Oct 5 Prot Paladin's in World PvP I hear a lot of people say that they really don't like World PvP as a Prot Paladin as the low healthbars make them feel very squishy... I feel very comfortable sitting at 15m. Image related. Oct 5
Oct 5 ret pali- T20 or higher ilvl ? my T20 four pieces are in the range of 890-900 ilvl but my new ilvl items are about 910. should i stay with T20 or move on?Agios7 Oct 5
Oct 5 [H] Esprit 7/9M LF H Pal (Multi National) Hi Friends, Esprit~Thaurissan is a Casual +8 GMT Singapore based Guild that is looking for the below mentioned classes to enhance our Mythic Raid team for Tomb of Sargeras. We are currently 7/9M and achieved 3 out of 3 Cutting Edges! If you are one of the below classes , we highly encourage you to apply and join the very welcoming and friendly team. We raid Wed Thurs Sun Mon - 830pm SG time and we are looking for the below main classes: Holy Pally Arm Warrior Boomkin Rogues All other classes and casuals welcome to apply. Add me on bnet @ pewpewpew#1884Ketupaat0 Oct 5
Oct 5 I hate the Paladin Class Mount. They suck for Tauren Sun Walkers.Taurotragus60 Oct 5
Oct 5 Not Enough Magic Defense Paladins are taking too much magic damage. Our mitigation, which is three technically, but two majors, take too long. Shield of the Righteous really doesn't do much. Shield of the Righteous, stacked with Eye of Tyr barley does anything. We need more magic defense. Easy conclusion, no more needing to talk about this one.Trollsniffer5 Oct 5
Oct 5 Rate my stuff I recently been building up my tank spec. about two weeks ago Tried TOS Normal and was dyeing way too easy. So I set out to improve my gear and build. Tonight we run again and did a lot better but the healers say I am still a bit squishy. I like to hear some constructive thoughts if anyone has any on what I've got right and what could be better. I have a few more Legendaries to choose from Chain of Thrayn , and Heathcliff's Immortality, ThanksKi0 Oct 5
Oct 4 Main healing spell? is it LOTM or FoL in pvp ? and raiding ?Epikpro4 Oct 4
Oct 4 Ret or Arms, Your thoughts? I have my own opinions on them both but before I pick I want some info from ret players. How do you feel about these two specs? Why do you play ret instead of arms? Do you think arms is better than ret? If you could change your character to arms and keep achievements/gear etc would you?Dithus22 Oct 4
Oct 4 Holy paladins "rebuke"....? ill start off by saying blizzard has done a good job on the holy paladin class. They gave use a badass 2 handed hammer which also gives us 30% more armor They gave us abilities such as crusader strike, consecration, crusaders might "talented" They gave us a mastery that allows us to increase our healing when we are close to our allies. and when I say close I mean dear god you need to be within hand holding distance, our auras also apply to this. Hell they even let me keep my taunt. So why take rebuke away? Because healers shouldn't have one? "Glares at resto shammy" At least let me have the choice to pick it as a talent in one the trees, or make it a thirty second cooldown.Ràh12 Oct 4
Oct 4 By Divine Steed has a 5 min CD I warped into a random 5 man and my Divine Steed had a 5 minute CD. Anyone have this issue?Macnessa4 Oct 4
Oct 4 Please Help I need some help... resources mostly... my guild is starting to get further into Mythic ToS and are pushing hard for everyone to use WeakAura's. I havent ever really used it so I dont know of trustworthy sites to find WA for Ret/Holy. If any of you could help point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated. *When I Google for them I get a bunch in German and other EU languages except english. Thank you all in Advance. :DNedron4 Oct 4
Oct 4 Beacon of Light This little ability right here has been the cause of some confusion in pvp In Arenas/BGs when do i use it? I take it i shouldn't nust leave it on one target for the whole match but how often do I switch it around? It really bugs me.Daerowyn2 Oct 4
Oct 3 Why are some rets on WCL doing 2x damage? I was just checking around warcraft logs to compare myself to other paladins (mainly because I've been doing poorly on goroth in general) and I started noticing logs like this: What is this? Look at the maximum crits of all of his abilities. How is he hitting 7.3 mil templar's verdicts? Even with the legendary cape I don't see how this is possible. Looking at his other abilities is also very confusing. Things like 3.3 mil judgements and 6.9 mil BoJs. I'm just at a loss for all of the different logs like this. Even the retribution buff wouldn't bring your maximum hits even close to these. Comparing my own maximum crits, calculating for the 15% legendary cloak buff, my own templar's verdicts are only critting for around 3.3 mil, so it's around double damage. There are a few massive outlier logs just like the one I linked about on specifically goroth. Other well known and generally amazing players that always log really well are somehow very far below these outlier logs. While the person in this outlined log did 2.1m dps over 2 minutes 21 seconds, other extremely good players are only doing around 1.4-1.6m. Just wanted to know why nobody is talking about this, and if it is a known exploit I apologize for being clueless about it.Beaktrots22 Oct 3
Oct 3 Corrupted Ashbringer Trying to get the corrupted ashbringer appearance here, and it's time consuming and boring as hell. What is with the having to kill a slime rare that spawns once every (allegedly) 30 hours or so? What do they want me to do, just sit in EPL, unable to do any battlegrounds, dungeons, not leave for quests or anything at all. Been spending the better part of my playtime here for two days and between work and other responsibilities it looks like I'm going to have to be incredibly lucky to catch this spawn at all. Meanwhile, 20 minutes into 110 my holy one dropped off a random demon at felblaze ingress, BM hunters just just buy theirs from a vendor, mages get theirs from random nighthold trash, why did they make this one so stupidly convoluted?Reapsterz22 Oct 3
Oct 3 ret Can someone please tell me stats for ret pallyHollyymolly2 Oct 3
Oct 3 Holy paladin I'm going to make a holy paladin, any tips?Gronak9 Oct 3
Oct 3 Which Legendary to Use for Mythic + Tried looking online to figure out which one is better, figured it would be easier to get peoples opinions. So I am a protection paladin, I have Prydaz, Xavarics Magnum Opus, Chain of Thrayn, and Tyelca, Ferren Marcus's Stature. Which two would be better to use for mythic +, I'm trying to go for more survivability than dps. This is my Paladin.Sidney4 Oct 3
Oct 3 Best old content speed farm spec/talents? Hey all, Just curious, what do you guys run when speedrunning old raids, dungeons, etc. I'm using Ret with Final Verdict, Zeal, Divine Hammer, and Cavalier... I'm pretty sure that's the optimal setup, but someone may know something I don't. RIP Prot Consecration that followed you....Toomanyprocs2 Oct 3
Oct 3 Keep adding artifact power after concordance? Once I have concordance of the lightfall, It seems like all I can do is keep adding more of them, for ever increasing billions of artifact power. Are the additional levels "worth it" in that they are really beneficial (it looks like more intelligence gained with each level in certain scenarios), or is the consensus at that point you probably just want to put the artifact power into another artifact (prot or ret) that you might use? Thanks!Pud6 Oct 3
Oct 2 How do I improve parses for holy? My guild is having trouble downing Heroic Kil'Jaeden, and I'm always dead last in healing. I was wondering if anyone who raids as holy has some tips on how I can improve my parses and my healing? It just seems terrible compared to everyone else, but I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. It's been a long time since I've actually raided and a lot has changed. Could someone look at these parses for my guild on Warcraft Logs and peek at me and see if I could get some tips on what to do in order to improve my heals? Any feedback is appreciated. You can find me on every Thursday and Friday (with the exception of last Thursday, Sept 28. I was sick). Monday is regular raid with alts. Thurs and Fri are heroic. Oct 2
Oct 2 i attack to the monsters See big videos fighting between mage or paladin with monsters Oct 2
Oct 2 Struggling Hpally M+ I swap back and forth very often between prot and holy as the demands of my groups change. Other than not having a healing trinket, which I am obviously trying to work on, is there something glaring that I can change? I've been told so many different talent set ups that I don't even know what I really should be taking at this point. Is it my stats? It seems like prot and holy want vastly different things...can I fulfill both roles? I try my best to stay in the melee clump. Thank you for your time! :)Lunaarys8 Oct 2
Oct 2 Healing in pvp So I tried doing some BGs as Holy spec today, I spend pretty much the whole time being CCed or dead. I got no mobility or and the heals seem to suck compared to dot and aoe healers... if I can manage to do something I am almost happy.. Am I missing something?Raulland9 Oct 2
Oct 2 Paladin tanks 20% less max hp than others No idea why blizz thought this was a good idea. At this point paladin really doesn't need to be handicapped by something like this. Something that wouldn't bother me at all on my DK like Helya's barrage and Fallen Avatar's Rupture reality completely one shot me on my paladin because I wasn't paying attention. It feels like paladin there is no margin for error.Donnalto52 Oct 2
Oct 2 My Damage seems bad, help pls I have had this Paladin a good long while. I decided to do some work on him since my main, a Blood DK was sitting solidly, gear-wise. Welp, I feel like my dps is low. Im sitting around 450-500k in M+. Im 910 and probably poorly itemized. But my 930 DK does nearly double my DPS. I dropped Seraphim cause I dont have room for it mostly cause Im running +10 Mythic and stuff figured I needed those Shields for DR. Am I doing it wrong? Edit: Sorry my Armory hasnt updated. Im not wearing this gear.Lionfury2 Oct 2
Oct 2 Holy Pally Bug? I'm wondering if this would be classified as a bug or not. When holy spec'd and running Crusader's Might in pvp, as long as Holy Shock/Light of Dawn is on cd and close to being refreshed, you can eat a melee interrupt, and use crusader strike to reduce the cooldown on Holy Shock to cast it while still under the interrupted status. Been eating interrupts on purpose to draw them out so I can CS>Holy Shock/Light of Dawn even while interrupted cause I suck at juking, but it just occurred to me I might be abusing a bug.Vaerume0 Oct 2
Oct 1 arenas vs casters Good evening everyone! I was wondering which talents you personally can't go without when facing a team with 2 casters?Eldry4 Oct 1
Oct 1 End of the risen threat?!? I jumped into this scenario and well I know it's been said before it's an absolute nightmare.. now after about ten attempts I've made it to the last phase and I simply cannot get through it Erdris is an !@# who decides to jump right after he ends ignite soul and it just one shots me I'm running item level 904 and I have no set pieces I was told this was made easier with better gear and I wanted to know if this was true I also wanted to know how you guys handled the phase before erdris because that also is a pain my $%^.. after I loose avenging wrath healing the adds is near impossible and I barely make it through that phase.Ràh3 Oct 1
Oct 1 Oathseeker transmong suggestion for dwarves Hey looking for anyone that hates the Oathseeker clipping through floor issue on their dwarf and found a great transmog for it. Its one of the worst oversights in the artifacts but I will gladly not complain about it as the other skins for MH are incredible....if I can get them.Caladanbrood4 Oct 1
Oct 1 Why can't we make Undead Paladins? I have wondered this since Wotlk when I first saw Undead Crusaders in Icecrown. This idea again popped into my head when I was playing a low level alt in Eastern Plaguelands and came across an Undead Paladin of the Scarlet Crusade. The NPC has several class spells such as Hammer of Wrath, Divine Storm, and even has Retribution Aura. The NPC mentioned above is Scarlet Commander Marjhan. I know the old "undead paladins make no sense" argument, but I mean there a several instances of blizzard twisting that rule. I will also mention that Holy Undead Priests do exist as playable in game. If that makes sense then so should Undead Paladins.Prudelic42 Oct 1
Oct 1 My Ret Mage Tower Advice Well, I finally did it. I broke my Ashbringer. Maybe I am a bit overgeared compared to a lot of the people who did this way back in April and May, but I came darn close back then as well and might have been able to get it with less gear if my strategy had been better and I'd been more calm. With all that in mind, I thought I'd share what I chose to do and why it helped me in the long run on this fight, so I can help some who haven't secured this fight yet. 1) Talents +Final Verdict - the simplest and best dps choice in my opinion. +The Fires of Justice - Getting cheaper spenders is great here, especially if you need to use Justicar's Vengeance for healing in a squeeze. +Repentance - This is mandatory for Sigryn for most of the fight. +Blade of Wrath - Divine Hammer may be good for cleaving, but breaking Sigryn out of her CC early is enough to ruin everything. Don't risk it. +Justicar's Vengeance - This fight is ultimately about survival, and JV can help you get health back quickly, especially if you have someone stunned (primarily Jarl) for the extra 100% damage and healing. +Cavalier - Let's face it. Ret pallies are slow. And if you want to get to those runes fast enough, this is nearly mandatory sometimes. +Crusade - The damage this gives you during your CD is great, and the added haste can give you quick Flash of Lights if you need more health back quickly. That said, Divine Purpose procs used on JV can heal you as well, and provide decent dps overall. But Crusade as a CD is so powerful. 2) Legendaries Overall, this fight is a marathon, and your health is the only thing that matters in the long run. DPS can make the fight quicker overall, thus making things easier because less attacks will come your way in the long run, but you cannot ignore the mechanics at all. That said, things that increase your speed and survival are key. Prydaz - I cannot recommend this necklace enough. If I had used this thing earlier, I would have been done a long time ago. The extra bubble it gives you every 30 seconds mitigates most of the unavoidable damage you will take, which are white damage and Shadow Bolts. This means you have more health for nasty mechanics, and sometimes enough to even survive a Val'kyr rush if you have enough Stamina. Less healing means more time dealing with mechanics and less panicking. Aggramar's/Sephuz's - Mobility is key here. Sephuz's little sprint is trickier to time right, but usually seems to happen right when you need it to. The boots are a fantastic passive movement speed that will usually carry you to safety without having to use Divine Steed. Either one of these and Prydaz are my highest recommendation. Soul of the Highlord - Divine Purpose and Crusade? More damage and more health if you make sure to use JV frequently with the Divine Purpose Procs. This is another great legendary for the fight. Aegisjalmur - The bracers of "cool, I'm not dead!" These can save your butt, but you better be quick to Lay on Hands or heal, because death is still coming if you aren't careful. Rethu's Courage - Hey, even the crafted one is good to help you stay alive! That 2% heal every 3 seconds, while not as good as Prydaz, can help you stay afloat in the long run. And best of all, this one isn't RNG to get. If you're strapped for legendaries, and having trouble living, this is a good start. All DPS legendaries are good as well, but this is about survival first and foremost. 3) General strategy -Get all your buffs, food, flasks, etc. Save drums for 50% when breaking the shield on the caster is your top priority and you need to end the fight fast. - Set up a macro for Sigryn to make your life easier. /cast [target=focus] Repentance Put this on your bar somewhere easy to hit in a pinch and set Sigryn as your focus. When Sigryn yells "My father's Blood flows through me!" Hit this button. This should Repentance her no problem and lock her down for a while. - Only repentance Sigryn when she is about to be empowered. I can't stress this enough. If you overindulge on Repentance, she will become Immune. And then you will die. Don't break her out early, either, because her not attacking and not putting puddles out will save your health bar immensely. - That said, after you hit phase 2, where Val'kyr and the shield are the only mechanics, Sigryn's melee and puddles can do some real damage. You can choose to Repentance her here every now and then to keep yourself alive if your health is dipping low. You don't want to be healing during this phase manually, because the clock is ticking. - "The Drekarjar Never Yeild!" When Jarl wants to do his little cyclone here, just slap him with your stun. Problem solved. If it's still on CD, just be sure not to get sucked in and keep your eyes out for Val'kyrs. -When dealing with Jarl's empowerment, Hand of Hiderance him first and drag the others away while you wait for him to close in. When he is upon you, stun him. By this time, he should be out of his enrage and you can safely stand near him. - Single Target the caster's shield. Divine Storm is not nearly as effective as Templar's for tearing down the shield in time. - ALWAYS watch Val'kyr placement. If they sneak up on you, it's game over. And make sure to get well into the middle of their clearance spot, because their hitboxes can be deceptively wide. - Runes are your top priority, always. There will be 1-2 moments (more if you have less gear) where Val'kyr and runes overlap, and this may be where you have to pop Divine Shield if placement is bad. But aside from that, even if it means waiting an extra second to repentance Sigryn, get the runes asap. - Remain calm. If you find yourself stressed, stop. You will make more mistakes if you are panicking, and you don't focus as well if you are angry. Come back with a clear head and try again later. -Mechanics > DPS. Yes, more gear and more DPS makes the fight easier, but mechanics are always going to be the most important part of this fight. If you're doing 2 million dps and die at 30%, you still lose. Even if you have to slow your DPS down at any point besides the shield phase to survive, do it. If anyone has any other tips they'd like to add to this, feel free to comment below. Good luck to anyone still trying this challenge. It's hard, but you can get through it if you practice!Karruum11 Oct 1
Oct 1 Nelf Paladins? So I've been curious. Night elf Paladins is it gonna become a thing? I mean the Paladin order hall has a priest going paladin why cant they do the same thing or just make them 'Moonwalkers' from what everyone I happen to know and have asked.. I'm probably gonna get a lot of strange answers.Renllon4 Oct 1
Oct 1 Ret Rotation? I'm a noob at this class as I've never played it before. I get the overall idea of my spells for questing and stuff but is there a specific rotation I should be doing in reference for later on when I raid and do dungeons? I've looked up the info on Icy Veins but I heard that's not 100 percent accurate. Any help would be a appreciated.Erikinax3 Oct 1
Oct 1 Avenging Crusader Nerf's overshot their goal. Recently tried my old Hpal again to get a feeling for how Avenging Crusader feels after it got nerfed to shreds and it pretty much confirmed my fears. Mainly due to the cooldown reduction being nerfed from 50% to 30% it feels lackluster. You have to use fillers to not waste your globals in between and the overall healing output is not really competitive anymore. I do understand that the ability, in the right hands, caused too much Healing Output after 7.2.5. But the nerf rendered this ability a gimmick which is not viable in any competitive pvp setting anymore. Im not saying it has to be restored to its old power to be viable, but it needs to be altered on one of its ends. As of now we have: 25 sec. duration (was 30 sec. before) 1min. CD 30% dmg increase (was 50% before, then 40% now only 30%.) 30% cooldown reduction on Judgment/Crusader Strike (was 50% before.) 200% of dmg done converts into Healing (never touched by Blizz) I feel like an HPal shouldnt turn into a killing machine so i can stand behind the nerf to the dmg increase. The 30% CD reduction instead of 50% though makes the rotation during wings feel clunky. I highly recommend changing this back to 50% as the rotation felt a lot more fun before the change. If this (for whatever reason) is unwanted by Blizzard, then theres only one thing left: The amount of healing that gets generated through damage. There needs to be something done about this ability to make it just as viable as Blessed Hands. Its really sad that Holinkas Team seems to be unable to balance the Talent Choices decently even though now they got all the tools at hand they need to do so. Instead this ability now ended up in oblivion.Cruzqt3 Oct 1
Sep 30 Holy Paladin: I suck, send help pls So I started playing wow just like 3 weeks ago, with just like a bit over a day of actual playtime (/played) with my paladin. I've been doing ToS lately to try and get a hang of healing and the boss mechanics (finished LFR and Norm), however, I feel bad at times that other healers do way more HPS -- or just plain healing output for that matter -- than me who are even lower iLvl than me and doesn't have legendaries yet. Not to mention, I won't last more than two minutes of healing intense raid damage before OOM'ing. I know my gear right now is terrible (hoping to work on it by doing H TOS) but I really think I could be putting out more heals than what I can do now. Whenever Raid damage occurs, I usually just use Aura Mastery (for Aura of Mercy) + Light of Dawn + Tyr's Deliverance/Holy Avenger. I also put Beacons on the Tanks and FoL those that are damaged. I also try to keep Judgement of Light on cd. Yet, I still get pretty low HPS and OOM so fast. Would love any suggestions/insights/comments that can help me improve my gameplay. I'm very new to the game so there are still a lot of things I can learn. P.S. I played wrath before tho xDXenorion18 Sep 30
Sep 30 Prot Healing PVP Nerf Ok, I know im late on the changes. However, is it just me or are there any other prot paladins out there that like to world pvp and feel like the huge nerf to HOP was not called for. Yes, they should have nerfed it some as it was semi op healing for 50-60% of missing HP with the right legos and short cds but, to nerf it to do 10% of missing health in pvp is a bit much. I see all the other tank classes (not monks) be able to self heal like crazy! There is a prot warrior that comes to Goldshire and WPVP every night and can 1v6-7 920+ toons and never dip past 50% w/o using CDS with the bracers. DKs and DH tanks also have crazy heals in WPVP as well as DH having HUGE BURST. I know there are a lot of people that like WPVP. What are your thoughts?Holyrack5 Sep 30
Sep 30 How are ret pallies in PvE? So I've recently come back to WoW after a short hiatus, and I'm thinking of playing my ret paladin again because I used to love playing him. I was wondering how well they do in PvE compared to other classes in terms of dps. I've heard mixed things from different people, but most make it seem like they're not great this patch. I'm just looking to pve, not pvp. Thanks in advance!Tytherious20 Sep 30
Sep 30 Protection or Holy? I am trying to decide whether to make a Draenei Prot Pally or a Dwarf HPal. I find them both fun, and while I get that I can, and will, play both specs I don't know what my main spec should be and it will effect which race I choose (because of look)Koadhiro4 Sep 30
Sep 29 Topless tower Is it effected by the sabctified wrath talent ?Parmigiana1 Sep 29
Sep 29 Holy Paladin and What That Means I've seen myself as a burst healer that could bring someone on the brink of death to 90% health in 3 seconds, while keeping the tanky-pies healthy. Not that this has or hasn't changed changed, or I'm the most hardcore raider, but this is more of a discussion piece. How do YOU, my fellow Holydins, see yourselves?Couraged9 Sep 29
Sep 29 Aegisjalmur, the Armguards of Awe Does it work in BGs? I have read conflicting reportsAgincourt7 Sep 29
Sep 28 Ret Trinket questions So I recently aquired mythic Spectre of Betrayal and it has a 1.5 minute cooldown. Now, I know trinkets will gain the most if used after Crusade has been cast but this raises a question. Let's say we have a boss fight which is 6 minutes long. You would be able to use Spectre a total of 4 times within that fight on it's own or use it 3 times with crusade active. Which would yield more DPS? Is it marginal?Thatsmybad1 Sep 28
Sep 28 Maraad's Interaction w/ Second Sunrise? So to sum it up, if you cast LoD and hit 5 targets, but Second sunrise makes your LoD proc again, and you hit less than 5 targets, Maraad's shows stacks ONLY for your second LoD. With the amount of movement that is in Tomb, and I'm sure will be in Antorus, this has to be broken. I've tested it numerous times and I know it happens. My main question is this intended, or is this broken?Herukaern1 Sep 28
Sep 28 How many legendaries.. .. can a pally equip?Cherrÿbomb5 Sep 28
Sep 27 Maraad's Dying Breath Legendary... why?? Legendary Holy Paladin item: - Back - Maraad's Dying Breath - I'm i wrong to think that - Back- Drape of Shame (10% increase healing on critical strikes) Is better than Maraad's Dying Breath. Since Holy Paladins still primarily stack crit?Jamaz30 Sep 27
Sep 27 Ret Mythic+? Hello so i was looking to try Ret in mythic+. Normally i go in as holy on the paladin and i play Unholy on my DK. But I was wondering how Ret is in Mythic+. I know the basic rotation and stats and all that jazz. But how well do Rets perform in Mythic+? Both in Tyrannical and Fortified weeks! Thanks for the help!Malakhor7 Sep 27
Sep 27 Holy Questing Hey all, currently I've really been enjoying Holy in almost all content... Except Argus. I find it really painful to quest through Argus due to limited AoE and the enormous amount of mobs here. I can never seem to fight just one. Are any of you questing as Holy? How are you talented? My gear is around 900 so that may have something to do with it as well. Any advice would be appreciated. I don't want to have to swap to Ret to quest (I really don't enjoy it's playstyle) and Id prefer to stay off prot. I want to be able to stay on one spec for all content. ...if thats possible. It screws up my muscle memory hopping back and forth between quests and Q's.Agis7 Sep 27
Sep 27 Is Divine Hammer always the best talent? at level 60? I see a lot of Ret pally taking it.Feelzbrah3 Sep 27
Sep 27 Holy Paladin or Resto Shaman (PvE)? So, I was looking for a healer that is good at saving people, a spot healer. I wanted a class that can bring people from almost dead to full. Both HPal, because its their schtick, and Resto Shaman, because of their mastery, were recommend to me and I don't really know which to go with.Droe3 Sep 27
Sep 27 Help with new Ret So I main unholy dk, but I have been interested in a new alt, or possibly new main, so I started to play this guy. I brought him to a heroic run with our sister guild, and I was just wondering if I could maybe get some help with logs? It seems like a pretty straightforward class, and I was able to do decent for my ilvl, but was just trying to up my numbers however I can, so I'm not a burden on my guild If I do end up rerolling, thanks! Sep 27