Call to Action: August 19 Balance Testing

General Discussion
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Where is overlord drop/speed in same upgrade?!
Overseer is awesome, now it can actually keep up with army.

Vipers now actually dont feel gimped anymore. Before having to get infestation put, get hive, then build them, then consume before even being able to use them.

Now you can actually do all that and they work right when you make them. very nice.

Still wish you would take a look at burrow, 100g is still way to expensive, for its limited use.

Well, I doubt they ever will but if they do lower its cost, then it would end up going full circle to how it was in early WoL beta. Where it was 50 min 50 gas hatch tech.

Can not remember the reason behind their change to 100/100 and Lair tech though.

I do remember why they nerfed the hell out of Nydus Canal.. and I still think at least one of its aspects should be reverted back but that is just my opinion.
08/15/2013 11:33 PMPosted by TBird
I see they're not testing any Protoss buffs. Have Protoss been dominating the pro scene lately?

protoss buffs? are u mad ?
So I've played a few games, I think only a couple tvps, and I'm still working on this post.

Right now, Two base mech all ins are very bitey at this level. You can grab a third a fourth gas really early, grab a starport, and chugg hellbat tank banshee and it hits them pretty good.

However, Mech still seems shaky in the macro game. The strength of certain deterrent counters (Immortals for tanks and thors, phoenixes for heavy viking and banshee play, tempests for pretty much anything nix mines and ravens, Collosi and Ht for Mines) are just so damn hard and supply effective.

I think the main problem here is still the supply efficiency of mech per it's mobility tradeoff. This supply efficiency seems to correlate most with the zone control (or lack there of) of the tank.

Mech's viability is determined by how well it holds ground. The starport should be there for aa and surgical strikes/harass primarily. Otherwise you end up on this fulcrum where your mech comp teters between breaking even on the ground through an overcommitment, leaving you grossly susceptible to the air, and vice versa

Here's some glaring issues I still see.

Mines make poor Immortal killers because of the low range, attack delay, and mobile splash of the death-ball. They get focused down so hard, and then tanks get rolled. MInes and tanks don't compliment each other at all.

I realize mines were envisioned as "suicide bombers" and were intentioned to be a new core unit, but they need serious help in this match up. They have next to little utility it seems, bedsides bombing mineral lines, which terran has a bunch of redundant tool sets for.

Ghosts do help, they allow you to trade even. But it seems silly that they are a crutch needed to allow you to do so. I mean, mech is supposed to be self sufficient on the ground right? You're already trading mobility and high gas costs for firepower. What really hurts though, is getting them out in a gas starved comp. Two gate robo timings can really hurt if you play non-aggressive mech. IN large numbers though, nothing is gonna stop the immortals with some star or gate support from tearing you a new one, because tanks and thors don't posses enough stopping power to focus down the cheaper and more mobile comp (another thing, the toss player can just pull back and recharge, and come back for more).

So I don't really see how banshees can save mech. I mean, what exactly do they bring the table? Per cost and supply it's better to get ghosts or even mines to drain shields away, as opposed to letting banshees tickle them to zero. They are not durable-at all, and any sort of splash just mangles them. Sure, they can force some anti air,but even then you're in a bit of a catch 22, because they have their own set of deterrent counters.

Lastly on the commentary bit, I think the biggest reason why this was added was to allow terran to transition. But I mean, with all those terribly strong counters on the ground and air, why even bother? I mean, MMM is really hard to pull off, but at least you can make the game interesting.

So here's some suggestions that have been thrown around quite a bit (and some that are being tested in the Community Suggestion Map)

Perhaps they should receive a small buff to allow them to preform better at zone control. Probably an anti armored buff of some sort would suffice.

I really have not a clue, but these guys need help without breaking tvz. Maybe more single target damage for a splash radius nerf? Less attack delay after hi sec?

They trade ludicrously well right now, even after emp. They are cheap, powerful, and robust enough to keep coming and just bursting you down. Hardened shield is an interesting ability, in fact, I like it. But it is so one sided against mech, while being balanced for say-roaches. They negate 80 percent of tank damage and 66 percent of thor damage. Perhaps we could Implement a threshold modifier where a certain percentage of an enemy's attack is decreased. Or, what if we re-tested a five range Immortal? The 1/1/1 has been nerfed (and was cited as the main reason for the buff in the first place) and toss early game received quite a few buffs in the form of the msc and stargate openers. I realize this might make it "clunky" but should not powerful units have some form of weakness. Mech has a major operating occupational hazard, tanks and thors must be spread and precaution must be kept against flanks. This could even be a buff, because the Immortal can serve as more of a buffer unit when placed ahead of stalkers and the like. Point is, I think mech needs a clearer cut answer to the immortal problem. Could the mine step up? I think so.

These guys are uber strong, and they from a really powerful end game mass comp vs mech. Maybe some sort of damage or hp nerf?

The bio tag seems like a major hindrance right now. Hellbats seemed to never really catch on at the highest echelons because they can't split and kite like MM can. Perhaps we should remove that?

Thank you for your time, I will play more and re-edit this.
Mines make poor Immortal killers because of the low range, attack delay, and mobile splash of the death-ball. They get focused down so hard, and then anks get rolled. MInes and tanks don't compliment each other at all.

How are you placing them?
08/19/2013 08:53 PMPosted by TerranicII
Mines make poor Immortal killers because of the low range, attack delay, and mobile splash of the death-ball. They get focused down so hard, and then anks get rolled. MInes and tanks don't compliment each other at all.

How are you placing them?

If I have a large amount group, I run them in a few groups, and burrow them at about range two. Usually I can get a good cluster to leap frog each other effectively.

I mean, Mono battle on mono battle, it's a pretty close matchup. Trouble is though, They die so quick to a stutterstepping deathball (mobile splash), even when your burrow them (because attack delay) and the rest of the mech army gets left in the dust, cuz immobile.

This is why I mentioned low tank-mine synergy. They don't seem to cover each other well.

Pre-placing them is just asking to toss player to kill them ahha. They won't hit anyhting unless a zealot or stalker (with stalker range bug) waltzs along)
I'm going to try out the revised map soon, but as far as reducing the amount of things to manage for zerg, think you guys could consider bringing back burrow charge (autocast) for ultralisk? Right now, they need to be manually managed in order to get them anywhere near the front lines, and vipers are too valuable, expensive, and squishy, to put them in the front and have them move the ultralisks. (Far more effective to use them for yoinks on big units or blinding cloud on a few units, especially since they have limited energy on a battlefield.) The problem gets even worse when you have multiple ultras in a pack. Burrow charge, even without damage/stun/knockback would probably be more effective than an extra 50 health. SC2 below platinum $50 join up
hey david kim,

"Q: Terran is the strongest race in BW. But Protoss is stronger in SC2. Have you thought about changing race?

Flash: I am still regretting about that even to today. When I first played SC2, I was already thinking that Protoss is really good. Even now I still think that. The management of SC2’s Protoss is exactly the same as BW’s Terran. First, you defend, then you produce your composition, and then move out. The most urgent thing about SC2’s Terran is to ameliorate mech. In BW, going bio or going mech is a choice and will make your opponent guessing and confused. But now SC2 is 100% bio, so you can’t play mind game and you don’t have strategic choice. "

god has spoken, fix mech!
the upgrade change will change nothing
^ Yes that was a great and suprisingly depressing interview. Flash needs that Razer Ruler though =D
ofc he is depressed......... he has to do the same thing (bio all day, err day) 24/7. if my job was always the same thing, i would consider to quit.....
Personally I think that's why Flash won't be as successfull in SC2as he was in BW. He just won't find the modivation to stay on top form....poor guy.
I am just wondering why you guys won't consider undoing the infestor speed nerf that happened long ago during the patch zerg era. Now that Infestors aren't seeing as much use, reverting the change would be a great idea to help late game tvz. Also the infested terran nerf should be looked into as well.
08/20/2013 02:18 AMPosted by zOne
I am just wondering why you guys won't consider undoing the infestor speed nerf that happened long ago during the patch zerg era. Now that Infestors aren't seeing as much use, reverting the change would be a great idea to help late game tvz. Also the infested terran nerf should be looked into as well.

So we can just go right back to the way it was before?
That's pretty much what I thought would happen with the Viper, oh well.

On the Ultralisk - Please stop with these hp/dmg buffs already, and bring back burrow charge. The Ultralisk is a unit which is weak because it is a melee unit which takes up a lot of space, and can't fit through chokes. Also, it requires absolutely no micro in its current form, which makes it a very boring unit. Bringing back charge which requires a little micro would be great, I really don't understand why you removed it in the first place. No matter how much health you give the Ultra, it is still going to get stomped by stutter-stepping stimmed Marauders, and it is nothing but a meat shield if it can't attack.

I'm not saying it would be balanced right now if you just put charge back in, a dmg or hp nerf would probably be required to compensate.

Also, I don't think the overseer change is enough, please consider some kind of small change to the widow mine (splash radius or splash damage reduction vs bio might be the right move).
Overseers are now the same speed as oracles (faster than viking/voidray/corruptor). Overdone somewhat I wonder - how is DT play going to work vs zerg now?

And like others have said, the way to fix mech is to fix the unit dynamics (in particular, the tank and its counters). I like the upgrades how they are now - 5 upgrades for each race, and it allows meching players to mix in air without you getting superpowered air units for free (or bio players getting +3 hellbats vs P just because they made +3 vikings). But let's look at the tank - 125 gas, 3 supply, long build time. Gets roflstomped by immortals, voidrays and can't even get two shots off vs a group of lings before they close the distance. In the meantime they're supposed to counter armoured units but they don't - marauders (with stim), stalkers (with blink), colossi and even roaches laugh at them. Then there's the 8-second penalty every time you want to move a tank slightly further forward.

With larger maps, buffed immortals and nexus cannon, 1-1-1 is no longer a threat. Zerg were never scared of tanks anyway (it's the marines that are OP - and yes I actually do think they are). So many mech hard-counters exist - especially in HOTS with the SH and buffed VR. So mech simply needs to be able to compete with bio. Here's some ideas for buffs - obviously not all intended to be applied at once!

- increase tank damage in siege mode to 40 (60 vs Armoured), or more
- increase tank HP to 175
- decrease tank supply to 2
- decrease tank gas cost to 100
- improve tank splash damage and/or radius
- introduce upgrade for tank at armoury that increases primary target damage (like the campaign, but not 100 damage!)
- increase viking base armour to 1, or HP to 150 (so they don't get melted by VR and tempest)
- increase viking ground mode damage (makes them useful if P tech-switches)
- decrease raven build time from 60 to 50, or make them reactorable
- increase battlecruiser ATA damage to 8, from 6 (watch a battlecruiser fight a corruptor and you'll see why)

Or these nerfs to anti-mech counters:
- decrease tempest shields/HP to 100/200, from 150/300
- decrease tempest damage vs Massive to 60, from 80 (also brings BLs back into the picture slightly)
- decrease immortal damage vs armoured to 40, from 50
- increase maximum amount of damage allowed through by hardened shield to 15, from 10 - or change to a % reduction
- nerf colossus speed (I think I made a post earlier in this thread explaining why - siege units are meant to be immobile)
- nerf marauder attack speed when stimmed (also helps the ultralisk)
- nerf ling and/or roach speed off creep (Protoss might actually be able to take a third base on the first try!)

Of course, some of these will impact other matchups and may require a tweak here or there. That could come in the form of buffing some units that need it, such as the carrier, hydralisk, mommaship and BL: win-win if you ask me.

I think the ultralisk buff is a bad idea. If you are going to buff something then buff the broodlord, you don't see them all that much nowadays.

That or buff the hydralisk in late game by moving it's range upgrade to hive but making it +2 range instead of +1.
Why is it that it feels like you guys aren't giving up on mech but there are so few changes to mech? Mech is underperforming so hard, would it really hurt to try more than 1 change/buff to mech than just the upgrades?

I like the idea of Hellions being +9 attack +5 to light instead of +8 and +6 to light, it'll help give mech more map control and a stronger army if they opt to use more hellions than hellbats. Hellbats are great for your army and harassing, but they don't give the fun (and powerful) map presence that hellions do.
Well, the problem in ZvT right now is that the transition from ling/bane/muta to Hive, Ultras and 3/3 costs so much gas.
What might help against that would be to remove Pathogen Glands and let the infestors start with the additional energy without it. It would save you 150 Gas which is as much as Hive costs.
That change would only make a difference during the transition since it's a big difference if you have 3 or 4 infestors, while it wouldnt really bring back mass infestor play since the difference between 29 and 30 infestors is neglectable.

What would be awesome too (less for balance than for promoting the use of it) would be a reduction of the energy you need for Contaminate. 125 is so much.. :D
Instead of making Hive tech require an infestation pit, I think they should consider allowing Hive to start with either a spire or an infestation. I feel this should help the transition from muta ling to ultra much more, which is the real issue at hand. This is just my view as a Terran player.

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