Vs terran. They same unit comp every game

Zerg Discussion
This goes from silver (where it put me) all the way up to master from the looks of PsY's videos and streams.

Just played two games in a row. Both vs Terran. Guess the build? MMM.

So first game, my tried and true fungal + banelings. He was out producing me off of one base. I lose, of course.
Second game. Fungal + Roach. Nope. He out produces me off of one base. I make 5 bases getting as absolutely many Fungal + Corrupt / Brood Lord as I can. MMM. He was out producing me on two bases. He had like, a thor, a tank, and 3 vikings. Not that he needed them.

I want to know why it feels like this is wholesale being ignored.

They sit there with impenetrable MMM balls dropping at their leisure, it doesn't matter if you stop one drop or 10 or 100. They're fine. No ability to punish whatsoever. Just sitting their with their stupid MMM balls. Toss a few Widows and a tank in the base behind the wall.

I feel like Fungal should be doing a HELLL of a lot more of something. I drop three fungals on the MM and the Medivacs are still, "lalalalaaaaa......." and if, IF I wipe out the first wave he already has another group rallied and everything's fine becauuse Medivacs have like infinite energy.

I don't get it. I really, really don't get it. Theoretically if we lose enough, won't the metrics show an issue since Bliz isn't listening to anyone below tourney-level?

Terran units are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO cost effective it's sickening. So cost effective! Lean masters of the entire universe, while Zerg is just waste. Waste waste. Wasted potential. Every unit is wasted potential. I feel like Zerg need an entire suite of not buffs, but legitimate fixes (like what the Reaper got) a full overhaul, and do something about Medivacs... They're way, way, way, way, way too powerful.
banelings?
06/26/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Sanlumiere
banelings?


Yep first game was marathon Fungal + Bane over and over and over and he was outproducing me off one base. By the time I carefully engaged, then wiped out the army a second was coming with the Medivacs patiently waiting.

Isn't it time Zerg be able to open engage armies again like they used to? When was it decided, approved, and then everyone became complacent and accepted that the Zerg were going to be this terrible, barely situational sub-race?

SC2 HotS is basically TvP with Zerg sitting out for the 2nd launch in a row.
You're in plat. Just like me. Do what I do.

Start off with a quick 2 base, 2 off gas at speed, put them back on after, and get a third around 44 supply. Then, saturate your bases, and get fast hive tech while making ONLY lings/banes. This is all you need until your ultras some out.

Keep up with your upgrades, try not to get dropped, etc, and wait for ultras to get out for you to attack, unless you think you can win a base attack.
You're in plat. Just like me. Do what I do.

Start off with a quick 2 base, 2 off gas at speed, put them back on after, and get a third around 44 supply. Then, saturate your bases, and get fast hive tech while making ONLY lings/banes. This is all you need until your ultras some out.

Keep up with your upgrades, try not to get dropped, etc, and wait for ultras to get out for you to attack, unless you think you can win a base attack.


I like it, I just want to ask a few things. Probably just one thing.

The reason why I haven't done that strat since WoL it just feels like it can be kited forever. You lose so many.

You're implying you play defense with lings/banes until ultras, right? So you sit at like 100 supply of workers / lings / banes / queens until ultras? Then 200/200 ultras and that'll do it?

What's the engagement look like, try to bane your way through the ball and then mop up with Ultras?

I'm not trying to be snarky I'm really curious. I don't make posts to just rant and complain. I really want to understand what's going on. Zerg is so wildly cost ineffective that I don't understand the meta anymore and I'm not sure after SC BW that I ever did.

Would love to see a replay or two. Do you stream or upload your vids?
A replay(s) would help a lot. ggtracker is also a useful as hell tool to see if you could have macro'd better.

From my 1st hand experience, poorly/barely micro'd bio will lose to their hard counters. If you went Ling/Bling/Muta (which if I'm not mistaken should be the counter to pure bio) and he had no force multipliers (like mines or tanks), his engagements should have been massively inefficient. I'm only gold league, but I'll share some of my experience as a low league Terran. For the most part, it boils down to me missing a production cycle compounded by army mis-control. My wins are also usually due to my opponent not macro-ing (i.e. he doesn't keep up with injects, gets supply blocked, not enough workers, or vice versa) well enough and thus I usually out zerg a zerg.

Ex 1 - Forget C-Shields, behind on upgrades, and only feebly harass zerg until they reach hive. Ultras come, (mind you this was an open field engagement as I was just outside my 3rd in an old Newkirk map) gg. I personally named the replay of that game to HotS opening re-enactment because those ultras just rolled through my guys like in the Opening.

Ex 2 - I lose my army b/c of my horrid splitting, Zerg was macro-ing behind the engagement and re-maxes while I missed a production cycle. 150 food zerg army storms my bases. gg

Ex. 3 - Fighting on creep is w/o improper scouting is usually a death trap. I lost many a game/army that way. So spread that creep I guess.

Though I guess, when you get to Plat+, army control probably plays a larger part to the game. Hence my doubts of whether or not I have the APM to properly play bio higher up on the ladder.
You're in silver. Macro better. Macro is more important than any strategy and you can easily get to diamond with no strategy whatsoever but strong mechanics.

You're being outproduced because you're macroing worse than they are. It has nothing to do with imbalance, composition, ect. Focus on saturation and production.
06/26/2013 06:59 PMPosted by Fall
You're in silver. Macro better. Macro is more important than any strategy and you can easily get to diamond with no strategy whatsoever but strong mechanics.


In short, make more stuff. If you have three times as many of anything as he has marines, it doesn't much matter what you do. With a strong enough economy, roaches could explode after a single attack and you would still be able to make it out of silver.

Just work on your macro. Learn and drill the drone benchmarks. Learn to scout cheese. Focus on that more than on composition or any sort of army comp. Composition/counter/etc is the sort of thing you work on when you're in the high plat range, after your macro is solid.
You're in silver. Macro better. Macro is more important than any strategy and you can easily get to diamond with no strategy whatsoever but strong mechanics.

You're being outproduced because you're macroing worse than they are. It has nothing to do with imbalance, composition, ect. Focus on saturation and production.


I'm actually fairly sure it's because of imbalance. I'm pretty sure that Terran's units are significantly more cost effective and less situational than Zerg.

I'll learn how to "macro better" but Terran is incredibly, ludicrously broken right now and Zerg is in the back seat while T and P drive, getting screamed at for asking to stop to use the bathroom on a long drive to somewhere Zerg didn't want to go in the first place.

06/26/2013 07:05 PMPosted by Ataraxia
You're in silver. Macro better. Macro is more important than any strategy and you can easily get to diamond with no strategy whatsoever but strong mechanics.


In short, make more stuff. If you have three times as many of anything as he has marines, it doesn't much matter what you do. With a strong enough economy, roaches could explode after a single attack and you would still be able to make it out of silver.

Just work on your macro. Learn and drill the drone benchmarks. Learn to scout cheese. Focus on that more than on composition or any sort of army comp. Composition/counter/etc is the sort of thing you work on when you're in the high plat range, after your macro is solid.


I used to be high-plat. I think that's part of my problem. The first thing on my agenda from these conversations is I need to be injecting larva a lot, lot, lot, lot faster and more efficiently.

Once I have that down, and start making crit-mass of whatever I think I need, I'll relearn unit comps and engagements.

Thanks all that provided positive feedback. I think Zerg can work, but I still think it's taking 3x the effort. I don't mind the skill, but the effort is exhausting and at some point that should be balanced as well. This isn't an arcade fighter where the games are less than 3 min long, if that makes sense.
Against Terran, I find them having similar openings: Reaper harass, then hellion harass, sometimes followup by banshees, then widowmine defense as they start massing MM or hellbats for drops.

And I have similar defense against all of it: Queens to stop reapers, and /or creep spread and speed upgrade on lings to 100% stop reapers. With queens and fastlings surrounds, it stops hellions. I would need spine crawlers if they build too much hellions while my queens block the ramp. Queens stop banshees. Spore Crawlers stops widowmine drops and it helps ward of MM drops. By the time he starts doing MM drops, my Mutas should be there to put them down while my lings/blings patrol places where Terran would do the drop.

Then I start having Ultras to start my offense with 2 or 3 Overseers for minesweeping after my Overlords group tank the mines. Mixed with banelings and few lings, one Terran base would go down. Planetary Fortresses are my Ultras favorite dinner... LOL. Then I retreat and remax then I hit another Terran base and it would go down. Rinse and repeat and GG.

That's how my game goes on most of ZvT games. I believe I have more than 60% win rate against them at my casual level. I prefer such games... way better than boring ZvZ.
It sounds like every strat end game is Ultras. I don't mind that, and yes they are significantly better. I don't think Broods are specifically any worse than they used to, but T and P have surpassed them in terms of counters.

I would also agree EVERY single game is Reaper open. I forgot to mention that earlier. I just put my overlords there and Zzzz wait for the reapers while I work on my 15 and 2nd hatch. Every game on schedule. I don't mind.

I haven't had to deal with widow mine or hellion/hellbat drops yet. It's always MMM.

I like the idea of like muta/roach or muta/ultra being a weird sort of counter to MMM and I can theory why in my head. Am I right? The bounce and cleave royally hose up the Medivac's ability to heal well?

You need the Ultras to soak damage and get the AI's attention while the mutas either continue to bounce or focus down Medivacs? If the MMM is at crit mass which they about would be by the time you had your 6-8 ultras and 20 mutas wouldn't they butcher your 3/5 ultras and just melt them and turn around and melt the mutas a second afterward?

I really want to see a replay where this works so I can see it. I'm really good at theory but 3/5 Ultras still melt melt melt like everything else up against crit mass. If your mutas even got there a hair early they melt. So you run some lings in? They melt. I don't get it. I can see it working if they aren't crit mass though. Is that where you toss in some viper clouds like how plague swarm used to work? Totally circumvent crit mass Marine Marauder? Force them into fight or flight, and the ultras catch them either way... and hope that many stims actually does wear out the Medivacs?
Well I'm a casual player in gold league, have been in gold since the last season of wings. Since HotS I have a 69% win rate against terran making it by far my best match up. Sounds like your engaging poorly with your lings/banes to me. By the time they have a lot of medivacs out you should be able to have either muta's or infestors out to compliment your ling/bane army in the midgame. If you don't set up the engagement with a terran army where you get a full surround you are playing into their hand
You can use festers with your ling bane ultra army, i tend to harass with muta while keeping my upgrades up and droning ,also try not to fight over widow mines and if you can get a good surround or run past the rines the mine will prob to more dmg to the Terran army then yours , and if you can catch him on creep them thats even better by the time the late game hits youll be on 5 bases , 3/3 , ling bane , ultra infester , and crushing his mmm


You need the Ultras to soak damage and get the AI's attention while the mutas either continue to bounce or focus down Medivacs? If the MMM is at crit mass which they about would be by the time you had your 6-8 ultras and 20 mutas wouldn't they butcher your 3/5 ultras and just melt them and turn around and melt the mutas a second afterward?

I really want to see a replay where this works so I can see it. I'm really good at theory but 3/5 Ultras still melt melt melt like everything else up against crit mass. If your mutas even got there a hair early they melt. So you run some lings in? They melt. I don't get it. I can see it working if they aren't crit mass though. Is that where you toss in some viper clouds like how plague swarm used to work? Totally circumvent crit mass Marine Marauder? Force them into fight or flight, and the ultras catch them either way... and hope that many stims actually does wear out the Medivacs?


When you see marines or MM's, dont ever leave your Ultras with no BANELINGS. Ultras alone would melt even with 5/5 upgrades. You bring banelings with them so that when MM stop from their stutter step, they blow from your banelings. They will be on full retreat when they see Ultras with banelings tricking you to step to their widowmines. That's why you need to have a group of Overlord to tank before Ultras come. Even with widowmines though, they are no match against Ultras. The one that kills the MM are BANELINGS, Ultras are just their escorts. Medivacs healing are useless coz MM would just explode from Blings. Force them to retreat. You can catch them if you are on creeps. That's why creep spread is important. MM should retreat to their home base or they get annihilated. Once they run to their main base, switch direction toward their expansion and kill it. Let the Ultras eat their planetary fortress while your banelines on standby mode behind them. When you lose some units or lose a lot of banelings, retreat... have your queens heal your Ultras and remax. Then rinse and repeat.

Dont use Mutas as main units, they're expensive and they melt against marines. You only need few Mutas to intercept those drops. Ultras can withstand marines. Banelings make marines run in panic. Ultras mixed with banelings, thats a combo that kills MM. You would need support units if you want .. like Infestors or Vipers.
its simple... the answer to MMM was is and always will be Banelings. As the game goes on, Banelings become better because it becomes increasingly harder for Terran to micro manage large groups of units. In equal cost and equal upgrades, banelings can roll right into pretty much any Terran composition and leave almost nothing left. banelings = burst damage. medivacs are much better agienst slow consistant damage like roaches. ROACHES SUCK VS BIOBALL!!!!! the only case u might need a few is if you want to burrow and snipe some tanks in the back or to add a little support damage to ur ling bling ball.

Microing ling bling is much easier than the split and stutter step micro needed to fight agienst ling bling. so assuming you and ur opponent are of equal skill, have same size army, have same micro ability, then every fight should end with you having a handfull of lings and them flying away with medivacs... untill your spire finishes. then your 6-10 mutas (which is all you really need) can clean up those medics as the fight comes to an end and you can get some free harass while you replace that army and expand.

MMM is tough. you have to have excellent map vision and be prepared with a spine and a spore at every base to buy you a little time. it is essential that you MEET THE TERRAN AT THE DROP!!! if you do this you can get a lot of free units.

like any matchup as zerg you need to wait until you are stronger than them to attack. Terran is a great defensive race, but force them to play that way and you will win with your T3 siege units. that is what they are. SIEGE BREAKERS!!! ultras and broods are not designed for open battlefield or defensive fights.

playing zerg properly is simple in concept. spread creep spread ovies and MACROMACROMACRO!!! when you see something coming build its counter unit if u have it and stream in some extra lings for support. the idea is to meet them in the middle of the map or to have your base swarming so they dont want to come in. if the game goes on this way you can easily get your expansions and defend them all with your superior speed on creep. then get hive and +3 upgrades and whichever T3 unit u prefer for the situation. WAIT FOR UPGRADES TO FINISH then stomp on their faces. if they didnt die retreat remax and attack. by the time you are on T3 you should easily have 5 bases with at least 8 gas (assuming 2 are used up) this is plenty to support a t3 army.

gl guys remember banelings > all

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