Dodging in matchmaking

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you people deviated this thread outside of proportions, this was originally a point in here @Future was just talking about how people leave the game just before it starts, and that is WRONG, despite the fact that you want to "race pick" or not, every single person that closes the process should be punished with a lose, or what is worth, with a number of warnings first the next time they log in to Btnet and they get all the loses they deserve in a row for trying to hoax the system.

That is only common sense.

Regarding Race Picking i think the follow...

I understand that people would like to choose which race to play, but honestly Rank is a training ground, or a closed tournament if you will, imagine that you went to the military and say to whoever you are being trained "i would only like to learn how to shoot snipers", you would get your !@#$ in line. RANK is that !!! is a serious training ground, and as i told you around 2 months ago or more @DragOn i am 100% AGAINST you making RANK you little funny playground for babies.

imagine the fact that RANK always trow you vs the same person over and over again, with your logic you could "change race" and then you are avoiding that person !, also what about MMR?, this is ELO system, imagine you could play a chess tournament and say I don't want to play players that are from Europe, i know is a far fetched comparison but the fact remains:

By saying you want to Race Pick you are actually saying you want to chose who are you playing against !!, and this is somehow in the same line as racism. Think about it, i say this because i know this will probably make the thread terminated.

I am not saying that race picking in a fantasy game is comparable to racism in the real world. I am just implying that is the same logic that makes out society not inclusive and therefore unfair for this that are beyond the scope of this answer. We must avoid logic that are proven to be wrong, you CANT and SHOULD NEVER be allowed to say "i don't want a person of this color in my soccer competition".

imagine the World Cup, imagine the fact that you could say Ok USA did not classified to the World Cup for Russia... so lets then get the US out of the CONCACAF and "nitpick" a place where we have better chances

THE ANSWER IS NO!!! now and forever.

now with that being said i understand some things... what i would like to see is this:

  • Once a player is lets say, above 2500 they would get into a different type of RANK where they can, just like a regular Starcraft Tournament, change races before the game starts, but only if the other player allows it.
  • But for everyone else of us mortals...

  • If we get a game that is RE you should be able to have a quick way of changing races, lets say you are playing against a person and you chose zerg, but then he is also zerg, we all hate zvz, you lose because hes micro is better... then you want to test the possibility of winning him you should be able to change races the second time !!! that i can agree, it should be a quick race change in the start screen. but here me out, only if the other player presses OK.All thishappens inside the 5 seconds frame that happens before the game starts there is no pause for that timer
  • But hear me out... i would hate to see the devs wasting any time in this, THE SHOULD NOT. This is not an important matter, team match making, ladder, better AI, BWAPI implementation, better lag contingency systems, and other quality of life features are much more important.

    i hope you understand now that by saying "race picking" you are going against the core fact that is the ELO competition system. You want to Race pIck? ho play some custom games. I agree that in RE games you should change races but only if other player allows it. At higher level lets say... 2500 people should go to a special RANK that helps them even classify to a real Blizzard tournament !, there they should be able to race pick.
    You people can downvote me all you like and say I'm wrong, but I'm just asking questions. I do wonder how tournaments which allow race picking deal with the situations I've described. Special points to hyfre for complaining about how derailed the thread is and immediately after writing a bible about the derailing topic
    The100You I agree people shouldnt be able to dodge, but the rest or your post and examples are misapplied.

    Did you even read my post on page one? Where I explained the difference between race picking and race dodging. I practice the former. All your examples are referring to the later. Im not avoiding any people on the ladder no matter what race or matchup they play. I absolutely want my ranked games to be a serious training ground and when im forced to offrace to play pvp or whatever other matchup i dont play in tournaments ever, i cant get that serious practice.

    Also I take ladder a lot more seriously than you I guarantee. Playground for babies lol who do u think i am
    That would be beneficial for the ladder. I'm sure they are players who avoid Zerg because they don't want to deal with zvz.

    Protoss could finaly play something else than pvp.
    Race pickin should at least be an option in an unranked queue. ZvZ is cancer and i don't wanna have to play it, for ranked? Sure w/e, masterin every MU is part of the game and improvin in it. I can't get over and coin-flippy and unfun it is, even ZvZ in starcraft 2 is more strategic and excitin than "DURRRRRRRRR I GOT A SPIRE FASTER THAN U I WIN XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXD" or "DURRR I GOT A FEW MORE LINGS THAN U AND U DIDN'T QUITE PERFECT THAT SURROUND ON YOUR MAIN RAMP I WIN XDXDXDXDXDXD"

    Seriously BW ZvZ has made me appreciate the existence of banelings so much lmfao. Even Day9 calls ZvZ a "non matchup" :^)
    Good players posting in favor of racepicking, with good arguments, and no-names posting against it, with no valid arguments. Gee, I wonder who to listen to... /sarcasm

    The only argument against it, that makes sense, has been presented by HediSlimane, where he says it will change the demographics of the matchups (eg. if most terrans switched to PvT instead of TvT, there will be less TvT. In that case, one one hand, you have people that don't enjoy so much TvP having to play it more, and people that enjoy TvT get to play it less, but on the other hand we have people that hate TvT having to play it less in favor of playing PvT which they prefer, so it kinda "balances out", in some sense.)

    Here I'm skipping the "this takes time to implement and is low on the priority list" argument. In my opinion, racepicking implementation should be moved up in the to-do backlog list, as it is affecting a good chunk of players NOW, as DragOn stated.
    Why race-picking on ladder right now would be bad:

    Currently as is, 100% of the foreign player base can play against each other with mmr as the only dictating variable. (player chooses to exit game that's on them)

    If race-picking is implemented some players might choose P with ZvP. While another P could choose ZvZ. Therefore these 2 players would never meet on ladder even within the mmr range thus creating a 2nd variable.

    Therefore the small 100% player pool would be reduced by between 10-30%.

    Once the player pool grows significantly I believe race-picking would be a good feature to add. But right now it would probably do more harm than good, catering to the benefit of a very small and biased subgroup.
    Strider the racepicker playing protoss with zvz in your example must be playing pvp pvt zvz. So as in my post on page one, this player wold probably pick protoss as his option against random/other racepickers. Then the zvp pvz pvt guy would pick protoss vs random/other racepickers as well. They would then play a pvp. 100% of players in the pool are accounted for in my method.

    Seriously guys everyone please read the thread before posting. Especially my post on page one, where Ive gone over several potential arguments against racepicking, and detailed a system that accounts for 100% of the playerpool.
    I know there are valid points against and in favor of race picking that have been made countless times in this forums in multiple threads already and that people used to do it a lot, but I personally do not wish to see this on matchmaking.

    1) Whatever race I am playing, I want to play against all 3 races evenly distributed. Mirror match ups would suffer in quantity (and possibly quality of game play) because of fewer opponents.

    2) I do not want to see longer queue times, because they are in comparision to other games already quite long actually.

    3) I do not want players to race pick according to the map pool. Balance (win rates) are heavily modified by the existing map pool - so if there is a map that favors T, there also are maps that help out P and Z and therefore it somewhat evens out the disadvantage of playing a match up on a map where your opponent is racially favored.
    Race picking could be abused - and if it can, it will be by some - by players picking the optimal match ups for the map pool, in which they are racially favored by statistics. This would be very noncompetitive. I do not want this to happen.

    I know you can veto maps, but that helps the race picker to pick favorable maps for the match up he chooses to play specifically. While you could veto to avoid certain unfavorable match ups yourself, you cannot veto the right maps according to every race picker... This would make the match making experience peculiar imho.
    Therefore if you allowed race picking on ladder, you would have to remove map bans, so that people would not potentially be able to abuse map statistics.

    I remember playing on Python and the hosts strategically pickig Terran on this map because it is imba for Terran. And if I wanted to play Terran too, they would kick me out of the game. Lol~

    Raining on a race pickers parade is not what I had in mind, sorry for that, but these are things that concern me a lot, and things that clearly would need to be addressed.

    The number 1 priority must be to keep the (match making) ladder as fair and competitive as possible, and I believe not allowing players to race pick is the right way in this direction.
    06/24/2018 03:09 AMPosted by SuDDenLife
    I know there are valid points against and in favor of race picking that have been made countless times in this forums in multiple threads already and that people used to do it a lot, but I personally do not wish to see this on matchmaking.

    1) Whatever race I am playing, I want to play against all 3 races evenly distributed. Mirror match ups would suffer in quantity (and possibly quality of game play) because of fewer opponents.

    2) I do not want to see longer queue times, because they are in comparision to other games already quite long actually.

    3) I do not want players to race pick according to the map pool. Balance (win rates) are heavily modified by the existing map pool - so if there is a map that favors T, there also are maps that help out P and Z and therefore it somewhat evens out the disadvantage of playing a match up on a map where your opponent is racially favored.
    Race picking could be abused - and if it can, it will be by some - by players picking the optimal match ups for the map pool, in which they are racially favored by statistics. This would be very noncompetitive. I do not want this to happen.

    I know you can veto maps, but that helps the race picker to pick favorable maps for the match up he chooses to play specifically. While you could veto to avoid certain unfavorable match ups yourself, you cannot veto the right maps according to every race picker... This would make the match making experience peculiar imho.
    Therefore if you allowed race picking on ladder, you would have to remove map bans, so that people would not potentially be able to abuse map statistics.

    I remember playing on Python and the hosts strategically pickig Terran on this map because it is imba for Terran. And if I wanted to play Terran too, they would kick me out of the game. Lol~

    Raining on a race pickers parade is not what I had in mind, sorry for that, but these are things that concern me a lot, and things that clearly would need to be addressed.

    The number 1 priority must be to keep the (match making) ladder as fair and competitive as possible, and I believe not allowing players to race pick is the right way in this direction.


    1) Ladder already suffers because the players cannot play the matchups they always do, so quality is lower, people quit/dodge games or don't play at all, people are not at their true rank, so their elo is artificially lowered or increased, time is wasted. Forcing them to play matchups they don't want will just make it worse, make them miserable, and possibly make them quit or not play ladder, hence ruining the ladder more. The number of mirror would not change that much, especially considering racepickers are the minority of players.

    2) Queue times would not change, you didn't read what DragOn wrote carefully enough. The system would search for players to match up (before figuring out the matchup), same as before. The matchup would be decided by the choices the players selected before searching for a game, also same as before. The only difference is that you would have more control over which race you play.

    3) This is not really a good or detailed enough argument. Non-racepickers could change races/matchups too, to get an advantage on such maps. But I'm pretty sure you're aware they won't. Why won't they change matchups? Because it's not trivial to get good in a new matchup.

    It's the same with racepickers, just because we play 3 different matchups doesn't mean we're good at all 9 matchups, and can switch at will to gain an advantage. We have to learn them as well.

    Another reason against this argument is that the maps are somewhat randomized, so you cannot change races/matchups if you don't know what map and matchup combination you will get. Sure, you can veto generally unfavorable maps, but so can non-racepickers.

    Also, since racepickers play multiple races, it's actually hard for them to skew maps in their favor, since if they get a particular map, they might get the race that is favored there, or they might get the race that does worse.

    ________________________

    In conclusion, implementing racepicking would make 10-15% players happy, without actually affecting the others in a negative way, and would be in line with keeping the 20 year traditional way of doing things going.
    What is race picking even? the possibility of me saying: i just want to play vs protoss? KeK why would anyone want to do that, i cant believe people like talking about this when its so obvious you delusional if you think that the rank button is a tournament, is just a ladder you dumb people, how can you even be considered good if your mmr only considers that you only like playing one or two matchups but you are just too weak to play your worst match up?

    how can people even defend race picking, why those people even exist? what do they want? the same thing as a custom game in a ladder that actually is build to separate the very best from the mediocre?, what are this people?

    if you want to play and chose you match up find a friend and play that match up, if you want to test yourself against the whole broodwar community then learn that the world wont adapt to you, and your mom is not there to help you when you lose.

    gezz also now that i read it again, people are leaving the game by closing the process so they don't play the match up the hate !!!!

    WTF !!! "·$%&·$$·/%&( why is this not punished? wtf is going on BLIZZARD get your shiat together !!!! how can you even allow this? scan those account and kick them.

    dont you people see that the only answer that matters in this thread is against you race pickers?, and i mean grant answer, they will find a definitive solution to your kind of low level trash, your account should get ban

    @quirinus everything you say is a complex argument that is honestly just a criminal justification for something that is incorrect, go check you standard you cheater.

    @Dragon the same as quirinus, even quirinus tried to make other !@#$ty points like: the balance is already crooked blah blah blah

    grow tf up or find another game, if your current mmr is because you close the process you should fell ashamed, you are utter trash trying to change the system to your will

    the argument that all tournament allow this is not valid because the ladder system in remastered is not a tournament !!! is a way to determine points in a balanced and fair way. can you understand that concept or are you sincerely the must dumb people i have seen in my entire life.

    somebody said that devs should say something about this, it would be nice for them to explain how the system works so this 8 year olds understand for once.
    So you would force players to race pick in order to not be disadvantaged. That would be a disgusting experience imo.

    06/24/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Quirinus
    Queue times would not change, you didn't read what DragOn wrote carefully enough.


    If there are less people playing mirror match ups then the queue times will increase for those. It is as simple as that. What DragOn wrote, does not change that and has nothing to do with this.

    Queue times will increase also because you would have a smaller player pool in which the match maker searches.

    Also, since racepickers play multiple races, it's actually HARDER for them to skew maps in their favor, since if they get a particular map, they might get the race that is favored there, or they might get the race that does worse.


    I disagree. If you only pick maps that are TvZ favored while vetoing all Zerg favored maps and pick e.g the following as your match ups:

    tvz
    tvp
    pvt

    Then you will never encounter Zerg on a map that favors Zerg. Most maps are even in pvt (besides people say that pvt is actually easier than tvp), so you have only great match ups.

    Also, since racepickers play multiple races, it's actually HARDER for them to skew maps in their favor, since if they get a particular map, they might get the race that is favored there, or they might get the race that does worse.


    Even if pvt is bad because the T favored maps favors your opponent, it does not matter because you will be T against P on that map. -->2 match ups in which you are favored and 1 poor match up or 1 match up in which you are favored with 2 even match ups is the result.

    Also this means effectively you are only learning 2 match ups. tvz and tvp from both perspectives. This gives you definitely an edge over somebody who also has to learn a mirror match up.

    This is not competitive.

    06/24/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Quirinus
    It's the same with racepickers, just because we play 3 different matchups doesn't mean we're good at all 9 matchups, and can switch at will to gain an advantage. We have to learn them as well.


    Surely match ups have to be learnt, still what matters is that it could potentially be abused. This potential alone is something that should not exist. Besides, as I said, you would only learn 2 match ups (tvz and tvp from both perspectives = easier than learning tvz, tvp and tvt).

    06/24/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Quirinus
    Non-racepickers could change races/matchups too, to get an advantage on such maps.


    Well, if they play Zerg they can veto all the maps which are Terran favored, but then they will have to face the pvz race pickers on PvZ favored maps.
    Racepickers veto against 1 race while non-racepickers would have to veto against 2 races.
    This sucks for those who do not race pick. Also forcing people to race pick, if they want to have an even match, is disgusting.

    06/24/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Quirinus
    The number of mirror would not change that much, especially considering racepickers are the minority of players.


    Considering my above stated points, many people would start race picking, even if they only have the feeling it may give them an edge. That is because people want to excel in a competitive environment. You think of race picker numbers as a static number, while in reality it is not; their number dynamically adjusts to the system, if the system rewards it. This also adds value to my argument about queue times.

    06/24/2018 03:09 AMPosted by SuDDenLife
    1) Whatever race I am playing, I want to play against all 3 races evenly distributed.


    This is an issue that you just dodged and is completely valid.

    06/24/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Quirinus
    Ladder already suffers because the players cannot play the matchups they always do, so quality is lower, people quit/dodge games or don't play at all,


    In conclusion, implementing racepicking would make 10-15% players happy, without actually affecting the others in a negative way.


    So on the one hand you state, there are only 10-15% race pickers (wherever you got that dubious number) and on the other you state how immensely the ladder is already suffering to devalue my point 1). Either there are only 10-15% race pickers or the suffering on the ladder is that great - not both. Decide on something, you cannot use both to argue, lol.

    In conclusion, implementing racepicking would make 10-15% players happy, without actually affecting the others in a negative way.
    (highlighting by me)

    It would affect me and others who feel like me in a negative way. It is not your place to say how others are affected by it, besides the point that you cannot possibly know that.
    06/24/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Final
    is just a ladder you dumb people, how can you even be considered good if your mmr only considers that you only like playing one or two matchups but you are just too weak to play your worst match up?
    #

    Thanks! Another reason why race picking would be noncompetitive.
    06/24/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Final
    What is race picking even? the possibility of me saying: i just want to play vs protoss?

    No, that's not right. Race picking is that you chose a different race based on the race of your opponent. You still have to get good at 3 matchups, one against each race. E.g. you play zvt, zvp and tvz or you have pvt, pvz and zvp.
    Sigh...

    1) Racepickers don't play less matchups, they still play 3, it's just they don't use the same race against the three possible races their opponents might use.

    2) Racepickers don't dodge a certain race, because they define a race to play against each of the 3

    These two points were posted by Dragon on page one, and I agree people should read that before complaining.

    The part Dragon isn't quite right about, is that racepicking DOES dodge games against other racepickers. Everyone is saying that it should work because whatever race your opponent is, a racepicker will have one race chosen and the matchup will happen. But that argument fails to consider that the other racepicker player doesn't have one race defined.

    Example:

    Player 1 picks:

    T when playing against Z
    T when playing against P
    P when playing against T

    Notice how I defined a matchup against each of the 3 races.

    Player 2 picks:

    T when playing against Z
    P when playing against P
    T when playing against T

    Again, all 3 opponent races are covered. Now plz explain, how on earth do player 1 and player 2 play against each other?

    This is what I meant by not making sense in a tournament environment. Some of you have said some tournaments have allowed racepiking before. Well I ask (genuinely, because im genuinely interested), how did they deal with this kind of situation?
    I agree with basically everything Quirinus is saying. It seems a lot of people dont know what race picking is and choose to post here anyway and pretend they have an informed opinion.

    @Final. Your whole post is talking about race dodging, I never advocated that. Read and comprehend my post on page1. Emphasis on comprehend
    06/24/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Final
    can you understand that concept or are you sincerely the must dumb people i have seen in my entire life.


    @Suddenlife. Queue times would not increase, there are still the same number of players in the pool. Mirror matchups would decrease by about 10% and non-mirrors would increase by about 10%. Actually the way this is going the queue times are going to increase if blizzard doesnt implement race picking, because some race pickers will just stop laddering and might even quit SCR. So lets say a 5% increase in overall queue time with no support. Also these mirror/non mirror ratios would go back to the way they were in BW for 18 years before SCR, where there were several extremely successful ladder systems that didnt use auto matchmaking. Again, mirror matchups are not going to disappear.

    People are already able to veto the maps that dont favor their race, and playing a matchup from both sides removes any abuse potential from that matchup. If anything, pure race players are able to abuse the maps more. If people attempt to learn an entirely new set of matchups in order to specifically abuse certain maps, good for them. Unless you are a brand new player, effort required to learn an entire new matchup is far greater than to get better at a current matchup on a difficult map. Also you cant kick people from your game in auto match making, your python issue was race dodging not race picking.

    I agree the ladder should be kept as fair and competitive as possible. It is not fair or competitive when I have to play offrace in one or more matchups.
    @Suddenlife again. Playing as a race picker being easier or harder has nothing to do with how the ladder system should function. Protoss for example is an easier race to play than terran or zerg at low levels, this is fairly common knowledge. Should playing protoss be banned or punished at certain MMR? I dont think so. I dont agree that race picking is easier either. Playing as two different races requires 2 different sets of mechanical abilities and build order structures that dont overlap. Playing only one race allows for overlap in both mechanics and build structure, making improvement in any of the 3 matchups a lot more transferable to the other 2.

    Most of your arguments are centered around whether race pickers can abuse maps or not. This actually doesnt affect your own play on the maps, whether some one else chooses to veto maps in a way that favors them or not. The statement that non racepickers are not affected should racepicking be implemented remains true. People can choose to be as abusive or non abusive as they want with the map pool. Are you going to pick maps that give you the highest winrate possible, or the best practice for tournaments possible? Your choice. It has very little to do with race picking. Maps and map pools will always favor certain matchups or races more than others, this will change whenever the map pool changes. Blizzard has also tried to implement the most popular, aka standard and well balanced, maps out there, so abusing the map pool is pretty difficult.

    The statement that suffering is great, yet there are 10-15% of racepickers remains true as well. Those racepickers all suffer greatly in the current system. It is not a trivial issue to be forced to offrace approximately 1/3 or 2/3 of games. Not only are you wasting time playing badly in matchups that you never wanted to, you can also never reach your true MMR and the games in the matchups you do play will also suffer because of that. The whole experience is garbage.

    Lets say I play zvp pvz pvt which I do. Lets also assume that all my regular matchups are 2500MMR, while my offrace PvP is 2000MMR. In the current system if I never used alt F4 and played protoss, maybe my MMR would eventually stabilize at 2250. So now my 2500MMR pvz and pvt are just crushing everyone at that level, the games are not good practice. And then in pvp im losing almost every game, playing a matchup I have no desire to learn and improve in. Its a waste of time. And thats not even the worst situation. What if I want to practice my zvp? My zvp at 2500, my zvz and zvt could be 2000 but probably even less like 1900 because I only play zerg with one matchup. So my MMR stabilizes at 2100. My zvp demolishes everyone there, its a joke, I can play super badly and still win. No worthwhile practice. Then in both zvz and zvt im again wasting time in matchups I dont want to play or learn, getting destroyed and wondering why Im even playing ladder. Maybe ill quit ladder and increase your queue times further.

    Im guessing someone out there is going to be like "dude just learn pvp and play one race like a man" in response to my racepicking problems. No. Ive played BW for over a decade, Ive played these matchups competitively, the skill and knowledge I have acquired would take months and years to replicate in another matchup. Aside from that, PvP has a rock paper scissors aspect which is undeniable and abhorrent to me.

    I was fine as a racepicker on BW Battlenet, I was fine PGTour, I was fine on ICCup, I was fine on Fish ladder, and If I had been competitive even before that I wouldve been fine on WGTour and even older ladders. SCR changed everything for racepickers, and it needs to be put to right.

    Please make it happen Blizzard
    @Achaean. Thanks for the support, but I have already addressed the issue of non matchup sharing racepickers. This is from page1

    06/22/2018 01:32 PMPosted by DragOn
    You simply add a "racepick" or similar tab beside the 4 race options. Once inside this option, you have 4 selections to make. Pick one race to play vs protoss, one to play vs zerg, one to play vs terran, and one to play vs random or other racepickers who i dont already share a matchup with. So in my case i play zvp pvt pvz and id fill those in, plus id pick pvr for randoms or other racepickers who dont share a matchup with me, such as a tvt tvz pvp player.


    So in your example, the tvz tvp pvt player would have to pick a race to play against random/other racepickers who he doesnt share a matchup with. Lets say he picks terran, because hes playing 2 terran matchups already. The tvz pvp tvt player would also have to pick a race to play vs random/other racepickers who he doesnt share a matchup with. Lets say he picks P. They would play a TvP.

    In regards to racepickers playing tournaments, the players simply talk it out. They might end up doing a RvR if they cant agree on anything. But I have to note that this situation has never occured to me even once, and Ive been playing in tournaments for many years. I cant name one player who practices tvz pvp tvt. In fact Ive only known of one racepicker ever who played double mirrors, some peruvian guy (forget his name) did pvp zvz pvt I think.
    Thanks Dragon for taking the time to clear that out. It seems to me the system is kinda convoluted, but if you add that 4th "race" then it's at least complete in theory. Funny about the tournament thing; I guess there was never enough race pickers for it to become an issue (players not agreeing)
    @Achaean To clarify, I have played many racepickers in tournaments, but never had a problem with deciding who would play which race. Its always someone who does both sides of a matchup, so if we share that same matchup (zvp/pvz) then one of us just picks a race first, maybe my opponent picks Z, and then id pick P. Its a very trivial issue who plays which side unless you have big weaknesses in your relative matchup strengths, or play on a really imbalanced map.

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