Mar 25 Rogue Leveling FAQ (7.x) Updated: 12/17/16 for 7.x. This FAQ is for new rogues. It is full of simplifications and generalizations. The focus is on optimal leveling speed and viability. This is not how things will work for end game pve/pvp. Be sure to read though the notes, as I've tried to explain major exceptions and caveats. Bold/underline is direct question answer. But, as you will see, many choices can not be made in a vacuum. If any class is about experimentation and situational planning, the rogue class is and to fully understand the class, you will need to think this way as well. If you'd like, you can join the Ravenholdt discord server to chat with other rogues here: Or you can contact me on twitter or email. Twitter/Gmail: wavefunctionpAeriwen398 Mar 25
3d Roguedom: Common Rogue Q's & A's (Last updated March 4, 2017.) Raiding. Gear. Stats. Secrecy. Poison. Murder. Deceit. There's so much to know about being a rogue! What's a pirate-spy-ninja-sassin to do? Nothing. You're screwed. You'll never be any good. Oh! Sorry; force of forum habit -- I meant the opposite of that. Whether you're new to the class or a grizzled veteran, there's always more to learn about playing a rogue. In this thread, I’ll do my best to answer commonly asked questions on a range of rogue topics. At present I'm keeping this thread focused on end-game PvE questions only (i.e., primarily raid-relevant stuff). If you've got any suggestions, Q's you'd like to see A'd, corrections or general death threats, feel free to post in this thread, flip me the bird at @SvelteKumquat or email me at I look forward to completely ignoring your heartfelt messages.Rfeann230 3d
Feb 3 Jo's Compendium of Mutilating: Seeya in 7.0! DISCLAIMER: This guide is outdated currently! It will likely not be updated until a few weeks after Legion launches. Until then, I will be changing things over time, so don't be surprised if things don't make sense! The tell all guide to assist you in plunging two daggers into the heart of Archimonde! Learn how to maximize your defense! Be the envy of the other melee in the raid! Live through extreme damage! Pull more burst than ever before! Be the prize member of your raid team! (Warning: Do not attempt any of the practices in this guide unless you are an Assassination spec'd Rogue!) ~Changelog~ 10/16/14 - The Iron Tide crashes into Azeroth! Made my first pass at updating the guide for the new patch and decorated the hidden gumdrops with spikes of iron and bone. 10/18/14 - Herped my derp and missed some things with the 6.0.2 patch update, changed the stat section. Began the Great Changelog Purge to prevent having the changelog become half the guide. 10/22/14 - Found more missed parts of the guide, mostly wording to things that aren't around anymore like profession bonuses. Updated gem section and some talent descriptions. 11/10/14 - Updated rotation section to reflect the pandemic changes affecting Envenom. 11/14/14 - Started updating the guide for Warlords of Draenor. 11/17/14 NEW N' TASTY! Finished updating to level 100 Warlords. Combined enchant and gem section, eliminated some outdated wording, added new glyph recommendations, added new talent tier, reworked stat priorities, changed rotation guidelines and covered everything in a delicious Lemon Zest. Removed Herobrine. 11/19/14 - Made some changes to the 100 talent tier section. and expanded on the rotation section to accommodate for Shadow Reflection. 11/21/14 - Changed the enchant recommendations, elaborated more on multi-target section. Released the Molten Corgis. 12/02/14 - Expanded on the rotation section. 01/06/15 - It's a new year! Finally got off my lazy butt and updated example fights for talent descriptions. Also updated the enchantment section. 01/17/15 - Added a paragraph on Vanish and Premeditation into the rotation section, expanded on Vendetta section. Changed some syntax and grammar choices. Removed all parasprites and sent them back to the Everfree Forest. 02/02/15 - BRF OR BUST! Began updating the guide for Blackrock Foundry. Lamented that 'Blackrock n' Roll' doesn't fit as the new tag line. 02/19/15 - Stopped being lazy and updated enchant section to reflect Shattered Hand losing value. 02/25/15 - Updated Leeching Poison for the new changes in 6.1. Removed Herobrine. Or added. I forget at this point. 03/02/15 - Updated the foreword section with another communication option. 06/29/15 - Patch time! Started updating the guide for 6.2: Fury of Hellfire. 09/3/15 - I'm still alive! Finished updates for 6.2... Almost three months after the patch came out. Changed references to Premeditation to Preparation. 04/27/16 - Since there's very likely to be no update until Legion, I had some fun with the title. Compendium of Mutilating 1. Your Initiation - Foreword (J1): 2. Your Tools - Common Terms, Abilities and Abbreviations (J2): 3. Your Build - Talents and Glyphs (J3): 4. Your Gear - Stats, Enchanting and Gemming (J4): 5. Your Cunning - Common Tips, Tricks and Strategems (J5): 6. Your Victory - Afterword (J6): ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your Initiation - Foreword (J1) The first spec on your left, Assassination has classically been a bit of an oddball spec. Originally following the same path as the Arcane spec for Mages, in the early days of the old talent point system, most Rogues only ventured into the tree for Seal Fate, a talent that gave extra combo points on critical combo point generating moves like Backstab and Sinister Strike, or for Cold Blood, a now deprecated talent that used to ensure a critical strike on your next ability. As it went through expansions it slowly began to gain traction until Cataclysm, when Assassination was able to hold it's own against the other two specs. Now, Assassination is as competitive, if not more so, than Combat and Sub. The rotation is simple and requires less management than the other two specs and pulls exceptional numbers. Assassination has come a long way from it's origins. This compendium will help you identify common Rogue terms, maximize your gear, talents and glyphs, and perfect your strategy in raid encounters during patch 6.0.3: Warlords of Draenor. Most of the advice in this guide will focus on preparing you for Blackrock Foundry (Which releases on February 2nd.) but should apply just as well to previous raid tiers and other content. If you have any questions or suggestions, please, feel free to leave them in a reply to this thread! I'll get back to you as soon as possible. I also have a Twitter! Just send a tweet to @JoTheRogue to chat! ... Your Tools - Common Terms, Abilities and Abbreviations (J2) Common Terms AP - Attack Power Crit - Critical Strike Rating Mastery - Mastery Rating Multi - Multistrike Rating Vers - Versatility Haste - Haste Rating CD - Cooldown GCD - Global Cooldown Common Assassination Abilities and Abbreviations (Stuff that should be on your bars) Mutilate (Mut) Dispatch Marked for Death (MfD) Shuriken Toss (Toss) Rupture (Rup) Garrote Cheap Shot (CS) Kidney Shot (KS) Envenom Slice and Dice (SnD) Recuperate (Recup) Shadowstep (Step) Burst of Speed (BoS) Sprint Deadly Poison Leeching Poison Crippling Poison (Crip) Gouge Blind Kick Feint Evasion Combat Readiness Stealth Vanish Fan of Knives (FoK) Crimson Tempest (Tempest) Vendetta Smoke Bomb Cloak of Shadows (Cloak, CloS) Sap Venom Rush (Rush, VR, Lemon Zest) Shadow Reflection (SR) Death from Above (DfA) Non-Assassination Abilites and Abbreviations (Things that can't be on your bars, for reference) Hemorrhage (Hemo) Backstab (BS) Shadow Dance (ShD) Sinister Strike (SS) Blade Flurry (Flurry, BF) Killing Spree (Spree) Revealing Strike (RS) Adrenaline Rush (AR)Jokaste264 Feb 3
Nov 1 Shadow Dance and the Stealth Bar We’ve been reading all of the feedback throughout beta regarding Shadow Dance and the desire to have it use the “Stealth action bar.” To get right to the point, after an upcoming hotfix, Subtlety Rogues will find that Shadow Dance swaps their main action bar to the alternate bar that is used while in Stealth. For a bit of context on the late change to our thinking on this: we rarely allow automatic functionality (such as action bar swaps, or macros) to choose between core damage abilities on the player’s behalf. We believe it’s important that the player has to make those choices themselves. The Rogue Stealth bar has always been a minor exception to this, but for many years, the Stealth bar was only active for the single ability you used to open a combat, and was not seen again for the duration of combat (other than with Vanish). The ability to bind your openers to the same buttons as your rotational abilities was a convenience that didn’t affect your use of abilities in combat. However, the new Shadow Dance (and to a lesser extent Subterfuge), has resulted in some Rogues regularly using openers during combat, as elements of their rotation. In this case, the Stealth bar changes from a minor convenience that lets you place once-per-combat buttons on more convenient keybinds, to actually making regular, mid-combat decisions for you. That said, after following the ongoing discussions and carefully considering your feedback, we understand the desire for consistency with other abilities that allow Stealth-only actions. Given the gray area that Shadow Dance is in, and the widespread feedback that using the Stealth bar would be more consistent and intuitive, we’ve decided to go ahead and allow Shadow Dance to once again swap your main action bar. This hotfix is scheduled to live with weekly restarts in each region. A few details for players who use macros to further manage their buttons: Shadow Dance will be treated similarly to Subterfuge for the purposes of macro conditionals. It will not activate [stealth], but it will activate [stance:2]. If you want to make a macro that mimics the behavior of the main bar (i.e. swapping when you have any of Stealth, Vanish, Subterfuge, or Shadow Dance), you can use the macro conditional [bonusbar:1].Ornyx127 Nov 1
Oct 26, 2010 Welcome Rogues: Please Read! Welcome to the Rogue forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss the rogue class with your fellow World of Warcraft players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct ( and guidelines ( before posting. Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion, demote unhelpful comments, and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) and a "thumbs down" (Dislike) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. Clicking the "thumbs down" icon will expand a drop-down menu which will include "Dislike," "Trolling, "Spam" and "Report" options. "Dislike" will rate the post down. If enough people dislike a post, it will be darkened, and with a lot of dislikes it will be hidden completely. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. Have fun posting on these forums, and good luck with your adventures in Azeroth!Lylirra1 Oct 26, 2010
1m Rate that mog part 3! This one capped: I'll pick up where it left off. @Diusus Amazing mog. Looks good on a gnome. 10/10Jodelle65 1m
1m Tricks of Our Trade: Armies of Flyingfall ... My attempt at a name. Woo.Knocrogue471 1m
10m How legendary dependent is Sub? Wanna try sub but I only have outlaw legendary, no shoulders. WOuld it suck?Kahlooa5 10m
12m Rogue Class Mount Questline Rogue quest is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous... NONE of my other toons have had any difficulty getting their class mount, then I get the rogue quest to assassinate mobs IN HORDE Capitol Cities.... and it's absolutely #*)%% ridiculous. I died 6 times armor is wrecked just on the first one, over 400 gold repair bill and the location in Undercity is just unbelievably hard to get to. I DUMPED the quest... screw it, i'll live without the GOD #%#@ mount. Absolutely disappointed with WOW and STRONGLY considering just quitting the game completely at this point. Yes did read wowhead and other strategies and most didn't work or were vague on how to reach mob and successfully gank. For the other classes to have a straightforeward quest line and rogues to get this nightmare beyond belief is absurd in the extreemLoistenna12 12m
14m Sub n00b questions I got tired of Outlaw's RNG and tried Sub right as 7.2.5 was released. LOVE it. Still getting used to my rotation but before I get too used to it, wanted to ask if Icyveins is still the best place to consult for that. Also, I just love DfA and was wondering if I use that every time I would usually just use Evis. I love that it hits multiple targets and I LOVE the animation. Also, I got Kil'jaeden's legendary and was wondering where that fits best into the rotation. I'm just getting into PVP and I find Sub very strong with the tools I have to work with. What are the current best honor talents ATM? So far I am using: GM, RA, Ma, SB (but not sure about this), CB (which I love), and TB. Stat priority on IV is now: Agi > Mas > Vers > CS > H. Are there particular percentages that I should be aiming for and if so, what are they? Are there caps? Right now I am at 88% mas, 14% vers, 24% cs & 7% h. I'm very much at the beginning of gearing up and not sure if I will be raiding seriously. I leave raiding to my shaman. Lastly, I am having trouble deciding between DS & vigor. I am going with DS now, but could otherwise be convinced. My rogue has quickly become my favorite dps. Part of that is the dynamic rotation and all the nifty tools we have to work with. My new main!Insanguine0 14m
43m What happened to ganking sticky? That guide to ganking thread. Miss it. Had tips that I used in rp. Like a food item that let you track humanoids. Where'd the thread go?Sumnao6 43m
45m Help switching lego boots-lego bracers (Sin) Hey peeps. So with Legendary bracers (and ofcourse leggo Shoulders) simming higher than Legendary boots (and shoulders), I am starting the switch. I am just looking for some help from other assass rogues that have done this switch already in regards to rotation. My initial problems with the switch is that now Vendetta never comes close to lining up with Kingsbane, I am finding myself extremely energy starved as soon as Kingsbane comes off cooldown. I am trying to use Toxic blade just before Kingsbane every time and I am also trying to use kingsbane after I have refreshed garrote and rupture so as to not need to refresh them during kingsbane so i can focus on keeping the Envenom buff up the entire Kingsbane duration. What techniques have you guys been doing to make the rotation somewhat smooth and efficient without the legendary boots?? It is feeling extremely awkward for me at the moment after being so use to the smooth rotation with 3 x vendetta relics, legy boots and CoF. Am I supposed to hold TB and KB while get a fully refreshed garrote and 4 - 5 combo point rupture off on the target and then pool energy to FULL then pop toxic blade, then kingsbane and then mut-envenom on cd, (or mut and clip envenom buff??) Or do I just pop absolutely every cooldown as soon as it comes off cooldown? Just looking for what you guys are doing to try and figure it out faster. Thanks in advance for the help.Psychedelicx7 45m
45m Stealth question When I'm in stealth, can other players see the water rippling or bushes moving as I move through them? The npc's with the little blue radar eye thing - they can definitely see me? Or they have a chance at seeing me?Mojora9 45m
46m Sub pvp opener Let me paint a picture for you. 2v2 You (sub)/mage: Them double dps, one sapped opening on the other. What does you're opener look like. I need helps.Gball33 46m
55m Your Guide to Topping Charts: Tomb Update! Guide to Assassin Author Disclaimer: Alright guys! Tomb Update Out! Please, PLEASE take heed when I say that you should take ALL things on this guide with a grain of salt. Now more than ever gear variation is at it's highest, and there are many, MANY viable options moving into Tomb. I'm also only human, and while I've referenced a few people's testing, and many people's theorycrafting mistakes may have happened during our testing. So do offer your own input once you're done reading it! I'll do my best to cover every nook and cranny when it comes to the update and viable variations. I'll also be including legendaries in the guide now which I'll try to cover later. Also note that anywhere from minor to MAJOR guide adjustments may and likely will occur as more tuning will probably happen, and you'll all have access to the same content I have been testing and will be able to offer a much wider spread of data. Table of Contents 1. Spec Overview 2. Key Elements to Assassin 3. Quick Breakdown of Key Abilities 4. Tier in NH, Tomb, and what to use? 5. Talents 6. Relics 7. Trinkets 8. Legendaries 9. Stats? 10. Full builds and how they compare 11. The new talent Toxic Blades, and how to effectively use it. 12. So how do we compare to Subtlety and Outlaw? Are we worth playing still? 13. Raid Effectiveness 14. Final Notes 15. SimC Link for All rogues 1. Spec Overview: Assassin is a fantastic single target raider and performs well in high mobility fights Extremely Strong Single Target dps Quick cooldowns for bursting down high priority adds Minimal loss of dps when performing mechanics due to the nature of bleeds and poisons We are now Cleave Kings (Tomb Tier) Stronger multi-target than beforeGood Target Mobility Incredible Utility for Progression. The Strongest DPS retention when performing mechanics of the three specs 2. Key Elements To Assassin: - Extreme management of CP, Energy, and cooldowns - Decent Sustain Damage between bursts - More about strategizing than getting a perfect 65 APM rotation (Outlaw) 3. Quick Breakdown of Key Abilities Agonizing Poison: Hahhhh. Just kidding. Deadly Poison: This will be our bread and butter poison in Tomb. A pretty much static choice when comparing between this and Wound poison. It does some decent ticking damage and instant damage when re-applied. It also synergizes with our bleeds and gives us energy return. Mutilate: Our Filler skill and CP generator. We'll be using this to gain CP to perform our finishers. Envenom: Our nature damage finisher that offers great instant damage returns. It also gives us a buff that allows a better chance of applying poisons to the target. Garrote: A non Finisher Dot that should always be on the target to generate damage and energy returns. Rupture: Our CP Finisher Dot that should always be on the target to generate damage and energy returns. Vendetta: Our main cooldown ability. Gives us 20 seconds of increased damage on the target of our choosing. Alright really, does anyone need this? Let's move on. :D 4. Tier in NH, Tomb, and what to use? Alright guys. This is a really HOT topic that a lot of people are debating all over the forums and on the ptr. At first glance our tomb tier looks terrible. Boring to use for ST and bland bonuses. However with my internal testing and looking at the many sims that are now coming out, T20 is in fact doing more for us than T19 pound for pound. Yes, this means that T20 IS better. Not by much, but it is better. So What does this mean for us? Well it means a few things. I'm going to break down each 2p/4p for T19 and T20. T19 2P – Offers a Bleed on Mutilate usage, giving us a pretty consistent small damage dot on the target. Can be used very effectively on double-targets by tab swap mutilating during non burst periods (Aka Vendetta, Kingsbane, TB, Exsang not on a target). T19 4P – This used to be very strong, however has since fallen into decline. With the nerf on tier reducing this to 7% damage per bleed and no longer having AP to boost envenom damage, this is much much less enticing than it used to be. Don't be fooled by what we've grown used to. This is not that strong anymore. T20 2P – Ah yes, a lot of rogues were dissapointed with the damage nerf this took. It went from 60% to 30%. Let's be honest, for a 2p it was a fair nerf. Dev's have stated they don't want the 2p to offer 5% dps. So with that in line, it makes sense. It is still strong even with it being nerfed to 30%. It offers more dps pound for pound than both the T19 and T20 on ST. More than both of them combined. T20 4P – This leaves something to be desired for ST, it's really not that exciting to have or use, and the dps gain is marginal compared to old T19 + AP. However it's still showing good results, so despite how it feels you should use it. Also keep in mind that this is an incredible, INCREDIBLE dps boost when adds are involved. And in tomb, there are a LOT of target switching adds. Also Makes Thuggee slightly useless, for anyone who cares about that. So Ultimately despite our initial protests, T20 is the better tier, and should be used in all situations. There is some talk about T192P and T204P, which I will get into down the road. This is a viable option however for some early spoilers. And for those who value sims, here is a sim of the latest tier updates showing how each one compares. 5. Talents Tier 1: MP, EP, or Hemorrhage? Master Poisoner: Master Poisoner has been our go-to talent since NH and late EN. Right now with the removal of AP we're in a bit of re-evaluation of the talent. It still is strong and compared to sims performs around EP depending on stat weights. So I'd say play with both, do what feels comfortable. Elaborate Planning: EP has now emerged from it's NH coffin and is showing awesome results in tomb. For those of you who already clip SoT, clipping EP should come as second nature and offers great results. Try it out! Hemorrhage: I personally feel like this talent has fallen out of it's prime. I don't see much use for it. It pulls good damage no doubt but the other two outshine it in their own respective strengths leaving this talent second rate in most situations. Still not worth taking even in Tomb. Sorry Hemo lovers. (Me!!! D:) Tier 2: Nightstalker or Subterfuge? Both Nighstalker and Subterfuge are showing great results. Often to the point that I have a hard time comparing the two. Try them both out. Subterfuge is probably harder to pull off, but sim wise it IS showing to be better if only slightly. (Do note current APL is using nightstalker incorrectly.) I'd say the start of tomb before you get your tier, use Nighstalker. Once you get your T20 tier rolling it's more up to you. Tier 3: After DS nerf, Deeper Stratagem or Vigor? Vigor has been a commanding talent since NH's conception. I'm under the impression that it will still perform very well in Tomb. DS is doing fairly well now however with initial sims showing it doing good. So try out both. IMPORTANT NOTE: I have received multiple reports that people cannot seem to get DS to perform the same as vigor when it comes to live testing. So please keep that in mind. Sims are never always right off the bat. So do what gives you the best results! Tier 6: Toxic Blades, Alacrity, or Exsang?!? Oh God, They are all viable!? Toxic Blades: Toxic blades is the new talent to replace AP. It's not as strong inherently as AP, however with also being able to use DP it covers the whole AP left fairly well. It is currently what would be considered the strongest talent of the three. It's also fairly fun to use compared to old AP. Alacrity: Right now Alacrity is in a pretty good spot, it's not as strong as TB or Exsang, but it's only ever so slightly behind. 20K at the highest sims, and feels pretty good to use in extended fights. It's also the closest thing to old AP you'll get if you really adored that playstyle. Do note that it is the weakest of the three however in raw dps on ST. Exsanguinate: Exsanguinate is now back to 150% sped up bleeds! This along with AP dissapearing has made it a very strong contender in the talent row! It's ever so slightly weaker than TB but still a very strong option. If you loved Exsang back in the day and don't like current TB, try it out! Do note that your stat priorities are totally different for Exsanguinate. So you'll see less than optimal results without the right gear set. Tier 7: Venom Rush Venom Rush: Rogues might as well get Venom Rush Tattoo'd on us. It's stuck with us forever until it's made baseline. Rip T7 options. 6. Relics This one is a bit of a mystery right now. I have to rely on sims more for this as I do not have every relic combination available for testing. I can share my initial thoughts though and keep this updated as we find out more. Without boots, I was seeing cof + triple MA mess up the lining up of every other KB. Even with 1 MA and Cof Vendetta was still coming up before my second KB. So MA relics might not be ideal if you intend to use mantle + bracers. If you use boots in any fashion, double/triple MA + Cof will still be ideal. For other strong relics I'm honestly not sure. Rupture relics will be good, Garrote relics will be strong, and Master Alchemist might even prove to be a very strong contender. Keep them all if you have the option to grab them and wait for further results, or try them out yourself if you are brave enough :o 7. Trinkets: CoF - pretty strong right now. As long as we're using mantle, triple MA + Cof will show to be very strong as you can fit almost 2 vendetta's per Vanish. Frond - definitely a very strong trinket for us right now, especially with Ap no longer being a thing DoS is not even a close contender anymore. Infernal Cinders – It honestly didn't feel too bad, even if I was the only one using it. Seems viable when more people have it. Cradle of Anguish - felt pretty strong if you could somehow ensure you NEVER lose stacks. Almost impossible though. Umbra Moonglaives - fun to use, I couldn't find a good scenario to use this though. Vial of Ceaseless Toxins – A Weaker frond. Engine of Eradication – I got mixed results here. Sometimes this thing would be straight up AWESOME. And sometimes I'd hardly even see it proc once. However the Mastery bonus is huge here as it's now better than agility for TB users. So might replace frond. Trinkets to use? Probably Cof and Frond, honestly. Maybe infernal cinders when the whole raid has it? 8. Legendaries This is a Section I've always tried to avoid as it offers so much more depth to a guide, and it's really hard to properly predict what's best when legendaries come into play. But now that we all almost have all of them it's time to include it. So I'll go over what seems to be the best legendaries going into tomb. I'll list them in order of strength, and then I'll put some legendary combinations below it that offer good results. 1. Mantle of the Master Assassin – This thing has been our bis legendary since it's conception, and it appears to still hold the cake in that regard for tomb. If you have it, using it will never leave you wanting more out of your legendaries. It's very strong in all situations. 2. Zoldyck Family Training Shackles – This and boots are both very close contenders right now, but bracers are taking the 2nd spot come tomb. With DP coming back into play and us becoming more bursty utilizing bracer + burst during execute has shown some amazing results. It's also a very strong legendary for Exsanguinate builds, which are more viable now than ever. 3. Duskwalker's Footpads – Once the reigning king of Sin, has now taken more of a backseat for legendaries. While still strong and viable mantle and zoldyck are outperforming it on raw dps numbers. It's still extremely good though, don't be sad if you have to use it. Duskwalker's come with the prereq of having cof and at least double MA though, so keep that in mind. 4. The Empty Crown – Now this is a cool legendary. It's not as powerful as the others alone, but when combined with Mantle it's showing amazing results, almost as strong as Mantle + Bracer combo right now. It also smooths out our rotation since we have stronger energy return during kingsbane. And another note that we often overlook, it offers the highest amount of agility a legendary can offer, with BOTH stats being very good for us. So very strong overall. Might actually sim even better once we see the ilvl upgrade as the agility bonus will have an even larger disparity between it and the others. 5. The Rest. Don't get me wrong, there's still a clear dps list below the top 4, but the dps is so much lower I don't really want to get into min maxing for those. So if you're a new rogue, do your best to get at least 2 of these four (Good luck on your RNG friend.) Legendaries being used together for best results: Mantle + bracers Mantle + Crown Mantle + Boots (Mantle.. I hope you don't get nerfed.) Boots + Bracers (Must use 6P Sets 2P/4P) Bracers + Head Boots + Head 9. Stats Mastery – If you are using TB, mastery is now scaled even higher than our primary stat agility. (Woah..) According to initial sims at least. So you mastery stackers, do it even more! Critical Strike – Critical strike up to 25-26% is as value or more as mastery, and then starts taking a fall up to 31-32% crit, after that you are seeing large losses in value. Try not to stack it. If you are using Exsang or Alacrity Critical strike is valued a bit more than with TB past the 25-30% mark. Versatility – After you reach your crit breakpoint, vers is stronger than critical strike while weaker than mastery. Always nice to have some as it's a multiplier to your mastery % damage increase however. If you are Exsang it's your most valued stat past a 35-40% crit with Exsang. Haste – Still gross. 10. Full builds and how they compare So this section is going to be a bit messy as I haven't figured out how I want to organize it. I'll do my best to keep it concise and clear though. I will organize builds from legendary combinations, and then list talent variations inside of them. They will be listed loosely on the strongest dps for ST. (Certain combinations of talents for two legendaries might be weaker than other legendary setups, they will be organized by the highest potential damage of optimal talents.) The Mantle of Zoldyck - Legendaries: Mantle of the Master Assassin, Zoldyck Family Training Shackles Talent setups listed from strongest to weakest (Personal testing and preference comes into play here a lot.): 1. 1230011 (Note that Subterfuge is only listed as stronger with T20 Tier. Nightstalker is better without T20 2P) 2. 2230011 (EP has been shown to outperform MP on occassions, and if you have bad PB luck, EP is generally better. Less RNG, more consistency. Both are very close though regardless of which you choose. 3. 1210011 (Right now DS is showing good results on sims, so I'll include this. However please note that almost everyone I've talked to who has tested it has stated that Vigor is giving them better dps.) 4. 2210011 (Same as above) 5. 2210031 (Yep, Exsanguinate is showing some very promising results here. On sims you are seeing less than a 7k discrepancy dps wise when compared to the leading talent setup. This of course requires the correct stat weights. Cannot be used optimally with mastery stacking.) 6. 2230021 (Weaker than the other setups, but still performs well, only simming 20k below the top talent setup. Live testing showed slightly worse results, but I was the only one who tested this from my group of internals.) Tier: Use T20 2P and 4P. Usage of T20 2P and T19 2P Has shown decent results for those who do not have T20 4P. Trinkets: Frond, Cof, perhaps replace frond with another at some point. More testing needs done. The Empty Mantle - Legendaries: Mantle of the Master Assassin, The Empty Crown Talent Setups listed from strongest to weakest: 1. 2230011 2. 2210011 (Same as above with Previous DS iterations) 3. 1210011 (Same as above with Previous DS iterations) 4. 1230011 5. 2210031 (Same as previous iterations of Exsang, must have correct gear set. Can't Mastery stack) Tier: Use T20 2P and 4P. Usage of T20 2P and T19 2P Has shown decent results for those who do not have T20 4P. Trinkets: Frond, Cof, perhaps replace frond with another at some point. More testing needs done. The Mantle of Duskwalker - Legendaries: Mantle of the Master Assassin, Duskwalker's Footpads Talent Setups listed from strongest to weakest: 1. 2230011 2. 2210011 (Same as above with Previous DS iterations) 3. 1230011 4. 1210011 (Same as above with Previous DS iterations) 5. 2230021 (Alacrity seems to do fairly well with this setup. Definitely a dps loss, but still viable for those who like it. Much closer than it used to be with AP.) 6. 2220011 (Say whaaaattt?!? Anticipation?! Yeah, it seemed to do okay with this setup. Not sure why, but sims also seem to agree. I tested it on ptr and it did okay. Ended up similar to DS though in results, it wasn't as appealing as sims suggested, but it wasn't TERRIBLE.) Tier: Use T20 2P and 4P. Usage of T20 2P and T19 2P Has shown decent results for those who do not have T20 4P. Trinkets: Frond, Cof, perhaps replace frond with another at some point. More testing needs done. Zoldyck Duskwalker - Legendaries: Zoldyck Family Training Shackles, Duskwalker's Footpads Talent Setups listed from Strongest to weakest: 1. 2230011 2. 1230011 (6k Difference from Elaborate planning setup, so close it comes down to stat weights. More mastery = MP gets stronger, do some personal testing.) 3. 2230021 (7k Difference from Top Talent setup. Alacrity performs very strongly and near top here. If you hate TB and don't have mantle or want to use 6P setup, try this talent out!) 4. 1210011 (Same as above with Previous DS iterations) Tier: T19 2P + T20 2P + 4P. It's pretty critical if you don't want to use Mantle you have a 6p setup as you have to make up the dps somewhere. All in all you come very close if you have a 6p though, so don't feel too bad. Trinkets: Frond, cof, perhaps replace frond with another at some point. More testing needs done. Note: This Setup does not do well when compared to Mantle setups if you do not have at least full T20 2P. Get it ASAP. Also note that despite this being the last legendary combination, it's still very viable and puts out very good dps. 11. The new talent Toxic Blades, and how to effectively use it. Toxic Blades is the talent to replace the gaping hole AP left. While alone does not appear to provide enough to compensate, with the added ability to now use DP, a flat % damage buff to our class, and a bug fix on vendetta to now properly boost PB damage, it does actually end up being a decent replacement when used properly. So for people who haven't been testing TB extensively on the PTR you are probably like, how the heck do you use TB?! Well first please realize that TB runs a bit clunky, it's cooldown runs awkward to KB, and you'll find yourself holding onto it for KB. This means you'll NOT be using it off cooldown as it should always line up with KB. The idea here is similar to how KB has always functioned before, except now you want to fill in the last 8 seconds of KB with as much Mutilates and envenoms as possible. Quick rundown of how to work it: Ensure you have a long enough rupture/garrote duration to last the entirety of KB so you don't have to refresh those during your burst window. Try to conserve energy and CP where you can, you want as much as possible for the last 8 seconds. An ideal would be to have an envenom buff already loaded and going with energy saved still to utilize TB burst window. At 8 seconds left on KB pop TB, and then frontload as much as you can fit into that 8 second timeframe. You want to try and fill it with as many envenoms as possible and hope for a PB proc as that will amply boost your damage since TB boosts PB damage. NEVER use TB without KB unless the boss is going to die and you can't fit a full KB in or a mechanic is about to happen where you can't fit a full KB in but TB will be up by the time you start doing damage again. 12. So how do we compare to Subtlety and Outlaw? Are we worth playing still?. So naturally if you have read this whole guide you are pretty keen on staying Assassin I imagine, but is it even worth it? We'll do some quick comparisons and then summarize at the end. New Assassin vs Old Assassin: New Assassin is actually showing to be fairly decent, and a good contender to what Old AP Sin used to be. It's hard to say if we will scale as effectively without AP, but only time can tell. Our cleave is exceptionally better without AP now, and with the new T204P we will end up being the Strongest 2-3 target cleave out of all specs. Assassin vs Outlaw: Outlaw was looking extremely attractive for a long while as the PTR shaped up. However the latest nerfs on their tier really sucker punched their overall numbers. Now Outlaw is only looking to be on par with Sin for ST. This means that Sin should win during progression as DPS retention for performing mechanics is far superior with Assassin than it is with Outlaw. For 2-3 Target Cleave Assassin is also showing to be superior in damage once we get T204P. We don't hold a candle to Outlaw Burst aoe, but overall we're looking to be very strong. Assassin vs Subtlety: Subtlety is currently leading the charts on ST DPS. So if you were a pure ST DPS junkie, subtlety is indeed doing some work. However all is not lost. Almost all fights in Tomb have adds of some sort, often being fairly strong adds where we can utilize our Cleave spread very well. Overall we should not feel inferior to Subtlety. Also note that while DPS retention of sub is better than outlaw, it is still inferior to Assassin's. So overall we should feel pretty good going into Tomb even if our overall highs are lower than sub. Summary for entering Tomb: Don't feel discouraged Assassins. You will still be a very strong spec, and possibly the strongest when looking at overall effectiveness. We might fall behind during farm content, but this has been the case in NH as well when comparing to outlaw. So if you wanted to Stay sin, rest assured. Your choice will not hurt you. Raid Effectiveness Single Target: 8.5/10 Aoe Fights: 4/10 Cleave Fights: 9.5/10 Heavy Mechanic fights with lots of time off Boss: 8.5/10 Mechanics that make boss immune: 7.5/10 Overall Score: 38/50 Final Notes Overall we're still an awesome spec going into Tomb. Sure, our Tier is boring for ST and TB feels clunky to use. But for raw dps we're still in the mix. Subt may beat us on pure ST and Outlaw may beat us on Aoe burst, but when it comes to progression raiding and cleave damage, we're top tier. We will still end up topping a lot of rogue charts as cleave is a very heavy thing in Tomb. It's been stated multiple times that Tomb is the “Raid that is ST focused with Adds”. We're looking pretty solid guys. That can change in the upcoming patch Tuesday, and we may find ourselves in a better or worse position than we initially thought as the weeks progress but overall we are still a spec worth taking. Also please if you have ANY results that have come up different than what I have posted, do not hesitate to post those in the comments! The guide is only half of what helps the rogue community, most of it comes from the very valuable discussion in the comments section that breaks down everything I couldn't hope to! So offer your input! Keep the flow of discussion rapid and let's ensure we can get the best information out to the public possible! SimC Link for All rogues For those interested, here's a decent reference chart to look at what's happening with dps sims when comparing legendaries, talents, and tier set combinations. Pretty great to look at so don't hesitate! Do note that I believe the APL will be updated soon if it hasn't already, so sim numbers may change! – Overall great place to look at all the comparisons if you like looking at generic sims (Not reliable for personal testing. Always do personal simming and/or live tests) – Sim of 5 minute fight with adds using T202P/4P – Sim of ST 5 minute fightNeverrz3593 55m
1h Outlaw T20 sims bad. I'm not entirely sure if I'm making a mistake, but an entire heroic t20 set in my current t19 slots is simming as a 15k dps loss. If this is correct, then the 50% 2 piece nerf and 47% 2 piece nerf before ToS ever went live were a death sentence to any hope we had this tier.Emboskarr5 1h
1h Trying Outlaw - Energy Starved I'm currently level 102 and in loving it so far but sometimes I find myself with no energy and nothing to use and just get the crap smashed out of me. Then I get enough energy back for a saber slash and if i get a free pistol shot proc I'm away dpsing nicely again. I've tryed using vigor talent and it doesn't seem as bad. Is this normal for outlaw?.Harumaph3 1h
1h The butthurt is growing.... The cries and wails of the general population are growing my rogue friends. Be it trade chat, guild chat, bg chat, general chat, or just plain ol /s chat...Rogue complaints and qq are getting stronger, and more vicious by the day. Rejoice in our new found position of power. It is a lot of fun to be the apex predator in the world death-match quests. Nobody wants anything to do with us. The Havok's of the world can suck it. Now, when they see us in stealth, they run away, instead of running to us.Fatmaggie12 1h
1h Outlaw: Deeper Stratagem VS Vigor Hi Outlaw Experts, After getting the Thunderfury appearance, I wanted to give Outlaw a go again (looking so damn cool). Initially I had Deeper Stratagem as my tier3 talent, but it just doesn’t flow very well, on the training dummy, I was getting ~550k DPS. Energy starvation felt pretty strong here. Then, I swapped the talent to Vigor, OMG everything just felt right. No energy starvation problem, I can spam saber slash + run through over and over, was netting ~650k DPS. Note that both tests are single target based. I didn’t use any consumables. I understand Outlaw is very RNG based so maybe the buffs I got from my 2nd test was better than the 1st, so I would love to hear about what you think and your experience playing this spec. Thanks in advance for your feedback!Spikiera2 1h
1h Potw vs Dirty Tricks Which is best for Outlaw PvP? I noticed Prey on the Weak doesn't work with stun gun. :OKratia4 1h
2h Anyone else unhappy with the Rogue mount? Like, in terms of what it is. I never really envisioned us riding a raven. And aesthetically it looks a bit too basic for me. I like the unique casting animation and the shadow effects it trails behind, but beyond that we just ride a bird. Maybe the bird needs to be made out of more shadow, I dunno.Malefic2 2h
2h Which spec should i start with? Hey I'm planning to start making rogue for the first time and i want to start focusing on Raids and Mythic as much as possible. Which spec should i play for TOS and mythic dungeons in term of DPS?Thashir2 2h
3h Sub Rogue - Backstab? are we using backstab at all? it doesnt seem to be in any guide's rotation?? just leave this off-bar?Mojora10 3h
4h pvp macro gibe me all macro daddySïnatra2 4h
4h Roll a Rogue? Title says it all. Mained a WE last expansion but wanted to try my true love again. I mainly PvP, so how are they doing?Falerelan5 4h
5h Thinking of making a rogue To start off, a brief summary of what I've done so far: I've played warrior since i started playing the game, I tried paladin, death knight, monk, priest, hunter, and demon hunter. Fury seems like the only spec/class I enjoy because of it's consistency, and from what I've been reading rogues have a very inconsistent rotation. I would like to know some positives and negatives of playing a rogue. I can see that they have much, much better defensives (if thats what you want to call it, I am referring to vanish/self heal thing/100% dodge thing) and seem to do very good damage.Honkery7 5h
5h Next expansion Outlaw idea So outlaw kinda missed the mark this go around but I think it could definitely be great next expansion. Why not turn it into a type of gunslinger spec? It's pretty hard to make 3 specs for rogue feel special if they are all melee. Just me thinking out loud at work I'm sure its been said before. If anything else just a neat idea.Captáin17 5h
8h Legendary gearing advice please! :) Hey all, So I got my 4th legendary last night, Satyr's Shadow Walk. The boots I've been after this entire time, lol. But I've begun to realize, my energy problems from before 7.2.5 aren't really a thing anymore. Symbols of Death gives energy when I need it, and everything just feels a lot smoother. Plus with the teleport removed from Shadowstrike outside of the opener and when I use Vanish, the energy gains on the boots don't seem as useful. However, they're 970 instead of 940 so I'm still probably gonna use them. Question is which legendary do I replace? I'm using Cinidaria and Ravenholdt right now, and I like both of them. (My 3rd legendary, unequipped, is Xavaric's) If anything I'll probably get rid of the Ravenholdt ring, but could use some input beforehand. Thanks!Malefic2 8h
8h Does Rouge look better in 7.2.5 On my Rogue? I think the color looks great.Phay0 8h
8h Outlaw or sub for pvp Hello, I was wondering if outlaw is still viable for PvP and if sub beats it for much. Thanks.Brori10 8h
9h Sub Rogue Buggy? Ive been playing sub rogue lately and it seems very buggy. Whenever i teleport to the enemy it feels like after my abilities dont go off. My ping is perfect and my fps is fine but my abilties say not in range and im not even an inch from them... and i dont have this problem as any other spec.. Does this happen to anyone else?Casualtony4 9h
9h Assassin Relic Choice As we move further through ToS what relics should we be targeting? In most of the raids I have done since 7.2.5 released I have observed deadly poison as my top damage most of the time. Is it worth giving up the Master Assassin relics in favor of Master Alchemist? Let me know your thoughts.Melchiorc0 9h
9h Mask of Artful Dodging I'm not sure if this is considered hidden and unobtainable still, but I wanted to let people here know I got it from the small coin chest from Noggenfogger.Cynomys16 9h
13h Rouge is Underpowdered Changes in 7.2.5 are nice. But something is still missing.Tavlina11 13h
13h Just got soul of the shadowblade Aside from being 970. How does everyone feel about this ring? After play testing for a little it adds a decent amount of fluidity to Outlaw (totally Negates BF penalty) by removing any and all downtime outside of AR. I tried it with Sub and it also made it feel a lot smoother. How does everyone feel about it?Stinger3 13h
13h Sub rogue mythic+ talents So I'm trying different talents for mythic+ but I don't know what is really the BEST for them with the 7.2.5 update If you could help me out and tell me what you use that would be great! Thanks for your help!Mazerron1 13h
15h The good, the bad, and the gunslingers? Anyone else feel that it would have been an interesting for Blizz to turn Outlaw rogue into a gunslinger of sorts? Duel wield pistols? Give rogues a ranged DPS class similar to how they turned Survival hunters into melee. I understand they took away the "skilled swordsman" and turned them into a pirate which I feel like is a drastic change as is. Interested on yall takes.Atales8 15h
18h Death From Above When picking up Death from Above as Sub, should it replace Eviscerate? Or just used for AoE?Inovindyl2 18h
18h Outlaw PvP Hi, I'm relatively new to rogue... I played combat alot many years ago and I've been really enjoying Outlaw. I just had a few questions. I typically play RBGs more so than Arena. 1. DS vs. Vigor - Granted I am only level 64, but I feel kind of energy starved and It seems sort of difficult to get a 6 point combo, is Vigor viable at all at level 110? 2. Ghostly Strike vs. Quick Draw - Is Quick Draw viable at all? I see alot of people with Ghostly Strike. 3. Roll the Bones - When is a good time to reroll now that 7.2.5 has come out and changes were made? Thanks guys. <3Rylence3 18h
20h I Think I Picked The Wrong Spec? I'm leveling a Rogue for fun because healing can get kind of boring and to be honest, I don't like the 1 DPS spec I have. Out of the gate I went assassination, I think I should have gone with Outlaw. I'm right aren't I?Revenimus19 20h
20h Subtlety hidden appearance Blizzard, can you please increase the key droprate. I can't even get good practice on the run because it's so low. This is one of the few heavily RNG gated appearances. It is not behind just one, or two or three RNG checks, but four. The first RNG is to get the quest for Marin or his coin from pick pocketing (yes I know this can be forced). The second RNG is on the turn in to get the scenario keys. The third RNG is the 20% chance to get a key in the scenario gold chests. Finally the fourth RNG is if the chest you open has the appearance. I'm not asking for anything in the last two RNG checks to change. I just want a better chance to get keys for running the scenario. Currently I'm lucky if I get one key a week.Emrill5 20h
22h 7.2.5 sub rotation Hey dudes, I just came back (stopped after first raid for a while), and sub is pretty different now. I like the changes, but the rotation is way different, I haven't even figured it out yet. My normal source of icy veins isn't updated yet (still says pop SoD immediately which can't be right). What does your guys pve rotation look like? What talents do you think are must-haves? Are there any good guides that are updated for 7.2.5?Tynsil1 22h
1d Help me pick a race for rogue! Looking for rogue race Suggestions Can be any factionEatulater28 1d
1d Rogues need a buff The cd on Sprint needs to be lowered. Thanks Edit: After reading the post below me. We need prep back also.Arros26 1d
1d A. rogue tier 20 bonuses are the worst ever Does nobody on the development team play an assassination rogue? The 2 set especially is probably the most worthless bonus I have seen for a dps spec since burning crusade. It seriously does nothing for our damage in the vast majority of situations. The bonuses are so bad I am confident it will be a dps upgrade to continue using mythic nighthold pieces or upgrade to full non tier pieces. Seriously this is REALLY bad. That's to say nothing about how uninspiring and boring it is to tie a set around garrote...Dominanox11 1d
1d Toxic Blade V.S. Alacrity Hi guys, Is it just me or is Alacrity still the best level 90 talent? I tried Toxic Blade on the dummy but the average DPS is still less than if I spec'd into Alacrity. Alacrity: ~600k DPS Toxic Blade: ~550k DPS Has any of you compared the two talents? Toxic Blade definitely allows bigger burst, but overtime it doesn't seem to trump Alacrity by much.Spikiera12 1d
1d 'Assassin' rogue PvP? Do I have to go Sub to feel like a genuine Assassin? Now ...please bear in mind that I am still in the leveling process, so things may be very different at max level and with full traits? However, so far (at level 105) I really don't 'feel' like an assassin in PvP while playing Sin Rogue spec! I feel more like a steady pressure rogue, my damage doesn't really seem that scary in PvP so far as Sin. Just kind of puts some pressure on a healer and more of a 'Nuisance' Rogue than an Assassin Rogue so far. I want to be able to pick a target and kill them flat!!!!! To me That's what an assassin does!!!! It is kind of killing the class fantasy for me, because no one hardly ever dies in PvP whenever I open on them., I'm more of an annoyance than anything truly terrifying! In fact their health bars barely drop, I'll put it like this, no one is really fearing for their life whenever I open on them. That's a bummer for me as far as class fantasy goes. Also, I'm finding I'm pretty easy to kite. All this may indeed improve at max level and whenever I get more Artifact slots open???? Do I have to roll into Sub in order to actually be able to 'assassinate' someone? (Or at least scare the crap out of them). Is Sin more capable of actually 'assassinating' other player in PvP at max level?Verminator6 1d
1d You have learned ability [shiv] You have unlearned ability [shiv] You have learned ability [shiv] You have unlearned ability [shiv] You have learned ability [shiv] You have unlearned ability [shiv] You have learned ability [shiv] You have unlearned ability [shiv] You have learned ability [shiv] You have unlearned ability [shiv] You have learned ability [shiv] You have unlearned ability [shiv] You have learned ability [shiv] Anyone else get to endure this every time they take shiv in PvP and get this spammed in their log all BG, or in sewers, or in world pvp?Hanibalecter5 1d
1d TOMB: Maiden fight You can cloak the bomb off. You're welcome.Giggleblush9 1d
1d Hows rogue's? DPS and Fun wise. Thinking of using my 100 boost on a rogue..are they fun? and most important for a DPS spec is are they viable?? i like the assasination theme. Thanks.Harumaph5 1d