Apr 13 Sub Rogue 7.2.5 Suggestion Edited: Apr 10, 2017 With the impending changes coming in 7.2.5 I was hope we (the Sub rogue community) could take the opportunity to add some suggestions for change. With this in mind, I'd like to emphasize that this should be forward thinking. I understand the sentiment amongst some players that previous iterations of Sub was amazing. Whether or not this is true (I took a long hiatus after WotLK), the point is that it's changed and it will continue to change. This is fact. Anyways moving on, currently I don't believe Sub is in a bad place. I think the major disinterest is the fact that Sub requires more work for ultimately less than the sister spec Sin. Also the dependence on the legendary boots is substantial for an overall smooth rotation. I can also wholly agree that Sub lost it's distinct heavy burst feel. What is our burst window is actually our standard rotation. There's a few things I attribute this too: 1) Symbols of Death 2) Damage disparity in/out of stealth 3) Talent choices (specifically Subterfuge and Premeditation) Individually, all these amount to very little. However, the feedback loop these three attribute causes is what makes Sub as it is now, which is: Extreme reliance on Shadowdance -> which feeds, Extreme reliance on SS to build combo points. To the point that it's wiser to avoid using Backstab -> which feeds, Being crippled when out of stealth/SD charges -> which feeds, Loss of rotation and potentially further crippling ourselves if we lose Symbols. So the subject I'd like to tackle is Symbols of Death. I actually don't hate this ability, I hate the execution of this ability. Yes, I understand you need to be cognizant and have foresight to account for this in your rotation. But it's not fun; it's not interesting. Its negative feeling (I've just lost 20% damage) heavily outweighs its positive feeling (I'm dealing 20% more damage). But I believe a better Symbols execution can solve many issues with Sub right now. With the insight from Blizzard that they want to change Sub's AoE to extreme single target damage, I think this presents a great opportunity to change Symbols. For reference the idea on the table is Shuriken Storm causes Evis to deal X% more dmg per Y target's hit. I really, really like this idea. However if taken at face value, it has the potential to cause Shuriken Storm to be included in a ST rotation which doesn't make sense. My suggestion is having two different Symbols, one for standard rotation and another for AoE. Symbols should be active until swapped. They can be swapped anytime, but at a significant cost outside stealth + a CD. Then a final empowered version for Shadowdance to effectively become our burst. The goal is to removed Symbols as a maintenance buff - and more of a forethought of how to address a given situation. Symbols of Shadows - 10 energy in stealth/60 energy outside stealth Increases damage by X% Increases proc rate of Shadow Techniques by 30% Active component - Next two autoattacks (honouring internal cooldown) will proc Shadow techniques 20 sec cooldown. Shared with Symbols of Assault Symbols of Assault - 10 energy in stealth/60 energy outside stealth Energy Regen increased by 10% Shuriken Storm increases Eviscerate damage by 25% per target hit stacking up to 4 times. Buff overwrites and do not add to the previous buff. Active component - Next Eviscerate will critically hit. 20 sec cooldown. Shared with Symbols of Shadows Sub rogue should be prepared for a given scenario. Swapping should be a chore but not excessive - It should be done in stealth/SD. This is the purpose behind the hefty cost out of stealth + long cooldown. The distinction between these two Symbols should be crystal clear: Single target consistency vs heavy increase on single target "AoE." Shadow techniques - I actually like this passive. It fits and it should help augment our rotation by assisting with combo point generation. Currently ST has a proc rate of about 1CP/5 hits. I think this should be upped a little to proc around 3-4 hits. Note that there is an internal cooldown of 3 hits. The goal is that every combo bar rotation should have at least 1 CP generated from ST. This is meant to address the current heavy reliance on Premed for CP (which also effectively locked up to a SS/SD spam) Symbols of Death - Baked into Shadowdance. SD now costs 10 energy. Empowers your current Symbol to a Deathly variant. Symbols of Deathly Shadows Increases damage by X + Y% Increases proc rate of Shadow Techniques by 60% (reduces internal CD to 1 autoattack) Shadow Techniques procs deal X shadow damage. Next two autoattacks (honouring internal cooldown) will proc Shadow techniques Lasts the duration of Shadowdance. Symbols of Deathly Assault Energy Regen increased by 20% Haste increased by 20% Shuriken Storm increases Eviscerate damage by 25% per target hit stacking up to 6 times. Buff refreshes and adds to previous buff. Next Eviscerate will critically hit. Lasts the duration of Shadowdance. Shadowdance should be were our burst is. It should be the small window where we can unleash everything we have. So I think it's natural that Symbols of death should be baked into SD to achieve this. It should turn us into a beast for a few seconds. Symbols of Deathly Shadows should be a pure increase to everything. The suggestion to include shadow damage is to augment our output. The final point is that we should be overflowing with combo points during this period - the only limit should be the GCD. Since we are losing a charge of Shadowdance and losing the refund rate, Shuriken Storm's extra 200% dmg becomes negligible. The extra regen and haste is meant to target the GCD to hammer out as many Evis as possible to compensate. Also with the stacking, in certain niche scenarios it might make sense to pop this version with SD on ST. This should be a cognizant and interesting choice when made (for example during period of heavy increased damage - Curator/Skorpyron).Sephiron66 Apr 13
Apr 13 Loaded Dice buffed to 45s Loaded Dice stays up for 45s now. Keep your good buffs and get a 2 buff later on XD.Dlog0 Apr 13
Apr 13 Cant untoggle Blade Flurry? Anyone else getting that !@#$ where you can't untoggle blade flurry? Im using base UI so that shouldn't be the problem?Zorop3 Apr 13
Apr 13 Sub Rogue pvp issues The 15% increase in evis and night blade were nice for pve making sub a little closer to balanced with the other 2 specs. As far as changing the stupid stealth bar back. It is irrelevant. If you aren't used to your new binds and the stealth bar by now then you need to step your game up. The real issue right now that needs to be adressed is the lack of dmg sub provides compared to the other specs. Without preperation all rogues are much more squishy. A major issue right now is the fact that nightblade is shadow dmg and can be stopped or dispelled very easily. Considering it's one of the 2 major finshers for sub it makes subs dmg much less effective forcing you to focus on evis and just keep the slow from nightblade up. Either nightblade needs to be undispellable, harder to stop, or increase evis dmg in pvp. Sub has great crowd control, but the lack of dmg when you consider the amount of dmg other classes do is not is not worth the crowd control sub has.I have played since the game first came out. I have played all specs over this time. I have primarily played sub rogue and have played high end in both pve and pvp it is dissappointing to see it in the state its in. Esspecially for pvp. I hope the devs view this post and take it seriously to fix the real issues at hand instead of some petty stealth bar change. Thank.Darkkris24 Apr 13
Apr 13 Does Assass suck currently? PvP Sup! So here is the story, I just finished my Skirm Weekend Bonus, and I decided to do while bonus as Assassination. I play Sub and Assassination as my alt specializations, and have the 10% stam and dmg trait for both of those specs. While playing Assass in skirms it just felt terrible to play. I decided to play out all of these games to see if it changes, but whole time I felt that the spec feels kinda garbage. Mind you I don't mean damage (thats another story) but just when playing it, applying putpure, garrote, getting creeping venom, and going through my abilities it felt terrible to play. I felt energy starved often, the dots I applied didn't feel meaningful at all, and my burst felt like a all-in or bust. Use Artifact Weap + Vendetta, and kinda flail outside of my burst. It also doesn't help when I invest 5 CP into a vendetta target, and my bleed ticks are around 37k-41k a pop while a demon hunter's bleed is around 88k. I know some classes are supposed to be hard hitting, WoW PvP balance isn't the greatest thing in the world, but man does it feel off when I am taking a while to set up my dots, poison and bleeds, and my sustain damage is (pirate)booty, while paladins are smacking their target for 300k a gcd without any burst or setup. At the early days of the expansion when Assass was tearing through everyone the damage and the set up felt justified for PvP. They cost energy and CP, but due to lack of CC your abilities hit for a solid amount. Currently it just doesn't feel satisfying, but rather a chore lol! In reference to which version of Assass I would point to that feels good would be back in WoD. WoD isn't great of an xpac, but the PvP for Assass was nice. Setting up only rupture on targets felt good, getting DfAs was great with burst or without, dots seemed to be worth spreading around for solid damage, and you had vanish 5 cp to make the spec feel like it wasn't energy drained all the time. So am I just crazy? Or am I just bad? (I just my duelist and my mom is very proud of me BTW) Or does Assass kinda feel bad to play for other people? Or does it feel good for you? I actually wanna know, cus maybe I am doing something wrong hereDalaranxd22 Apr 13
Apr 13 Sub as main spec? For normal and heroic raid progression, pvp, Mythic + and world content. I have 3 fairly geared toons... Hunter, Monk and Rogue that are all Melee. I really love the Rogue class fantasy and it's one of my oldest tooms. Sin just feels squishy when soloing and energy starved when raiding. Which is why I'm leaning towards sub but there seems to be some disparity in what I'm reading per sub dps. Just looking for some insight. I know a lot of people say "play what's fun" but that's not great when people see your spec and won't let you into their Mythic group... SV hunter is prime example. Thanks in advance!Trulore51 Apr 13
Apr 13 Gear Advice Help Plz! If i have 4 lvl 860 set pieces from the Nighthold Raid so im getting both set bonuses. Is it worth replacing those 860 set pieces and losing the set bonus to acquire the new 880+ gear we can buy at the Broken Shore?Ravenscar2 Apr 13
Apr 13 Secert ways into Rogue Class Hall I found two new ways into the Rogue Call Hall using <Lay your insignia on the table.> The first one I found is in the blacksmith crafting house. Go upstairs and talk to Mongar <Mining Vendor>. This back up opens traning dummy room. I searched the internet and found the second one in the "One More Glass". Talk to Lucian Trias <Bread & Cheese Vendor>. This is on the other side of the long hallway that we normally enter. After you talk to either of them, click on the old style door knocker near them to enter the Rogue CLass Hall. Does anyone know if there are more?Nighthand31 Apr 13
Apr 13 Reliable sin AoE Who here thinks it's time sin rogues had reliable AoE? I think a good way to do this would be for Death from Above to have a 100% proc chance for Bag of Tricks. Keep the 20 sec cooldown, but atleast give sin rogues a way to AoE without having to pray to the WoW gods.Jayto14 Apr 13
Apr 13 Tess Greymane's mounts Why of all things is Tess Greymane riding a ratstallion and a nether ray? I found it funny to have Vanessa riding on the turtle, her personality is already over the top and it pushed it over the edge, I am now used to the Black Stallion though and it fits better. I switched to Tess as my new bodyguard and it just irks me every time I see that rat.Harlekijn0 Apr 13
Apr 13 What is the best race for a Rogue? Also, since i'm new to rogue. What should i spec in, and what do i need to focus on gear wise? Agility & Stamina? Please help!Dkota31 Apr 13
Apr 13 Tier 20 + Hemo So when we finally come into our 4 piece set, which grants Mutilate a bleed effect at 2 pc, and increase Envenom damage per bleed effect, would I generally want to take Hemo at that point? Since it synergizes well with the 4 pc bonus? I know Hemo damage is on the low end, but it seems to add up more in theory, as it increases 3 other bleeds damages, which providing a 4th to even increase Envenom. Thoughts on this?Pheon12 Apr 13
Apr 13 Rogues and Pvp Could someone explain to me why subtlety is supposed to be the best spec for pap in 7.2? I feel like I'm doing no damage at all in arena and battlegrounds, thank you.Jhìn12 Apr 13
Apr 13 Which spec for pve? Looking specifically for mythic+ and some raiding nixed inBowlita0 Apr 13
Apr 13 Sin Rotation Hey guys.... whats the priority rotation for Assassins Rogues in this new patch (for raid)? Thank you for now Yours,Sneakybeaky2 Apr 13
Apr 13 Will 7.2.5 be good for sub pvp? Would love your thoughts. Go! -noob rogueQuarval1 Apr 13
Apr 13 Foolproof 101 way to use shoulders in 7.2? Just got them (and all assassination dps legies :D) I just wondered if some1 could tell me the right way to use them (with DoS and 4set bonus) since idk if everything I've read so far is considering the stealth nerf they gave to subterfuge. Tldr, best sin rotation for Shoulders + Dos? Are stats still 25% crit (at least) and 150% Mastery when you equip shoulders?Vaskein2 Apr 13
Apr 13 Which trinket is best for me? To start off being an older man I am not really good with simulations. That being said, I just wanted to ask if the stat stick I am currently wearing is better then the 885 DoS I got last night. While we are at it if you can see any fixable things with my gear or "other things" set up I would appreciate the feed back.Guzzlle2 Apr 13
Apr 13 Crackers Hello Rogues! I leveled up my Rogue and one of the reasons I did so was cause on the PTR part of the class campaign got us the pet Crackers, and he sits on your shoulders! I was wondering if this unlocked now because I haven't found anything yet on this. Thank you!Harami11 Apr 13
Apr 13 Special attacks 'missing' Hey, Running into some weirdness where mutilate whifs at random and mobs show 'immune' when this happens. Mostly happens the first few attacks after opening with garrote and doesn't discriminate between trash or boss. Energy/CP's doesn't seem to make a difference either. I messed with the latency setting in advanced interface options to remedy to no avail. Also removed the mod with the same results. Any ideas anyone?Jarläxle6 Apr 13
Apr 13 what is going to be done with sub self heals? anything? it's terrible!Muggler1 Apr 13
Apr 13 Good pvp resources Hey guys. Been out of the game for a good minute and my pvp game is What are some good resources to learn more about our class's state in pvp? Streamers, tutorial vids, guides etc. Thanks!Curonue3 Apr 13
Apr 13 Lilian Voss/Tess Greymane as combat ally? Information on these new champions is virtually non-existent; has anyone used them yet? What do they do as bodyguard and as support? How effective are they? I am just curious!Nalliah1 Apr 13
Apr 13 Vanessa VanCleef Is an Outlaw Rogue wielding Daggers. No wonder she does such crappy DPS as a follower.Xelthulor6 Apr 13
Apr 12 Energy Regen Low? Is this the new norm? It feels like I'm waiting an eternity between any attack. I noticed that Icy Veins seems to condemn haste as a stat, so are rogues just settling for only attacking once a decade?Irisae3 Apr 12
Apr 12 DEVS: Loaded Dice suggestion. Hello, I'll try keep it brief, as I'm sure what I'm about to suggest has been suggested before. Firstly, I'd like to say that Loaded Dice has been a pretty nice QoL change. That said, it has room for improvement so here are my thoughts and suggestions. 1) On bosses we will almost always use Marked for Death (MfD) ---> Roll the Bones (RtB). If we get a good 2+ buff combo or true bearing, we will immediately go into our burst rotation with Curse of the Dread Blades (CotDB) and it is in these situations that the new trait is completely wasted because it has a timed duration. By simply making the buff provided by Loaded Dice a static buff until your next RtB would significantly improve the usefulness of this trait by allowing us to chain together a guaranteed 2+ buff after our initial burst window. 2) I can understand how with the Convergence of Fate (CoF) trinket and the current iteration of True Bearing(TB) that making the loaded dice buff static could cause some potentially ridiculous numbers if a rogue is lucky and continuously chains together lucky TB with the added benefit of another buff. However, in the next tier that will likely not be the case. Changes are already in the works for RtB and I can only imagine that TB is on the chopping block. Coupled with that, Blizzard has already stated that they wish for ilvl to determine upgrades, and I would hope that this applies to trinkets within tomb because it would be a poor design if CoF continues to remain best in slot due to its synergy with Loaded Dice. Simply put, TB is likely to change and one would hope that CoF is going away as well. If both possibilities become reality, Loaded Dice would be even more underutilized in situations when we use Adrenaline Rush with 2 good buffs already because over the course of the fight Adrenaline Rush would happen less often. All in all, I know changes to outlaw are coming, but if the class updates do turn out to still lean towards a "reroll until you have 2+ buffs or buff X" design, I feel that this new trait should become a static buff until RtB is cast again to actually make it impactful during good openers and not just as a bad luck protection on RtB. P.S: Sorry I didn't keep it brief, and could you bless me with a Greenskin's Waterlogged Cuff's drop? <3Combatical3 Apr 12
Apr 12 Ghostly Strike - Outlaw Curious what abilities this move effects? Does it effect our main Gauche mastery procs?Stickiriki5 Apr 12
Apr 12 SnD Better Than RtB Tried out SnD and saw a dramatic increase in DPS. The buffs form RtB are great, but 80% of the time I'm re-rolling to get at least two buffs, meanwhile, the other DPSers are happily topping charts. Not fun, really. Not sure why I'm getting better numbers from SnD, I didn't used to. Maybe it's my gear/legendarys. Dunno. What are your thoughts? Anyone else prefer SnD? Hate it? Discuss.Nintai7 Apr 12
Apr 12 How are rogue's looking in 7.2? Back from a 4 month break... Thanks in advance!Cudi1 Apr 12
Apr 12 MA Relics So with Boots and CoF it was recommended to have 2 MA relics to line up Kingsbane with Vendetta every time almost but with our new gold trait that lowers Kingsbane CD it is all messed up. Do I still want MA relics or should I go for rupture ones?Cam2 Apr 12
Apr 12 Poison Bomb bug = 0 procs entire fight so aside from receiving a buff to PB I've encountered a bug that seems to occur quite frequently. will happen multiple fights in a row until I take off my wpn and re-equip it. I can go 2-3 pulls in a row without a single poison bomb (5 minute long pulls) while 70% of the time it maintains itself underneath rupture and envenom can someone else confirm if this ever happens to them, thanks prior to this update even when PB was more rare I never had a single pull with 0 pb procsVeranova21 Apr 12
Apr 12 OUTLAW STATS NEED TO BE BROUGHT BACK Outlaw is sitting at around 0.49%-0.69% per point of a stat Stat Weight for Outlaw Agility: 1.00 Versatility: 0.69 Critical Strike: 0.58 Mastery: 0.54 Haste: 0.49 Stat weight for Subtlety Agility: 1.00 Mastery: 0.90 Versatility: 0.81 Critical Strike: 0.75 Haste: 0.71 Stat weight for Assassin Agility: 1.00 Mastery: 0.86 Versatility: 0.70 Critical Strike: 0.63 Haste: 0.46 Any particular reason why we have nearly half the stat benefits than our other specs?Dreadwing3 Apr 12
Apr 11 Sin rogue alt Hello rogue community, i have been contemplating living my rogue to 110 as a main alt pretty much 2nd in command to this monk. what are your guys views hehe on the current state of sin rogues and is it beginner friendly??Views4 Apr 11
Apr 11 Where is Tess Graymane in Hall? I picked up the quest from Maiev for [Champions of Legionfall] and she told me to go back to the hall to get Tess. I can't find her, help please!Ayjia1 Apr 11
Apr 11 Regarding maximum follower capacity Was it really increased by 1 ( without the advancement ) or I'm having severe hallucinations?Omgbak8 Apr 11
Apr 11 Rogue campaign Nothing makes me more nervous than popping out of stealth to burn a chest when I know there's more of you bastards that I can't see.Rawnblade4 Apr 11
Apr 11 Vanessa VanCleef Stealth Nerf. No longer rides a turtle, haven't been able to see if she still rides a Pandaren Phoenix when on certain Kirin Tor WQ's.Krucifire17 Apr 11
Apr 11 Rogue Campaign Help Hi, I am lost with the rogue campaign. Lvl 110 with 2 followers. Zero quests in the class hall and no campaign missions available. Talked to every npc in hall. Any ideas what I could have missed?Chaotos17 Apr 11
Apr 11 Insignia Vs. Greenskin How much of a dps difference is there between the two. I just rolled 925 bracers and it would be a shame to replace them. Greenskin does Sim better but I noticed simcraft does not use BTE without greenskin during mantle buff although it would provide more dps doing so in single target scenarios. Taking this into account they should be closer than the sim makes them appear.Emboskarr10 Apr 11
Apr 11 Sin vs Outlaw So I need a little help...I've been leveling a rogue recently and I love the rogue, the issue I am having is I like playing assassination..But it feels really slow. I like a bit more activity and Outlaw feels a bit faster...Is there a way to make assassination feel more active or is it just a slower playstyle? The only other thing I notice is my output in both AOE and single target is higher in outlaw then assassination. (though I am leveling so I know this could change by the time im geared and doing raids)Onihealz6 Apr 11
Apr 11 Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs How does this legendary change my rotation? Should I be using BtE every time it's off of cooldown, or only when my Quickdraw/Blunderbuss proc is up? thanks papa bless I love youKendea4 Apr 11
Apr 11 sub rogue pve 7.2? so im sitting at around 876 ilvl and just wanted to know how 900+ sub rogues are doing rn bc all i see are sin and outlaw. im pulling like 400k single target and my aoe feels kinda soft (compared to my survival hunter of the same ilvl). nightblade all targets and spam shurkian storm in shadow dance using evisc on kill target? i also dont have the boots or mantle yet which to my understanding make up a big difference (confirm?). anyways if anyone can give their 2 cents that would be sweet.Foxc2 Apr 11
Apr 11 Assassination - Haste gear It's seems like a lot of gear is haste heavy. I'm not a raider by any means just an LFR hero and WQ monger. Is there a reason why haste is so prevalent (at least in my rng luck) in most gear? Is there any reason other than set pieces to keep any haste gear at all? Thanks in advance,Renamedlol9 Apr 11
Apr 11 How do you outlaw PvP? So I am a warrior, who wanted to try a warrior that could stealth as an alt, also pirates instructions not clear, I die way to fast and do no damage Can any experienced outlaw PvPers tell me if it gets better with better ilvl and artifact traits?Azzînoth17 Apr 11
Apr 11 Deathmantle set. This set.. is the most iconic set for rogues. I wonder if it would ever be possible to see it revamped or retextured.Funeraltune13 Apr 11
Apr 11 Low damage on Sub Rogue Hey guys, I've been playing Sub ever since the start of Legion and I think i got the hang of it really well so far and I'm confident with the execution of my rotation. I just seem to do low damage in raids. I average on about 250-300K DPS and it results in me getting kicked. With my current ilvl i should be doing way more, right? I could really use some tips... I don't use any potions and buffs other than food but I don't think that makes that much of a difference Thanks!Kizbo8 Apr 11
Apr 11 Poor Haste stats in Legion Ok. Why is it that all the armor I am getting in Legion (pve play) keeps dropping my haste? It's down to less than 8%. I need more haste!!!!Fluphi2 Apr 11
Apr 10 FIX TAB TARGET This is a very simple request. Please fix tab target. I know back in the day tab= closest target, not so much anymore......Vernick16 Apr 10
Apr 10 Best PVE spec? Thinking of a rouge for an alt, whats the top dps specs right now? or are they pretty even?Zrocker7 Apr 10
Apr 10 Cut to the Chase bugged Anyone else having this issue? I'ts not doing anything for me. I'm still crawling along trying to chase after frost mages that are backpedalling away from me but still in melee range.Ohgodspïders2 Apr 10