PVZ openings/walling

Protoss Discussion
Ever since HOTS came out, all I see, or in other words, the only real way to stay alive from any kind of zerg rush is to Fast Forge expo. That cannon is so crucial, but the point is that there is not much you can do from there. It's not easy to do any other kinds of opening or builds besides that. I have not seen anyone wall in at their main/ramp anymore. Just something Blizzard can look into.

What are you're opinions on PVZ openings?
From what I've seen, Gateway openings can work, but, unless the Zerg is being particularly greedy, you're going to have a later expo, so you MUST use the opening to force units and/or kill Drones/Queens to make up for it.
Gateway opening is really good and make me think twice before I turn all my larves into drones.
What I'm trying to say is that it is really easy for zerglings to slip into protoss base without some kind of wall. I've seen early expos with gate opening/no forge with a quick zealot to block the entrance which works but rarely see it. I am wondering if there are other builds besides quick expos or if this was what blizzard intended for PVZ matches
What I'm trying to say is that it is really easy for zerglings to slip into protoss base without some kind of wall. I've seen early expos with gate opening/no forge with a quick zealot to block the entrance which works but rarely see it. I am wondering if there are other builds besides quick expos or if this was what blizzard intended for PVZ matches

Are you speaking of early Ling rushes or what?
FFE or Gateway both work just fine. If you Gateway expand you should have a Zealot / Stalker / MSC to deal with early Lings, followed by a walloff at the natural for later attacks.
It is actually worse to wall at your main ramp than to put your gateway near your nexus with a gateway expand. This is because vs. an early pool, your drones cannot protect your pylon if it is so far away. You can make a nice bubble around your mineral line with structures to protect you from mass speedling allins.

Gateways expands are perfectly fine economically if you keep tabs on zerg's third base. They just force a different type of game. Zerg can't take a 3rd before they have ling speed. If they take it too fast, you can just kill it with 3 gates and recall back. It is actually the best choice on akilon wastes because you have a very wide nat. ramp and a super safe third. You can have your cake and eat it too since gateway expo has so much faster tech.
What I'm trying to say is that it is really easy for zerglings to slip into protoss base without some kind of wall. I've seen early expos with gate opening/no forge with a quick zealot to block the entrance which works but rarely see it. I am wondering if there are other builds besides quick expos or if this was what blizzard intended for PVZ matches


SC2 in general used to be a lot of 1 base play, but the maps were a lot smaller back then. Pretty much every matchup (except mirrors) involve a fast 2nd base, because it is hard to punish your opponent for doing so. Usually by the time you scout it, if you haven't intended to fast expand yourself, there isn't much you can do about it.

FFE is by far the safest build you can go with in PvZ. Most Zergs go for a fast 3rd anyway, so not even having your 2nd running is going to pretty much kill you. Naniwa did very well at Dreamhack, placing second, with almost exclusively going for gateway expand, but I don't recommend it on ladder. Its very hard to put proper pressure on zergs without your +1 and +2 timings.

All of that being said, you need to have walls everywhere. Most people do not have the proper reaction times with the minimap and sentries to not have walls at their 2nd and 3rd bases, and pretty much everywhere.

05/10/2013 09:25 AMPosted by Pesto
Gateways expands are perfectly fine economically if you keep tabs on zerg's third base.

I have a hard time believing this, because the counter to seeing a gateway expand is taking a fast third base as zerg, if not immediately after seeing gateway expand. Without your early +1, lings do considerably better against all protoss units, and stalkers aren't any better against lings until you have +2. Early forges are almost COMPLETELY necessary in the current meta, unless you insist on investing a lot into skytoss into robotech, with impeccable phoenix control.
I have a hard time believing this, because the counter to seeing a gateway expand is taking a fast third base as zerg, if not immediately after seeing gateway expand. Without your early +1, lings do considerably better against all protoss units, and stalkers aren't any better against lings until you have +2. Early forges are almost COMPLETELY necessary in the current meta, unless you insist on investing a lot into skytoss into robotech, with impeccable phoenix control.


That is completely wrong. You cannot defend the warpgate timing of gateway openers without ling speed. It sounds like you've never tried it. Or you didn't read my whole post. Zerg can still take a fast third but not as fast as vs. forge openers. The reason why should be obvious.
Yes early ling rush...There's really no other opening you can do in order to stay at an economy that is at a equal level to zerg unless you forge fast expo.
It's physically impossible to finish an FFE before a 6 pool hits you so you're forced to pylon your mineral line and cannon it up before the lings bust your forge and other pylon.

Stupid ridiculous and unfair.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8796680364
@Navi
actually on some of the new ladder maps its possible. but yes on most maps your correct(just stop making probes untill your safe and get a pylon and cannon in your mineral line)
I cannon rush/contain and pretty much hard counter 6pool... Generally does fine vs most FE builds as well, since i can stop the expo and keep them in their base until they make roaches. Occasionally sucks against 10p if the zerg scouts early enough though, since he can just macro behind his opening without making more than like 2-4 lings to deny my cannon and forward gateway before they finish building.

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