Story Forum

Oct 26, 2010 Welcome: Please Read! Welcome to the Warcraft Story Forum! This forum is here as a means for players to discuss the storylines of the Warcraft universe, as told in-game and through the novels, manga, comics, and short stories that Blizzard publishes. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct (http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct) and guidelines (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15252595157) before posting. Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion, demote unhelpful comments, and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) and a "thumbs down" (Dislike) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. Clicking the "thumbs down" icon will expand a drop-down menu which will include "Dislike," "Trolling, "Spam" and "Report" options. "Dislike" will rate the post down. If enough people dislike a post, it will be darkened, and with a lot of dislikes it will be hidden completely. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. While the community team will be moderating this forum as normal, members of the Creative Development team will also be monitoring discussions and looking for constructive feedback. Have fun posting on these forums, and good luck with your adventures in Azeroth!Lylirra1 Oct 26, 2010
Nov 9, 2010 Meet Creative Development What is Creative Development? Creative Development (CDev) is a "hub" within Blizzard, facilitating the development of ancillary products and services that tie into Blizzard's game universes. While there are several different divisions of CDev, this Warcraft Story forum focuses on the efforts of the Publishing division. What does Creative Development's Publishing division have to do with Warcraft's stories and lore? The Publishing division within Creative Development is the driving force behind every published story you've seen outside of the game: short stories, novels, comics, and manga. Who comprises the Publishing division of Creative Development? Publishing is made of two groups: Story Development: This group focuses on story idea creation, story outlining, and story development for licensed fiction, as well as for internally-written stories. Historians: This group is the repository for all Blizzard lore, providing counsel for the game development teams and the CDev Story Development group. What is the Publishing division's usual process for developing a story? Idea Generation & Outline Creation: Working with Chris Metzen and the designers on the respective game's development team, the Story Development team generates an idea and an outline for a story. The writer on the project is typically invited to our offices at this point in the project, so that they can be in on the ground floor of the story's creation. Story Development & Lore Checking: Over the course of the project, the Story Development team talks constantly with the writer, as well as with Chris Metzen and the game developers, in order to help hone the story into a Blizzard-quality tale. At the same time, our Historian team combs through the iterations of the story in order ensure that the story adheres to the universe's established canon. * Please note that the CDev Publishing division has only been fully staffed since early 2009, allowing for more resources and manpower to dedicate to each published product. What does the Publishing division hope to accomplish with this Warcraft Story forum? We'd like to give the community a chance to influence the development of our upcoming stories, so we're trying something new; this forum will serve as a direct line to our story developers. Please note that we're not looking for fully-formed stories - save those for the Global Writing Contest (which we operate and judge) - but rather we're looking for specific examples of what people like, don't like, and what they would like to see (story-wise) from us in the future. Lylirra0 Nov 9, 2010
Sep 7 Read This Before You Post For whatever reason, this forum is seeing a massive influx of new posters. Whether it's due to the imminent launch of an expansion (and the tidal wave of lore accompanying it) or just a surge of passion, I feel like I need to reiterate some ground rules and common courtesies. 1). Be Objective! Do not come into this forum and make threads that begin with "So and so is such a terrible character" or loaded questions with heavy bias, i.e. "Why is the Horde so evil?" Doing so is just going to incite other posters an inevitably turn the thread into a flame war. On certain occasions this can also be grounds for disciplinary action. Play nice and keep an open mind. We're here to discuss story elements, not argue over opinions. Try to think like a writer. This is especially true for highly controversial topics like the Forsaken. 2). This Forum Is Not For Fan-Made Fiction! Despite what the name may imply, the Story Forum is not for sharing or discussing fan-made material. It is for discussing officially sanctioned lore/stories only. In short, if it doesn't have a Blizzard logo, it doesn't belong here. That doesn't mean you're forbidden from linking any fiction you may have written (it can be useful in explaining your position on a topic, for instance) or posting the odd paragraph; however, copying large amounts of text or creating threads specifically for any fiction you've written will be deleted or moved. If you want to discuss your own material please take it to the fine folks at the World's End Tavern Forum (otherwise known as the RP forum): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1011637/ 3). If You Have A Question, Chances Are Someone Else Has Already Asked It World of Warcraft has a lot of content, and the expanded universe of Warcraft as a whole has even more. However, there are several very popular topics that get addressed again and again. Before you create a new thread please check through the past few pages to see if there's already an existing thread on your topic. Not only does this keep the forum nice and tidy but it benefits you as well. Long threads tend to already have a very healthy discussion of its topic, and you may find through reading it that your particular insight has already been brought up, discussed, and concluded. If not, it's always better to stimulate an existing discussion than to try and start a new one from scratch. Don't worry, those of us who frequent this forum do carefully read each others posts. You don't need to start a new thread to draw attention. Furthermore, the regulars of this forum get very sick of answering the same questions all day long. I know the Search function hasn't always been the kindest tool, but again please take a few moments to quickly browse through the first few pages. 4). We Are Not Your Personal Encyclopedia On that note, this is not a Q&A forum. Think of it like a book club. You wouldn't show up to your group meeting and then start asking everyone what happened in the last chapter. You're expected to do your own research before coming here and opening topics for discussion. If you're looking for some direction there are many very helpful resources at your disposal: The Story Starter Guide, a sticky at the top of this forum. It includes information and links to out-of-game novels that are a great investment if you're interested in the lore of Warcraft: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1008220832 WoWPedia (formally WoWWiki), a crowd-sourced wiki on nearly everything you could possibly want to know about the Warcraft universe. A superb first-stop and excellent reference material for discussions: http://www.wowpedia.org/Portal:Main TvTropes, while not specific to Warcraft or Blizzard, is a great way to familiarize yourself with various writing or storytelling techniques. Potentially confusing points in the story of Warcraft can seem much more approachable when you realize it's all just part of a larger plan, and many posters on this forum like to reference popular tropes. Be warned, this website will devour countless hours of your time: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage That said, if there's something that's notably vague or unclear, by all means bring it up! Just avoid questions that can be solved easier and quicker with a search engine than a forum post. 5). Back Up What You Have To Say Be clear and concise with what you're trying to say and provide as much source material as is helpful. The more information you provide, the easier it will be for others to understand and respond to what you are trying to say. This is especially true for potentially obscure in-game quests. 6). This Is A Warcraft Forum Blizzard has many successful franchises with many rich, engaging stories. However, this is a Warcraft forum. Any threads pertaining to Starcraft, Diablo, or any other Blizzard product aren't allowed. Each of those games has their own forums specifically dedicated for their own lore. The Starcraft lore forum can be found here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/1324400/ Diablo lore can be discussed on the Legacy Battle.net forum here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/3354994/ 7). Have Fun! This forum enjoys a very close relationship with its posters. Everyone here loves the work that Blizzard does, and on some level yearns to make it better. So be respectful to your fellow posters and don't make inflammatory attacks against Blizzard or members of its staff. This forum has a rather unique dynamic that is much... healthier than other forums, so don't come in here with a poisonous attitude. New ideas or insights are always welcome, as are humor and witty banter. Engage in topics that you find really exciting, but don't openly scoff at those that don't. Don't be afraid to change your mind. The past, present, and future are all fair game. Just be mindful of the rules and common courtesies, and above all else, have fun geeking out. Oh, and the Like and Dislike buttons exist for a reason!Odok116 Sep 7
Nov 9, 2010 Story Starter Guide Looking for more Warcraft information, but don't know where to start? Whether you've played Warcraft I, II, or III, these books will showcase the people and events that have shaped the Warcraft universe over the last few (in-game) decades: Rise of the Horde by Christie Golden - https://gear.blizzard.com/us/category/books-art/warcraft-rise-of-the-horde-book Set before the orcs invade Azeroth for the first time, this story explores what the orc race was like before its clans were forged into a single savage Horde under the influence of the demonic Burning Legion. Part of the novel focuses on the orc Orgrim Doomhammer and his childhood friend, Durotan (who would later become Thrall's father). Other parts of the story depict the aging shaman Ner'zhul; his ambitious apprentice, Gul'dan; the mighty Grommash Hellscream; the wise draenei leader, Velen; and several other significant characters. The Last Guardian by Jeff Grubb - https://gear.blizzard.com/us/category/books-art/warcraft-last-guardian-book This is a good introduction to older human history in Warcraft, with emphasis on the events of the First War (Warcraft I). Medivh, the Guardian of Tirisfal, decides to take on an apprentice: the young mage Khadgar. As time goes on, Khadgar learns that a half-orc named Garona is acting as a secret emissary to the nation of Stormwind. While he and Garona try to reach an understanding, Khadgar realizes that Medivh's behavior is growing increasingly erratic. Ultimately he and Sir Anduin Lothar, the childhood friend of both Medivh and King Llane Wrynn of Stormwind, reach a terrible realization: Medivh, an incredibly powerful wizard, is under the control of Sargeras, Destroyer of Worlds, creator of the demonic Burning Legion. This novel is also in print as part of the Warcraft Archive. Beyond the Dark Portal by Aaron Rosenberg and Christie Golden – Currently Out of Stock in Blizzard Store, but can be found on Amazon.com here: https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Dark-Portal-World-Warcraft/dp/1416550860 This is a good introduction to Alliance and Horde history during the events of Warcraft IIx. Instead of starting a new war, the shaman Ner'zhul has decided to open dimensional rifts from the orc homeworld of Draenor into fresh new worlds to conquer. Horrified at the possibility, Sir Lothar's former lieutenant, the human paladin Turalyon, leads an Alliance expedition into Draenor to stop Ner'zhul. With Turalyon are the mage Khadgar and the ranger Alleria Windrunner (the older sister of Sylvanas and Vereesa). Alleria and Turalyon began falling in love with one another in the Second War, but Alleria turned her back on Turalyon after the Horde invaded Quel'Thalas and killed many of her people. In the midst of battle on an alien world, can their relationship be mended? And can the Alliance expedition reach Ner'zhul in time to stop the Horde from bringing death and destruction into new worlds? Lord of the Clans by Christie Golden - https://gear.blizzard.com/us/category/books-art/warcraft-lord-of-the-clans-book This story depicts the life of Warchief Thrall, starting only a short while after Thrall was born. Raised among humans as a slave, Thrall became a master gladiator before deciding that he would escape his slavery. The story depicts Thrall's subsequent friendship with Grom Hellscream, as well as Thrall's journey to rejoin his clan and master the shamanic arts. When a disguised Warchief Orgrim Doomhammer provokes Thrall into a challenge to single combat, Thrall fights his first truly momentous battle: a fight whose consequences will change the course of history. This novel is also in print as part of the Warcraft Archive. Arthas: Rise of the Lich King by Christie Golden - Currently Out of Stock in Blizzard Store, but can be found on Amazon.com here: https://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Arthas-Rise-Pocket/dp/143915760X This story explores the life and character of Prince Arthas Menethil leading up to the events of the Third War (Warcraft III) and Warcraft IIIx. As the plague of undeath ravaged Lordaeron, fear and desperation drove the prince to more ruthless measures until he had utterly lost his way. The story also explores the romance he shared with Lady Jaina Proudmoore, in addition to the unrequited love that the high elf prince, Kael'thas Sunstrider, bore for Jaina. The above stories are but the tip of the iceberg.Lylirra0 Nov 9, 2010
2m Good Horde Paladins don't make sense These days. Now if say the Blood Knights kept their original BC roots of taking their powers from a captured naaru, these "paladins" who gave up on traditional usage of the Light could fit with the darkness of the current Horde. Lady Liadrin and other BK's taking the path they took when the sunwell was restored, and taurens becoming sunwalkers fit far better with Thralls vision of the Horde then Sylvanas's version. So it feels paradoxical then for these people to be serving the Lich Queen, even after all the dirty things she has done. Not a hint of betrayal or dislike towards Sylvanas, or not wanting to war against Alliance paladins who they worked together to stop the Legion. Saurfang isn't the only horde hero who has a good reason to betray Sylvanas. Lady Liadrin was alive when a genocidal horde attacked her kingdom. She was their when an undead monster and his forces wiped out most of her kind. She was their when the blood elves were going down a dark path. Clearly she should be experiencing warning signs from her conscience. That sticking to being loyal to Sylvanas Horde is a very bad idea. Why isn't she written in a way that better respects her characterization? Blizzard gave them back the sunwell and set them on a better path. They did good in helping the draenei in WoD and fighting against the Legion, even gave them golden eyes. But sadly their now serving death, seemingly without question. Letting its forces grow stronger and further helping in destroying innocent lives.Desolina66 2m
3m Baine Bloodhoof Should be Gay and Here’s Why Look, I love you guys, but please don’t push Baine having a crush on Mayla. His interest has been left ambiguous for years and you’ve also been giving Baine much more attention as a character, which he’s really needed. As a character with rising importance, the spotlight is going to be on top of him and this would be a fantastic opportunity to give the LGBT community some representation with a character that’s amazing and kind like Baine. Ebonhorn could be an alternative to Mayla, I just think that Baine has huge potential and potential to give the community more healthy representations.Kaiorga206 3m
12m Player Choice and Saurfang I’ve been seeing a lot of people complaining about not having a choice about whether or not we help Saurfang against Sylvanas’s Dark Ranger hit squad. Personally, I don’t mind as A. We’ve never had that much choice in how game events unfold. B. I’m totally team Saurfang. However, I realize that not everyone is me. That a Forsaken Player (and possibly a Blood Elf Player, which I am as well) may feel some reluctance to turn on Sylvanas. So let’s explore the possibility of adding a little choice to this scenario. 1. Saurfang has a defined story arc. A direction the writers want him to go. As such he lives through this fight. Whatever choice we want to make, I don’t think an WoW is going to give us that much control over what happens. 2. However, we’ve already been given the option to choose whether we participate in Sylvanas’s sinister schemes before. At Lordaeron we could help spread her blight, or we could just take a gas mask and help get our soldiers out of there. In the end, the same events happened, but we felt we had more control over our own character’s morality at least. Perhaps a similar option could be given. Could we choose to stand aside and watch Lyana attempt to bring Saurfang in? Even try to help her, but then lose? Saurfang would then spare us and send us back to Sylvanas with the same message. Would it work? Would it be a better experience if you at least could choose your own alignment, but not the overall direction of the plot?Samurok8 12m
15m What fanbase have become? I don't understand why part of the fanbase wishes faction conflicts to end. This is the whole point of warcraft. We need more Garrosh. We need more Garithos. Dwarves, Night Elfs and Worgens must become more independent attacking the horde against Anduins will. We need more characters and more deaths. If the game back to "peace between factions to defeat a common enemy" state i'll definitively quit this game.Damor17 15m
17m Imagine BfA without the faction conflict Imagine that the primary storyline was driven by Kul'Tiras and Zandalar, and grew naturally into our confrontation with Azshara/N'Thoth without any of the faction nonsense attached. Or, at least, have some faction nonsense but at the usual level, not as the central narrative. Because I really like the new continents. I think they are some of the best work Blizzard has done, Kul'Tiras especially. And they both have interesting stories that I am much more interested in than rehashing Horde/Alliance. I would much rather see all that effort go into telling the stories of these new places and cultures.Carmageddon30 17m
40m Night Elf Priests This came up the other day in guild chat and I was wondering if there was any real answer. Are night elf priests part of the priesthood of elune? I mean we know that they are called the sisters of elune which feels pretty gender exclusive. Are they simply devote night elves that call upon the power of elune? Are priests(the class) the same as the sisterhood of elune, or are all priests just regular citizens who have a strong faith in elune. Are male NE priests considered cannon?Lazarou29 40m
52m Two Stupid Story Theories Sylvanas is being manipulated by Yogg-Saron. She's been acting upon a lie, an afterlife that was never meant to be. She crucified herself on Old God blood, and our good ol' "Hope's End" Yogg took the opportunity to give her a little kick in the keester; and now "Hope is a disease, I must cut it out". Sylvie's Val'kyr are playing her for a fool. Northrend is riddled with Kvaldir, man I wonder who Arthas could have snagged his "Kyr" from? Obviously not the lovely, vindictive original Val'kyr Titan Watcher who has links to Yogg through Loken and looks like she's dabbled one too many times into the "Curse of Flesh"? That's absurd, its not like Yogg loves corrupting titan constructs or anything... The Boy King serves at the ... Master Mathias Shaw's Table. Yup, you heard me ... the guy who inexplicably managed to survive being abducted and replaced by a Nathrezim is the Master who's table Anduin now serves at; three lies will he offer you. "Bound by a Throne, no ... boundless" ... for he is no longer bound to serve the Throne of Stormwind; the Throne of Stormwind serves him (Anduin is very dependent on him). "When your thrones run red with betrayal and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth ... then you will know. And it will be too late". After all, if he "had to choose between honor and getting the job done, he'd choose the latter every time ... For the Alliance, of course." Man, on that note, I wonder where the Mal'Ganis went off to? Dude just showed up once in Legion and wandered the hell off ... oh well, he left a pretty cool Rogue legendary. Nice quote too: "I have been preparing for you, young prince (King?), as you can see your people are now mine..." Good thing Anduin doesn't have any annoying Arthas parallels or I might be worried lol! Especially since Mal'Ganis wouldn't be bound by a "Burning Throne" now either. ...meh, the stupid crap I think of. :PDroité18 52m
1h Night Elves in BFA I wanted to create a thread where people could talk about how Night Elves have been represented so far in BFA. In the lead up to the expansion, there was a lot of worry that Night Elves would have their capitol destroyed and then ignored. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. I've seen a healthy supply of Night Elves involved in the war; between Shandris in the War Campaign and a few Sentinal units in WQs, the Night Elves seem to have a part in this war. But that's just my opinion; I'd love to hear how everyone is feeling about this now that the expansion is out and everyone has had time to explore the content.Beartusk143 1h
1h Flawless Alliance So if you look real close at the alliance and you will see a bit of a lack of internal tension (Though they actually are having the night elves disagree with anduin, which is a first). A major reason for that, and why they feel like they make poor villians for the horde, is the fact blizzard hasn't truly given their nations racial flaws. Compared to the horde which has basicly every non-bull race exhibiting some type of flaw (Orcs are hot headed, violent, and impulsive; Goblins are Reckless Social Darwinist driven by Greed, Forsaken are Petty, Vindictive, and Apathetic, Blood Elves are Arrogant, as are Trolls, and the Nightborn are Careless and Narcissistic.) this means it is fairly easy to make any of these races a villain for the alliance, or give them internal tension. The alliance is both to homogenized and flawless to be like that. Unless you view their incompetence as blizzard's attempt to give them a flaw and not blizz being bad writers. It's not a cultural flaw, it's just them making the alliance look weak so they can make the villain of the month look threatening. Alliance races don't really have flaws. Night Elves, Humans, Worgen and Gnomes all have this to some extent, but the Dwarves and Draenei are... Special Cases. The Dwarves used to have cultural flaws that just have been... forgotten i guess. They used to be Arrogant Imperialist, and later Paranoid of their own rival factions usurping one another. The Imperialism aspect has been dropped entirely, and i guess the Paranoia was abandoned in mist's High Kings Quest. Draenei meanwhile had the flaw of them listening to prophecies from angels to much... i guess. Thats why the alliance story lacked internal tension until 8.1, and why they just feel so villainous to the horde, they lack legitimate negative traits on a large scale. It's also why the alliance can have so many more Anti-Horde Players, when blizz wants a faction war they Exaggerate the hordes negatives, Forsaken go from Apathetic to Sociopathic, Orcs go from Impulsive, to mass murderers, and Goblins go from Reckless to actively trying to cause as much damage as possible.Reallyhappy34 1h
1h I want the faction war to last all BFA That's really all I want. I want this faction hatred to be the selling point of what I saw at blizzcon last year. For it to be a giant slow burn, sprinkled with old god stuff all around. I want alliance to do something horrific where there is no repair from both sides to have talks of neutrality or peace. This is WARCRAFT ffs. I hope at the end of all this the horde finally wins the war but with a price. It's a victory of pride and proof that they can go toe to toe with merica faction and then we both lose to N'zoth and friends for fighting each other. The end.Kalgromash89 1h
1h Black Dragons? Whut? So somehow even I missed this until it was brought up by Taliesin & Evitel, but I'll go ahead and blame it on being so incredibly disappointed by island expeditions that I just didn't care to look when they made these announcements....So Wrathion and Ebonhorn are gonna come by and just yell at us during our wacky island antics, or is this another case like Astarii or Derek Proudmoore's locations and/or conditions where someone isn't paying attention? Or will they pretend that they were paying attention and name drop that one dragon in Outland (while neglecting to clarify on the whole dark portal situation) that you probably forgot about in an interview long after this goes through? Place your bets.Jerolan61 1h
1h Blizzard and "Trust Fall" Writing I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing a trend here regarding whenever we get new developments for lore. A good majority of the attentive playerbase is growing increasingly worried with each addition. We are told to "Wait and See", and more often than not it's concluded with disappointment. For instance: Teldrassil. Blizzard peddles this air of mystery to the circumstances to the event, so after seeing it, the majority of us turn and face away, spread our arms, and drop. Cue the reveal of the Sylvanas cinematic, and people's heads crash into literary pavement. "Wait and See", we were told, only for an utterly disappointing conclusion that does nothing to surprise expectations and capture interest. Let's look now with developments for Darkshore. "Wait and See.", we were told. "This will be the revenge patch!", we were told. "The Night Elves will finally be taking a stand!" So people turned, fell back, and thumped into the literary concrete brick of Delaryn, Sira, and what could best be labelled as pro-Forsaken fan-fiction. Sure, people will try to pass it off as good writing, or that there's more to come, but the devil is in the details: and things are already looking more than atrocious. Now a look into Zuldazar. Another instance of "Wait and See" resulting in the sacking of a city and the murdering of a character, Rastakhan, that I don't think any majority on any playerbase truly wanted dead. I don't think this is what anyone was hoping for in how the conclusion of the Siege of Zuldazar would play out. There's still this ongoing air from Blizzard that it will all be unraveled, and that things won't be Mists of Pandaria 2.0, that the expansion will all come together into a satisfying conclusion, but doesn't there come a point where it's time to stop trusting? Part of the writing problem already is in that any lore reveals are spaced out months at a time because of the nature of content patches, and this distrust only festers even more in that time. It's a long fall, and I don't think I'm going to keep putting up with it.Theadrel93 1h
1h From: Darnassian Military Command "Good. You opened this message. This isn't actually Darnassian military command. They're busy tending to what's left of their World Tree. So you survived our fight in Darkshore. You're not as weak as I thought. But never forget that your best wasn't good enough to stop me. Now an entire race is dying because you lacked the strength to win. The legend of Tyrande Whisperwind needs to be re-written. I hope I'm there for the last chapter. It ends with your death." - NBTheadrel21 1h
2h Can Blizz Salvage Horde Narrative? Part of the Horde's upset about being forced to follow Sylv to Genocide and do evil crap. Part of it is either convinced Sylv's reasonable (not evil) or completely onboard with being evil. And part, with overlap from both, is upset at being stupid and railroaded by the plot. (Whether that's Saurfang being dumb and going along with sylv in the first place, or him staying behind pointlessly and that being played up as abandoning the Horde, or Sylv being stupid-evil, etc...) What could Blizz do to fix this? Can they salvage Saurfang? Personally there's not anything they can do imo to make me think Sylv isn't pure evil after Burning of Teldrassil.Skytotem82 2h
4h Has killing "hope" ever actually worked? I just don't understand the logic behind the war's reasoning. IE the writers praising Sylvanas for her amazing strategy. Has no one ever heard of Martyrs? Burning bridges? You know... When you push the enemy so much that they have nothing to lose? Logically. Destroying Teldrassil or killing Malfurion would have just pushed the Alliance/Night Elves for revenge. If the Horde occupied Teldrassil and took every Night Elf hostage then the Alliance army would go ahead and take Horde cities hostage with the Horde army occupied or blockaded at Teldrassil. It just doesn't make sense. At worst they will come at you with nothing held back. At best its a never ending stalemate.Lithya127 4h
7h The Horde Player: A Traitor For No Reason. Whether Saurfang is a traitor or not in 8.1 is questionable, but the Horde Player DEFINITELY is. The Player learns Saurfang ended his Stormwind vacation as part of an Alliance plan and they even bankrolled his escape. When the representative of the Warchief tells Saurfang to come with her to Orgrimmar to explain himself, he attacks her and her deputies. https://i.imgur.com/IiL1CbP.jpg The Player then helps Saurfang murder them all, even knowing that he's a puppet of the Alliance. Then The Player goes and lies to Sylvanas about what happened, apparently keeping her in the dark about THE IMPORTANT INFORMATION that the Alliance planned and paid for Saurfang's "escape". If I could, I'd execute myself as a traitor.Hahahahahaha260 7h
7h Fighting Old Friends Feels Bad I am the Highlord of the Silver Hand. Lady Liadrin and I have our disagreements, but we're allies in most things. Together we pushed back Kil'jaeden and restored the Sunwell for her people. We then fought together at Light's Hope Chapel, and defended Netherlight Temple. She was one of my most trusted colleagues and allies against the Legion. But now I'm expected to fight and kill her in a Warfront? Not only her, but a number of her paladins as well? I just spent the entirety of the last expansion uniting the Paladin order. I'm expected to be their leader. tl;dr - Why am I a paladin forced to fight other paladins when I just united all paladins?Vóde47 7h
7h Old God cryptic messages: relevant or not? Since Cata in particular with the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron we’ve had a lot of Old God based cryptic messages that appear to lead to some big secret. Are those for real and if they are, is BfA finally the time they are revealed? Some of the more specific ones that likely would be shown in game if they are real: Drown yourself in the circle of stars Do we ever get to see Ny’alotha? Do we ever see how the King of Diamonds is a pawn? Do we get to learn, without a doubt, who the Boy-King is and what the 3 lies are? Do all the references to N’zoth come true? Do we finally get to see and face him?Ningjinq28 7h
9h Horde Agression: Revealed! Have ya'll noticed something? Grom attacks the Night Elves Etrigg and Rexxar talk about Alliance tyranny and atrocities that don't exist Garrosh and Sylvie become Warchief suddenly pick fights with the Alliance for no reason WHAT DO THESE ALL HAVE IN COMMON? They all occurred AFTER the people involved spent extensive time in Durotar. Now, we know that the Horde tells us that Durotar is scarce in resources. One thing that includes is fresh water. But there ARE cacti in Durotar THE HORDE HAS BEEN GETTING HIGH OFF CACTUS JUICE FOR OVER A DECADE. This explains so, so much. The violent tendencies. The delusions. The short and long term memory loss. We need to resettle the Horde immediately. Air drop fresh water in the interim.Kelrexia23 9h
9h Top Three Strongest Characters of Each Class? Who are the top three strongest living characters of each class, in order? Not counting the PCs, of course. For characters that are a hybrid of classes, just consider them the class they resemble the most. For example: Alleria, Sylvanas, and Tyrande can all just be considered hunters, or Anduin can just be considered a Paladin.Jawah26 9h
10h more pauldrons more honor https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=166302/well-proportioned-pauldrons i want the context of this quest item, are horde players handing out massive shoulder pauldrons to potential recruits for the saurfang rebellion, are you having a shoulder-off with some orc with massive pauldrons. i need to know!Withpuppys14 10h
10h War of the Thorns and Peace for the Horde There are posters here that believe that Sylvanas' justification for the War of the Thorns in A Good War are sound, that longstanding conflict makes peace by diplomacy impossible, and that had Malfurion been killed and Teldrassil had not been burned that she would have won permanent peace for the Horde, and so the War of the Thorns was something they could side with. I find the entire premise irreparably flawed and the Horde itself is mutually exclusive with Sylvanas' justification for attacking the Night Elves. The people of Lordaeron¹ and the Quel'thalas² have history of war with the Orcs³ that dates as far back or farther than the rest of the Horde has a history of war with Stormwind. Alleria screaming about it on the Vindicaar even after she's lived an additional thousand years longer than anyone else from Quel'thalas and Saurfang himself having lead part of Orgrim Doomhammer's army as it marched for Quel'thalas and Lordaeron all factor into this as embers lingering the same as any other past grievances Sylvanas pointed out. And in fact, Sylvanas herself points this out: “I believe every orc³ your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human¹ scraps. I believe every human¹ remembers the tales of the terrible Horde³ that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they¹ blame every orc³ for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I² and my first Forsaken¹ were once loyal Alliance citizens." Sylvanas here, as a person from Quel'thalas and the leader of people from Lordaeron, is saying right to Saurfang's face that her people will never forgive him and the Orcs no matter what they do to redeem themselves. But narratively this goes right over the story's head, as Sylvanas spins its attention towards Stormwind in a verbal sleight of hand. But ultimately Sylvanas' leadership in the Horde leaves her claims either: Being wrong, as the Horde itself proves that peaceful coexistence can be established and is not impossible despite longstanding history of conflict. Or Being right, but the War of the Thorns providing no permanent peace as the Horde will inevitably turn against itself and in the end be as much of a threat to her as the Alliance was. “Time breaks every bond.” Sylvanas leaned across the table. Her words flew like arrows. “What do you believe? Will peace last five years or fifty?”Amadis77 10h
10h Troll golem origins? At this point in the game, what's the most likely explanation for how trolls started making golems - inspiration from titan constructs (those seen around Uldi and the three seal facilities), Mogu soulbinding techniques, a mixture of both, or independent development? (Side note - it's a bit odd that Talanji and the rest of the Zandalari don't seem to understand what the Great seal is or what the portal tiles in the building do, but they're also not really amazed by any of the titan stuff in Nazmir. Brann was all over that stuff in Northrend, but Talanji doesn't seem phased by anything in Uldir at all. Not quite sure what to make of their simultaneous familiarity and unfamiliarity with titan stuff. )Kurogasa3 10h
11h NE's from Darkshore joining the Forsaken? Can someone please explain to me why they, of all people, would join the ranks of the Forsaken and serve under Sylvanas? Especially those that were just fighting against her? I completely fail to see how this makes sense in the story. Mind Control? Brain Washing? So far, no. There has been no mention or hints about that in the 8.1 patch. So, if not that then what is it? I hope it's not just the Warcraft team forgetting lore and trashing on the alliance again :/Chilayllenn251 11h
11h Am I in the right place? I am interested in posting a theorycraft for a Warfront, I wouldn't know if that goes here, or general or another forum I am unaware of. Please advise.Tausnor5 11h
11h Anduin and the Alliance just dont care Neither Anduin, nor the Alliance, cares about the Night Elves, despite the lip service they pay them after Teldrassil was burned, apparently not a single alliance blade has been lent to help the Night Elves retake their homeland. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/Qf9lyGcemHz6crg4CsO2DrEnmLmfmstdk1CvtTKlEVY/https/i.gyazo.com/ef91820cb67689599c43ee5bfcdb4b31.png?width=321&height=473Rivendel151 11h
11h So about Katherine P Is she heading towards the chopping block now? I mean, her horde equivalent (rastakhan) is gonna out like a champion in the raid and she wouldn't be the first one to be sacrificed at the altar of faction parity (Taylor Alliance Side, Vol'jin Horde side). Here are my predictions regarding how it will go down: -Baine does nothing (as usual) and Sylvanas has free reins to dupe derek into killing his mom/she uses him to bait the Proudmoores into doing something stupid that gets Katherine killed and loses them half of their fleet (Its probably the latter, since it already happened with his corpse and I can see no other way of a single dead dude turning the tides of war to favor the horde) -the whole using derek to turn the tides of war to favor the horde was actually a red herring or it backfires, doing nothing. And when Azshara turns up she !@#$s up the kul'tiran fleet, killing mama Proudmoore Any thoughts? How do you think its gonna happen?Gharion23 11h
11h Jaina Proudmoore's Poem Tread lightly, she is near Under arcane snow, Speak gently, she can hear Where daisies won’t grow Her one bright golden hair Tarnished with rust She that was young and fair Fallen to dust Rest lily white as snow, She hardly knew She was a woman, so Vengeful she grew. Regret heavy as stone Lie on her breast; That she’s not atoned She is at rest Peace, peace; that she cannot hear Through song or sonnet; Unmarked graves buried here And heaped earth upon it.Perfectia20 11h
13h The Vindicaar is dead. My theory is that Turaylon and Velen noticed that red star acting oddly and sent the crew to go and explore it whild Turaylon stayed back due to the assault on Tedrassil. So next we see the Vindicaar will either be crashing to the ground with most crew dead or come back after being "Event Horizon'ed" by the void forces. Any lightforge we see now join pre BFA so that why your starting zone is the vindicaar.Phelios35 13h
15h We were right Lordaeron is ours! The holy kingdom of the Alliance, is just matter of time we just repopulate it after the blight is gone. With Lordaeron at our side we only need playable High Elves! they're so cute! I wish I could play my legolas, they're so pure, unlike void and blood elves. If Blizzard give us High elves the alliance will have everything we always wanted, light infused tirisfal glades and high elves.Dalric31 15h
15h We cant Remember No really. In any realistic situation, a 3000 year old elf would be intellectually superior to a 40 year old human. Assuming aging doesnt weaken them, they would also be physically superior through reflexes learned over thousands of years. (See Legolas in lord of the rings). The only way Warcraft Elves aren't vastly superior to the younger races is if they cant remember smaller details they learned in their lives. We have proof Elves can remember major events, Night Elves remembering the war of the ancients, Lorash remembering the trek to Quel'Thalas 7000 years ago. But we also have evidence of medium to small sized details being forgotten, Maiev nearly getting lost on the broken isles/ Suramar in WC3 TFT, even though she had been there before. Tyrande and Malfurion forgetting where Illidans prison was until they randomly ran across it in WC3 (Malfurion didn't know what the chamber was until reading an inscription on it/taking a closer look, even though he is the one who put Illidan in there) So it seems Elves always hold on to memories they deem important, but stuff they want to forget, or that they deem unimportant, is seemingly lost after some centuries until they run across it again. Or in some cases, like in the case of Malfurion forgetting Illidan prison location, the memory can be important and still forgotten. To summarize, The Elves have forgotten more than humanity has ever learned.Rivendel29 15h
15h How Serious is Hemet Nesingwary as a hunter Its been stated in some quests by some npcs that he is the greatest hunter in the world. But is this just exaggeration? How do you think he compares to historical great hunters Like Huln Highmountain, or current ones like Rexxar or Sylvanas (living, she said she could hit a bird in the eye, flying.)Jerillin26 15h
15h Troll Lifespan (Again) So, I'm tinkering with the backstory of my future Zandalari Druid, and I'm thinking of making him a really old, world-weary veteran. Like, ancient. I was thinking 100 years old, at least, yet he's still kicking butt like some ancient terror from a bygone age. Buuuut....there's some conflicting information on troll lifespans. By now, most of us are aware of that one ticket from a GM mentioning how the average troll lifespan caps out at around 250 years. It makes sense when you think about it given A: Troll regeneration probably helps extend the lifespan. And B: Elves are the descendents of trolls and even when they're not borderline immortal, they're pretty long-lived - they had to have gotten that longevity from somewhere. The reason we don't see many trolls at that age in-game can be chalked up to the violent lifestyles of most tribes, meaning that only the toughest and most cunning of trolls live to such a ripe old age. However, King Rastakhan is only about 200 years old, and it's stated that it was the blessing of Rezan that allowed him to live so long. After the quest where Rezan is consumed and corrupted, Gonk mentions that with Rezan dead, Rastakhan is aging fast, as though time is finally catching up to the king. Unless Rastakhan's age was changed without my noticing, I may have a bit of a problem here. I was thinking that maybe my Zandalari Druid boy received a blessing of longevity from Gonk like how Rastakhan received that blessing from Rezan. But, again during that quest, Gonk mentions he can not deny death the way Rezan could, implying that he lacks the ability to grant such blessings (which is odd to me - Gonk is the patron loa of troll druids, right? Wouldn't life magic be one of Gonk's specialties?)Jakkø8 15h
17h Are there multiple Hearts of Azeroth? I have been thinking about this for quite a time and want to know and speculate if there's any official word on whether or not there is just one Heart of Azeroth. Now it is likely that there is only one, but I can't help but think that, from a logical standpoint, there has to be more than one. I'll present my reasoning and see what you guys have to say on the subject. (Note: I have no proof on anything. This is all speculation and observation (along with bias to try to be funny) with some of it filled in by memory, since I'm too lazy to go and research all of this stuff in-depth. Take this all with a grain of salt.) 1.) In the starting quest 'A Dying World', Magni "Heal the Wounds" Bronzebeard leads you down to the Chamber of Heart (which he has a nice convenient teleportation pad that brings you there and back to your faction capital), and you are given the Heart of Azeroth. During this entire time, Magni refers to you as 'Azeroth's champion' (sometimes the placeholder for your actual name, but he's still calling you 'Champion'), but never refers to you as the sole champion, not like where some questgivers refer to you as the one and only (i.e. Khadgar calling you 'Azeroth's last, best hope' back in Legion). In fact, he never mentions you to be the sole champion of Azeroth, even after this ordeal (none that I can remember, anyway. If he does, I just wasted an hour of my life writing a completely redundant forum topic. Oops!) With that in mind, the group dedicated to this, lead by good ol' Magni himself, is called the 'Champions of Azeroth'. It's already blatantly obvious by this group's title that there is not one but multiple people that Azeroth deems its 'champions', and if the title 'Champion' has anything to do with it, it might mean that there's multiple people with their own Heart of Azeroth, running about and absorbing Azerite. 2.) Why would Azeroth only rely on one person to heal it? Sure, the world of Warcraft is filled with crazy undead elves prone to both fratricide and genocide, righteous goat paladins who just want to burn everyone who might have a differing opinion (unrelated to me, of course), along with some people who like to spend their time in the v̸̨̡̧́ǫ̴̶͝i̸͘͟͟͞d̸̛̀ over a warm, sunny day, but not everyone is bad, and many people would likely be willing to put their differences and the war over magic rocks aside to help keep their planet from dying. Azeroth, if anyone hasn't noticed yet, is big. There are many wounds sprouting up all over the place lorewise; not just Kul'Tiras and Zandalar, and one person running around trying to heal these big wounds with a little pendant simply isn't going to get anything done. It would be more logical to have many people running all over Azeroth with their own magic pendants that can help heal the world, as I'm sure the poor hunter Gerald, with his 280 item level, is going to struggle a bit in healing a planet all on his own. A copper for your thoughts?Ivilcya5 17h
17h What's Magni's favorite chip brand? He looks like a LAY's Barbeque kinda guy but I dunno.Sylaña3 17h
17h What was the eye of Aman'thul used for? So we got the Eye of Aman'thul, brought it back to Dalaran where it sits in the floor... For what? Did it play a part in Light's Heart? The tomb of sargeras? It seems like the thing was massively powerful and important, and it may play a huge part in what I want to do for a Nightborne character I intend to make. So once we/Khadgar had it in Dalaran, what did we do with it?Sèdryn14 17h
18h Justice for the fallen (Vol’jin story) Has anyone figured out how to start this quest chain? I did the first part with Bwonsamdi But was wondering if anyone figured out how to start this one.Baljin41 18h
18h No redemption for the hellscream's. So wait a second. Garrosh was a hothead sure. But suddenly he was written as a "racist" and everyone hated him. Garrosh was framed at the beginning of cataclysm thus setting up a long chain of events of characters hating him. During the cataclysm the alliance decided to raid a horde village and slaughter the innocent. Garrosh responded by hitting back. A legitimate military target loyal to the alliance. He got crap from both horde characters and alliance characters as well as the player base. No one defended him besides orc players, and the same orc players were laughed off. Suddenly the story changed to "garrosh is a big mean orcnationalist racist" "Garrosh hurt anduin grr how could he!" "Garrosh hurt poor panda people how could he!" and both the player base and the characters in game said "Yeah, lets effing kill him!" Then they literally WROTE A NOVEL where all the characters talked about how much they hated garrosh, what a big meanie he was and how even the horde hates him and went over his list of warcrimes as tyrande accuses him and attempts to get him put to death. Thrall hates him so much that he challenges him to a duel just to murder him and basically prove to the alliance that the horde isnt a "big ol bunch of meanie heads" Then Sylvanas comes along and hits a civilian target. Taunts and acts all edgy around the dying elves and is proud of her work. sets off another global war in which nathanos kills people with ease and quips and the characters in the game literally dont care. besides maybe saurfang. Literally no in the story besides the alliance and saurfang care what's happening. Bane proudly stands ready to receive his orders at the seal. The horde is universally united and even the zandalari are willing to hop on board. Nothing that is happening right now is in line with ANY of what happened in the past at all what so ever. it's like whatever arc the horde went through it didnt and it only serves as a very weird "civic nationalism is good" "you can commit war crimes as long as you aren't a racist about it". The only thing it's doing right now is making it look like saurfang is a sentient being that's starting to see he's trapped in a video game when no one else on the horde fails to see the irony in what's happening. And then funny thing is we could of made a faction war story work no problem with vol'jin. I'm not even rooting for my own faction right now and it doesnt have to do with me even wanting the horde to be the "good guys". I dont care if we are good or bad. I'm just startled it doesnt make sense anymore. There is literally no way out of this unless blizzard is planning to let the alliance win, dismantle the horde completely and it's surviving races will be absorbed or watched by the alliance. (basically a post ww2 germany.). on a side note it would have interesting game play implications to just get rid of the factions and turn it into a sort of elder scrolls style story where the factions aren't based off of race and any race can technically be apart of any organization.Xanthine29 18h
19h Misogyny and the treatment of Night Elves Putting the Amazons in Their Place Night Elves are unique among the playable races, that their culture is heavily based around Amazons, or warrior women. Their culture is matriarchal: their god, their government, their leadership, their priesthood, and their military are lead and occupied by women. With 8.1, its obvious that they are the target contempt, and this hatred is manifested repeatedly through violence, incompetence, and humiliation of the Night Elves. "Tyrande has no idea how to lead our people!" Ever since Vanilla, players of the Warcraft games have bemoaned the intentional neutering of the ferocity of the Night Elves. Tyrande became a passive leader, pining for the return of her husband, rather than protecting her people. He finally returned in Cata, and the first and only time she became a proactive character was met with the infamous, "Hush, Tyrande." She stayed the silent by loyal wife of the more proactive Malfurion, until MoP. Here, the 10,000 year old war veteran was again schooled in basic military tactics by a 40 year old human man. Tyrande stayed absent until her aptly named boat, "Tyrande's Silence" made an appearance in WoD. Her last appearance in the game was in Legion, where again, she became the lovesick wife pining for her husband. Because players were used to Tyrande being written as a passive housewife, the backbone she showed by being cautious for the safety of herself and her people, was interpreted as being !@#$%y to Thalyssra and Illidan. Teldrassil, burning down Themyscira As Delaryn Summermoon figured out, Teldrassil was the target of hatred, and was burnt down as a permanent reminder of the failure of the Amazon/Night Elf army and culture. Teldrassil was literally the hidden Amazonian paradise for the Night Elves, and home to everything that made up their culture, including the only city protected by a female guard. Blessed by only the female Aspects, Alexstrasza and Ysera, the latter who was most revered by the Night Elves, whom were forced to kill her after a quick and easy corruption storyline. By destroying Teldrassil, they found a way to remove and desecrate all of these monuments of female power. The Night Elves are forced to abandon their matriarchal society, and have no choice but to be powerless refugees in the very patriarchal Stormwind, subservient to human men, and human culture. A Eulogy to Incompetence The War of Thorns novellas were a slow, painful, detailed explanation of the incompetence of the Night Elven armies, highlighted by graphic violence. From the start, we are introduced Delaryn's commander who's throat was slit almost until she was beheaded by an ambush of a few Horde rogues. All but one escape into the forest, a forest that was apparently more familiar to them, than the Night Elves who live there. Being ambushed and assassinated by a small group of rogues was a frequent plot. A single blood elf rogue with the help of another captured Astranaar. The guards were assassinated with a painful poison, and the surviving civilians were rounded up and executed in the town square. The bodies of Sentinels and their saber mounts were left in the roads of Ashenvale as a warning. Delaryn's lover was beheaded after his plan was found out and foiled by a blood elf throwing shurikens, and yes, escaping them once again. In the end, we see countless slain and dying bodies of Night Elves, some reaching up as they watch Teldrassil burn before their eyes. Humiliation, Failure and How 8.1 Goes Too Far Night Elves are constantly reminded of the failure of their culture, efforts, sacrifices, and leaders, often by mockery. Within the Alliance war campaign, headed by Shandris Feathermoon, a dozen Sentinels were effortlessly killed by the Sanlayn, whom were mocking their deaths, their genocide, and the burning of Teldrassil. In fact, several NPCs gleefully reference burning the tree as a taunt. During the Night Warrior scenario, Nathanos Blightcaller is allowed to disrespect Tyrande to her face, calling her a "witch" after she kills a Valkyr who was mind controlling her. This harkens back to another infamous quote by Garrosh, where he called Sylvanas a ^-*!@ to her face (and later another orc calls Jaina this during the Theramore scenario). Failure and humiliation is the central theme of 8.1 for the Night Elves. Delaryn, who was made to kneel before the Warchief and admit that she won before she died seeing the efforts of her armies to protect their people go up in flames. Perhaps as punishment for defending her people after a brief stint as the neutral leader of the Wardens in Legion, Sira Moonwarden was slain and raised along with Delaryn. Tyrande in spite of going through a dangerous ritual to empower herself with the fury of a goddess, she is no match for an undead human man, and needed to be rescued by her husband. The final insult, is that the Captain of the Guard, a Warden, and the newly formed Army of the Black Moon, remnants of a once proud Amazonian race, belong to Sylvanas and the Horde. Much like Teldrassil, the proverbial "black eyes" are a permanent reminder of the contempt that the Night Elves represent. EDIT: Thank you for the thoughtful replies, I will try to respond individually. Everyone else, please do not troll.Korra483 19h
19h A Simple Fix for 8.1 Saurfang Quests This Line: "Champion, you and that troll need to stay out of this. My orders come from the warchief herself!" Play up this line from Dark Ranger Lyana. She is under orders to make sure you and Zekhan "stay out of this", so have her act on that to ensure you do. Have her stun us, or sap us, or whatever. Then all this scenario comes down to is Lyana acting on her orders from Sylvanas, and Saurfang being the Cleave-King he is. A little anti-climactic? Sure. Taking agency from the player? Certainly, but it did that before ... so its a trade off. Zekhan can still shout his sweet nothings to Saurfang, Saurfang can still tell him to keep hope alive ... but neither of you are made traitors to Sylvanas for the encounter. Then Saurfang knocks you out. Zekhan is just "a poor misinformed starstruck youth being taken advantage of by his childhood hero" and you're just "a champion, victim of only a dutiful ranger following the Warchief's orders to the letter". You couldn't help Saurfang even if you wanted to, you couldn't stop him if you wanted to. This allows you to participate in the Darkshore narrative as a Horde without feeling like you have a split personality, as you're still a loyal member of the Horde (you can even choose to "spare" Sira if you'd like); and by the sounds of it the Vol'jin questline takes place chronologically AFTER the Zuldazar raid (so less problems there). A little clunky, but overall ... No fuss, no muss, less problems (for now).Droité33 19h
19h Vol'jin and two entities A lot of people are misunderstanding the events here. There are two entities at work not one. 1. Entity 1 has a hand in Vol'jin's death and the promotion of Sylvanas to Warchief. 2. Entity 2 makes Vol'jin into a Loa. This is what Eyir says when Vol'jin asks her if the force that turned him into more than a spirit is the same force who whispered to him: ... So by this we know whoever turns Vol'jin into a Loa is a NOBLE force. This force is righteous or good according to Eyir. She also states this entity doesn't care about the scheme for mortal thrones, in order words the title of the Warchief. She basically confirms that there are two entities. We don't know who these entities are but the entity that whispers to Vol'jin about Sylvanas is N'Zoth. Voljin says: ... We can speculate what he means by "takin' me somewhere," but something similar happened to Azshara when she was on the verge of death. It was as if she was taken by N'Zoth to the Black Empire itself. Almost as if she had a vision. Vol'jin may have been taken in the same fashion while on the verge of death, although N'Zoth didn't make himself known to Vol'jin. To N'Zoth, fighting off the Legion (Sargeras) was the priority. Sylvanas succeeded in that role. He used Deathwing the same way and planned to get rid of him after the Black Empire was revived. The only difference is N'Zoth can't directly corrupt Sylvanas. He can however influence the events around her to cause her downfall. The Horde vs. Alliance war is a great way to do that. Remember Il'gynoth from the Emerald Nightmare? "The king of diamonds has been made a pawn." There's a theory that it's Gallywix. Trade Prince Gallywix is pretty pro-war because he benefits from it, and he is actually the one who gives the first piece of Azerite to Sylvanas. Also, there's this mark in Orgrimmar and Argus having to do with the Goblins and the Void Ethereals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6l3ah40OfM Il'gynoth's whispers will play a big role this expansion: ... The gift of flesh is actually a curse. The Forsaken and the Scourge are immune to this curse. When Lady Deathwhisper in ICC revives her minions as undead, she yells, “I release you from the curse of flesh!” With the Burning Legion gone, Sylvanas' Forsaken and Bolvar's Scourge are probably the only real threat left to N'Zoth, especially Sylvanas since her goal is to turn everyone into a Forsaken. A quick history about the Old Gods and the undead. The Burning Legion created the Helm of Domination and attached Nerzhul's spirit to it. The Burning Legion planned to use this in their battle against the Void, and more importantly the Old Gods who corrupted even the titan-forged. What better way to fight the Old Gods than with a mindless army that are immune to their corruption? Ner'zhul however had his own goals and reached out to Arthas to merge into the Lich King, an even stronger enemy for both the Burning Legion and more importantly, the Old Gods. Yogg-Saron tried to stop Arthas from reaching the Frozen Throne, but failed. I believe N'Zoth also played a part in trying to stop Arthas because the Naga accompanied Illidan to the Icecrown Citadel where he fought Arthas and lost. The Naga then rescued Illidan and took him to the Outlands. Remember, Azshara knew Illidan from the very beginning when they lived in Suramar. She was probably also aware that he was power hungry and wanted revenge against the Burning Legion. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? This would explain the Alleria whispers about Sylvanas serving the "true enemy" which is the Scourge and by proxy Sargeras and his Burning Legion. I personally would like to see a new unknown force that made Vol'jin choose Sylvanas but knowing Blizzard that's not gonna happen.Raydann18 19h
20h Iron Stars & New Blackrock Orc So, I apologize if this was discussed already! There was some datamined text, which can be found below. It is between Uraka, a new Blackrock Orc, and some Goblin at an unknown location. Uraka shows off an iron star, and the goblin tells her to create many more. "Whoo! Your iron star made my post shake all the way from the front gates, Uraka! Uraka smiles. I knew you'd appreciate my genius eventually. We gotta make more of them. Hundreds of them... Millions of them... Bomb-billions of them! Heh. You bring the Azerite, and I'll bring the boom, lil' one. Deal! That's a binding contract!" Here is her model... https://ptr.wowhead.com/npc=145674/uraka-wildthunder#modelviewer:10+0 This may not be very exciting for some, but I really was hoping for a prominent, named blackrock orc! I am excited to see her in-game. Any ideas in what context or area this will be located in?Greyfeathar42 20h
20h Story Forum Community Lounge 145 Link to the Archive: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8087929632 Link to the previous lounge: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20766906978 Story Forum Discord: https://discord.gg/nc9stJP 1) The thread must be called "Story Forum Community Lounge" followed by its number. 2) No serious lore discussion. 3) No hating, flaming, or serious debates unless all sides wish to engage in the talk. 4) You must post these rules in the Original Post, so all can see the rules in future lounge.Anelaan447 20h
20h Wow's Story Criticism (8.1 spoilers) In this post I'd like to basically express why I feel that WoW's in-game story sucks. While it's true that sometimes these problems are solved in a book, the fact of the matter is--most people don't read those books and they're like C-level fantasy at best designed to fill in the holes of the narrative but fail to actually make any of it all that compelling so I'd like to for the sake of this post focus purely on in-game story with some focus on the war campaign and the general thrust of the situation and why the Alliance is barely able to do anything naughty and how that hampers everything in the story and considerably hurts both the Alliance and the Horde stories and character development. I'd like to start with a quote that I think really exemplifies how Blizzard looks at the story of World of Warcraft. Tong the Fixer says: Talk! Talk! Talk! Tong the Fixer says: Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! Tong the Fixer says: You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. Tong the Fixer says: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this? Tong the Fixer says: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG. Tong the Fixer says: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. Tong the Fixer says: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this? At this point Wrathion sputters because he forgotten how the war had actually !@#$ed over both the horde and the alliance of some of their best people. It's probably partly why the cool and collected manipulator had suddenly decided to have a tantrum. And that's really the last we see of Wrathion so another cool character screwed over I guess. But the point is is that this is Blizzard's operating philosophy which is convenient because they have a war they can't really end. Tyrande herself says it at some point and while she's not wrong, it's not a GOOD thing that it can't end, it's just...a thing. It's also not actually true that warfare makes both sides strong. In reality it actually is very costly for people who don't directly benefit from war. Before talking about Varian's sparing of the horde, let's first talk about Varian. Varian is a guy who saw his dad murdered by orcs and saw various aspects of the horde constantly ruin his people and their allies. He was a little bit racist against orcs. Was that laudable? No. But it added nuance. It gave the horde stakes beyond 'take resources' which has been the only real horde goal since cataclysm. They have to fight the alliance because the alliance can't be expected to treat them fairly or honorably. Their king thinks of the orcs as savages! And this was after Varian's own soldiers got poison bombed by the horde. If you think about it, he was being pretty damn restrained here. When he has a chance to end the horde in pandaria (or at least cause severe damage to it) he chooses not to. Nevermind that the horde gets a pretty neat civil war thing going on since Garrosh has some complexity into why he's doing what he's doing and is falling, sure, but for pretty understandable reasons when you consider how the horde treated him. Meanwhile, the Alliance acts as Azeroth's janitor to clean him up. They don't even kill him for nuking a city and let Pandaria hold a trial for him. What happened in the trial? I dunno. It was in a book because blizzard thought seeing even a truncated version of the trial would be a waste of resources or people wouldn't be interested in an mmorpg's story. I mean sure, you could've had a quest where the infinite dragonflight come in and you try to fight them off to keep them from rescuing Garrosh, but they don't do this. They put it in a book. Great. Does Varian get pissed off about this? Demand the horde chase after Garrosh? Or do they just all kind of agree to do that seperately maybe. I dunno. The alliance doesn't seem super involved in stopping Garrosh for good. Thrall kills him I guess? Because as we know the bad things he did hurt Thrall and not Jaina or any alliance member or even Voljin or anything. Thrall gets to deal with the aftermath of his cheating in their duel, sure, but alliance members promptly forget about him. What about his fate isn't for you to decide, Alliance? Thrall just decided it. (oh man i totally forgot that we released Guldan from jail instead of just stabbing him in the face. who would make such a dumb mistake Khadgar? I mean hey it stopped the invasion and eliminated all of the stakes on Draenor but at least an army was stopped from going to Azeroth oh wait it led to the Legion being able to go to Azeroth which is far worse than a bunch of orcs. Woops. Well I'm sure it'll be okay). *looks at the giant sword stabbing the planet...person* Y..yeah it turned out to be okay. Anyway then Varian dies and the Alliance gets the vastly inferior Anduin in charge. Don't just ask me, ask all the alliance and horde members. Now sure, that's not inherently bad. Now is the time for him to learn what it is to be a proper leader and earn the right to be called king and all that jazz. He has his great big failure to the night elves. His decision in fact leads to them suffering near genocide (bear in mind during cataclysm they also lost a lot of night elves, Blizzard's favorite punching bag). So he steps up and...loses the fight against undercity because he forgets that the scourge uses the Blight. Couldn't alliance have prepared gas masks or something made from their gnomish allies? No? Needed more dev time? Ok. Like bear in mind the fight against undercity wasn't one Anduin won. Due to various strategy elements we can pretend played out, even the horde figured he would win the fight. the horde is mostly evaccuating. But the alliance fails to even get a clean victory here because Sylvanas, after nearly committing a genocide and declared life to be her enemy salts the earth essentially as she leaves. So okay, we'll call that a draw. So the alliance is like 'we need allies'. Tyrande refuses the people of Suramar because they did a bad thing like a million years ago. these are people she helped fight with to defeat queen elisande and she was like 'yeah actually nevermind, don't join us' and so they join the horde because they had nothing better to do. I'm sure this won't lead to any problems down the line. You can say it's a matter of balancing the allied races but you can change how those would shake out to begin with. By the way, those big bad suramar elves that couldn't be let into the alliance because they dabbled too much in spooky magic? Yeah lets let the void elves in and give them a teleport that's barely faster than unbuffed walk speed. (later we would have a quest chain to let in the dark iron dwarves too but their quest is mostly about learning how to rebuild a forge whereas the mag'har are rescued from....Yrel? wait, when did Yrel become a fanatic? It's been 35 years?? The Alliance has no idea about any of this despite her being our main contact??? She is enslaving orcs now that don't submit to the light???? I thought Blizzard said that wasn't how the draenei were operating, that they weren't gonna seek vengeance or anything because they were better people than that. I thought Yrel was a good guy! I thought Yrel was actually a friggin' slave at one point and would probably have some recognition that slavery is BAD). But instead she's turning them into even more slaves? Is she being mind controlled or something? Is it all a smear campaign??? I don't know but I do know it's stupid and yet still vastly more interesting than the dark iron campaign. Oh right there was a lightforged draenei campaign not that the lightforged are...a race or anything. it's just draenei that are....lightier than normal? Actually it's kind of funny that the alliance has the two races connected to both the light and the void the most even though they are huge enemies to one another. I mean it would've probably made more sense to recruit the ethereals to the alliance at least they're a race and not a template. I think I got off track. Oh right. So the alliance fails to get any significant victory in 8.0. In fact, we even go into a g'huun raid that has absolutely nothing to do with the alliance story and i'm still not sure how we even knew to go to this place? I get that it's more a horde raid than alliance but something of a cookie might've been nice. We are able to help Jaina reconnect with her mom (meanwhile the horde intervene in a civil war, make deals with a death god, learn voljin is only mostly dead, and will soon get to meet all the various cool death people that are still around including helya who isn't dead because of course she ain't). Also Sylvanas hires more lich king forces, this time the vampires. The rest of the alliance campaign is trying to kill one vampire and also capture gallywix who avoids it with a stunt double. gripping story here. In 8.1 the alliance finally gets to strike back. granted, this isn't an 'alliance' raid or anything (maybe the 2 boss crucible is supposed to be that?) and this is where %^-* gets really ridiculous. We invade to cripple the Zandalar before they can contribute to the horde (lets forget that we helped them earlier). We go up to the king and say 'hey please surrender'. He says nope. We end up killing him. Anduin is like 'aw man we weren't supposed to kill him. We were supposed to push them further away from the horde.' wait what hold on what As an alliance member I don't remember ever there being a diplomatic mission sent off to the Zandalar. Let's even forget that we held their princess in our jail for a while and sent a fleet out to capture her. The Zandalar are definitely never going to be our friends whereas the horde is helping quell a civil war and also yeah helped rescue their princess, you think invading them and blowing up most of their fleet is going to push them AWAY from the horde? Glenn suggests that the Alliance push their advantage. Anduin is like 'no. that's what Sylvanas would do. you don't want to be like HER do you?' He is saying this to someone whose son Sylvansa killed and whose nation was destroyed by her. Surprisingly, Glenn does not rip out Anduin's throat but let's unpack this for a moment. Don't push your advantage? Because it'd make you /like Sylvanas/? I get you don't want the Alliance to win too hard (not that they are really winning here considering Jaina and Mekkatorque are both seriously wounded) but I can get other reasons why you wouldn't want to push an advantage. Maybe it'd lead you into a trap which would honestly make more sense than the horde simply 'catching up' to jaina who has the ability to teleport ships and mass quantities of people. But that's not the reason Anduin gives. He says it'll 'make them like Sylvanas'. no, being like Sylvanas would be detonating a blood plague in their capital city. Winning a battle or a war is not 'being like Sylvanas'. Why is he having this war if he doesn't want to win? It'd be better to just surrender if he is not going to push an advantage because that would make him like Sylvanas. I'm not the only one who notices this, Glenn and Tyrande are both like 'uhh what' at this dork. Maybe he's supposed to still be a dork? Maybe his story is him failing to wake the eff up when someone is literally trying to kill 'Life'? That's a pretty sad story from an alliance perspective but if that's the case, why don't the alliance get secret missions behind anduin's back to hurt the horde properly? Is Blizzard so afraid of the alliance being even a little bit mean that we can't even take this other route? See where it goes? Maybe explore the growing discontent between the faction leaders?? We kind of get to do that with Tyrande when she becomes the (lol) Night Warrior but the operation is kind of basically sanctioned by Anduin even if he's kinda against it. I guess? So we go to help Tyrande out she gets this ultimate power of vengeance that is so dangerous it kills most of the people who try to get it and with that power she...%r%r...fails to defeat Nathanos Blightcaller or save a single night elf that was in danger in that scenario. In fact, that whole thing is kind of comical. DELARYN: You can't win a battle against life :(. Sylvanas: *kills delaryn* Nathanos: *raises delaryn* DELARYN: nevermind go team anti-life SIRA: *literally murdered by Nathanos or the player character* Nathanos: *raises SIRA 2 minutes later* SIRA: Man !@#$ the night elves and Elune. okay so what does this suggest? It suggests that Sira and Delaryn aren't actually Sira and Delaryn. Perhaps they're corrupted? It's the only story Blizzard has in store for its ladies just see Yrel up top there. Are they mind controlled? Hard to say but it certainly feels like that all of that led to just more dead night elves. Oh we killed one valkyr. Okay. I mean she has more and sure a lot of them aren't powerful enough but it's not like they...can't grow in power. This ticking down clock of valkyr doesn't mean anything. So yeah, getting this super power for Tyrande doesn't even let us get vengeance. Maybe that comes in 8.2. Or maybe it never comes because we're gonna get sidetracked by old gods and/or Azshara. So what are the sollutions here? First, isn't honor the 'orc' thing? Isn't having the alliance leaders so honor focused detrimental to the orcs for which honor is a big thing? I get that their 'honors' are a little different but...not by much, honestly. Having the alliance so scared of being a little bit 'evil' is detrimental to both factions. It doesn't give the horde an intriguing enemy to battle and it makes the alliance so good that they're the only plausible faction to back. Secondly, let the alliance get some damn victories. It's getting tiresome to get our asses kicked and then rebound and win a siege. let the alliance do some dark %^-* to get their victories and pay the price of it. Don't just make it be a horde thing.Instead of showing how 'war makes both sides strong', show how it makes both sides weaker, more craven, more desperate. Third, keep the story in game. Let the books serve as additional content but if I am confused because I didn't read a book, that's bad for the game. I ain't buying the books I'm buying a game. Fourth, don't make the allied quest chains boring. Fifth, let Tyrande do something cool already. The coolest moment allianceside was Jaina summoning a ship and saving the alliance with it. It's so cool in fact you based a mount around that ship, essentially (also why aren't these flying ships the kul tiran mounts? Do we really need a freaking other horse). It's kind of bad that the cool alliance moment in this xpack is a pre xpack event. I didn't go into drustvar, stormsong, or tiragonde but they have their issues too, all of them pretty different. maybe i'll do another post for that but i'll summarize here. Drustvar: maybe don't justify witch hunts. Stormsong: a little bit of old god story then we go help farmers. Tiragonde: Pirates, i guess?Stabjanna34 20h
22h Guide: How to not become a traitor. #showtooltip Misdirection #show misdirection /target Saurfang /cast misdirection /cast feign deathQualía43 22h
1d What's YOUR ideal ending to BfA? Title. You're the supreme overlord of all Blizzard writing now! How would you see this expansion through? Ground rules: Everything that has already happened in BfA is still canon. Teldrassil, Lordaeron, war campaigns, etc. Look to the future, work with the building blocks Blizz has set up thus far. This doesn't need to include the 8.1 info, as that's technically not in-game yet, but feel free to include it as canon anyway. See what you think could satisfy both sides, not just your fave faction! Unless your ideal ending removes factions. Who even knows. Let's please just not turn this into another "my waifu could beat up your waifu" faction hate thread (at least for the first page). Try to make this a realistic, workable concept, not just "INSERT FACTION HERE gets pwned and INSERT LEADER HERE gets beheaded and their lackeys cry forever about it lul" Most importantly: Keep it fun! We've been screaming in here for months, let's try to see if we can find some common ground.My ideal ending is kind of a remix on Redshirtguy's "Sylvanas wants to kill the World Soul" concept, except she remains as Warchief while the Alliance seeks to preserve the World Soul and also defeat the Void Lords. Sylvanas, ruthlessly pragmatic, is willing to kill a future deity in order to, should the worst come, prevent the Old Gods from corrupting it instead. Anduin, ever the idealist, wishes to protect the World Soul, banking on the idea that the armies of Azeroth can drive the Void Lords away. This conflict then becomes a deeper one, which can actually encourage some constructive debate: is it moral to kill a World Soul in the womb if her death could prevent the deaths of countless Azerothians? Are we willing to risk it? This could set the Horde and Alliance apart in a tangible way, assuming killing the World Soul doesn't plunge Azeroth into ruin. Otherwise Sylvanas's plan would be omnicidal and stupid. \o/Vozul81 1d