Class Development

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Jan 19 Welcome. Please Read! Welcome to the Class Development forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss the ongoing development of Class Design in Legion with your fellow World of Warcraft players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct ( and guidelines ( before posting. Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion, demote unhelpful comments, and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) and a "thumbs down" (Dislike) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. Clicking the "thumbs down" icon will expand a drop-down menu which will include "Dislike," "Trolling, "Spam" and "Report" options. "Dislike" will rate the post down. If enough people dislike a post, it will be darkened, and with a lot of dislikes it will be hidden completely. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. Have fun posting on these forums, and good luck with your adventures in Azeroth and the Broken Isles!Lore0 Jan 19
1h Please consider buffing WW again Windwalker monk still need dps buff. I'm normally not the type of person to make comments like this, but it is true. I love my class and I love the way all three specs play. But over all Windwalker still need about a 5-10% sustained dps increase. I could give logs but I wont waste time right now I just simply say that I have to work hard to even out dps a tank spec druid at times, in his tank-dps gear. Sure I still feel I can be a god at aoe and cleave, and my hero/ burst dps is great.. but again I feel like I'm working 5 times harder then the next dps with a complex rotation.. all be it fun it yields little reward in long single target fights.Nuell9 1h
1h Ayala's - Nerf the Damage, not the Proc Rate We all get that Ayala's was too strong and needed to be nerfed. That's fine. Something is legit too OP, it should be nerfed. However, it's the manner in which Blizzard chose to nerf the ring that is a problem. To explain, another important task (other than DPS) the Ring accomplished was to help with rage management and smooth out the rotation ... Or in other words, make our rotation more fun and feel a less clunky. And it worked. It proc'd often enough and the rotation felt good. However, since the nerf, Arms is back to feeling clunky again and it's frustrating. It feels like we took a giant leap backwards. Blizzard might have addressed the over-tuned numbers, but at the same time they ruined the game play the ring was intended to provide. And the kicker in all this is, it wasn't even necessary. A simple solution to avoid this would have been to simply nerf the damage to execute while the Stone Heart buff is active and leave the proc rate alone. This way, the ring is still able to help fill out the rotation and help manage rage, but the numbers wouldn't be OP. TL;DR When it comes to balancing spells, abilities and/or gear ... it shouldn't just be about what the numbers say. Game play is just as important ... And before a nerf is implemented, the consequnces to game play should ALWAYS be considered. Obviously this didn't happen and I really hope Blizzard will take a second look and consider returning the proc rate back to where it was in favor of nerfing the damage to a Stone-Heart buffed Execute. Does anyone else disagree?Cullin6 1h
1h The State of Havoc - 7.2.5 State of Havoc Demon Hunters Who am I? Hi everyone. It’s Zarania here. For anyone who doesn’t know me, I’m one of the maintainers of the Demon Hunter SimC module and am one of the people who writes the DH theorycraft. I like to think that I present thought out information and this post will hopefully demonstrate that. The main focus of this is going to be Mythic Raiding - I do not have any experience in PvP for this expansion and in M+ Demon Hunters seem mostly “fine” and the issues here apply there as well. Single Target - We’re ok M Goroth - H Goroth - M Maiden (smallish sample size) - H Maiden - M Avatar - 0 DH kills with public logs ( H Avatar - So, on pure single target fights we’re doing fine. Not great, but fine. On Maiden where it lines up well with our CDs we’re in the top 3 - not really a surprise since our CDs have always been great. On Goroth where there’s no extra damage phase we are upper middle of the pack, which is fine if that’s where we’re supposed to be tuned. However, given the concerns below about our cleave and AoE I question if this is where we should be ST. Avatar is a bad melee fight in general, though due to the other classes being able to maintain a bit more uptime due to things like AMS, Cloak, and leap into charge (FR -> VR has a shared CD so we can’t immediately rush out then VR back) and our HIGH reliance on boss uptime we suffer greatly here, though that comes with being melee to some extent. Sustained AoE - Extremely low M Sass - H Sass - M Host - We started the xpac with extremely good sustained aoe from Momentum + Fel Barrage triggering from our AoE repeatedly, along with TG + Bloodlet. All of that has been nerfed to the ground and the once kings of AoE are now near the bottom. During the AMA they said that Demon Hunter isn’t a “sustained aoe class” but that we’re a burst aoe class. We’ll cover that below, but our sustained AoE is EXTREMELY low. Burst AoE - Not as good as advertised M Harj - H Harj - Heroic Harjatan is more of a ST fight due to the adds dying so quickly - that’s why balance also is so low here compared to where they are on mythic. So, looking at mythic our burst AoE is extremely low as well. Looking at one of the BEST case scenarios here - I use my Nemesis on the boss (Harjatan is a giant for some reason so we can’t cheese the buff there), Chaos Blades, Meta, and a Sephuz proc. I also have up my Umbral Moonglaive trinket, as does Panzar here which inflates both our aoe. log link if you want to investigate. In the 20-31 second time period of the first set of adds, I do 50.38m damage and Panzar does 64.81. Of that, I did 32.47m to Harjatan to Panzar’s 26.55m. This means that I did 17.91m to adds to Panzar’s 38.26m. One of our rets Shouldice did 18.55m, without having up Crusade in that window, nor was he using the legendary chest DESPITE me using an aoe trinket, having up 2 CDs AND and AoE CD. Our moonkin were only slightly behind as well, again with no CDs. So if we are supposed to be a burst AoE class, why is our burst AoE so low? T19 - Good initial set In general initial tier sets are pretty passive and simple. People are learning everything that changed in the expansion and giving a basic set is expected. The tier 19 set follows that to the T - give some more fury, make our best move crit more. Over time as Chaos Strike has become a better and better button to hit due to Chaotic Onslaught, more fury generation from haste, more points in Critical Chaos, and more weapon ilvl the tier 19 bonus remains very powerful - so much so that people are finding it difficult to replace and see a reasonable gain. Sure, people are starting to drop it for mythic t20 gear but that's mainly because the ilvl is 25+ higher per slot - not because we're excited to get the new bonus.Zyrainia78 1h
2h Oh look, Destro is the worst lock spec again! You mean laterally changing how we generate shards didn't actually fix our piss poor scaling or our inability to adapt to a variety of encounter types because our kit offers nothing past hardcasting CB's for damage?!?! That's what.. 4 raids in a row now?!!?! Who saw that coming?!?! IMHO; Let CDF generate bits Increase ROF radius and make its damage distribute 2~s faster **************MAKE SHADOWBURN NOT GARBAGE. Viable Shadowburn (this does NOT mean nerf BD. if anything, it mean make it baseline so we can feel comfortable to take Shadowburn) gives us a hugely beneficial snap cleave option and allows us to better handle add situations where we simply cannot depend on casting a longass, 2 shard chaos bolt and having it land to do damage ****** Increase base SH duration. Our CB casts are too slow to have that little of a baseline CD. we cannot fit enough of our rotation into SH. *************Without T19 2pc, Havoc duration is not long enough to do adequate cleave. Increase duration to allow for 1-2 more CB casts. lower CD of WH further. Our 2T cleave is pretty !@#$ing average tbh, despite it being our "niche" and it's crazy to me that we can no longer have Havoc up for the majority of SH. what is the point of being the cleave spec if we can't cleave properly************* LOTF should just be a 3min CD. Specs have way bigger burst opportunity than that in shorter CDs than 10m ********Make Immolate both last longer, do more UPFRONT damage, and do more overall damage. Conflag, reduced CD and more damage. We cannot scale properly without better DoT/Instant damage. Hardcasting all of our big damage means that those hardcasted spells need to be REALLY, REALLY strong to scale properly.. and that won't happen.********** Make GSac not only give os a god damn !@#$ing interrupt, but have it give us a % damage increase instead of random splash damage that sucks. As for scaling, we need a few things to make us futureproof: ********1. Our mastery is probably just not enough at this point. We fall off so hard with iLvl it's crazy. Our tier, which maximizes Mastery on all of our Chaos Bolts, is such a pitiful DPS boost. That's a testament to how weak it is. 2. Our artifact needs to modify our main spells better. Increased rift damage perhaps, make cry havoc actually do something useful, give us higher % increases on conflag/immo damage, etc. 3. Stop putting tier bonuses in the game that work with incinerate. We want tier that modifies what we use in our CD/Havoc windows. !@#$ incinerate.******** /bottomspecforlife /important points in star spam (yes, I know we're still viable but smh we had a week of good parses in heroic only to get the !@#$tiest tier and the %^-*tiest scaling paired with a nerf that based on Heroic data made sense but based on current data should probably be reverted)Dzdz27 2h
3h WW Needs Help (PVE) WW has two major issues right now. First, you need perfect gear to display any reasonable numbers on raid boss fights. That includes: 4 piece tier 20, 2 piece tier 19, and bracers and feet leggos. There is so much wrong with pigeon holing a spec into this specific of gear. Second, the rotation is so friggin punishing. I'm by no means an amazing player, but I am 921 ilvl and parse anywhere from 70-80% on TOS boss fights. I can't put up above 900k average dmg. In order to compete with mages and rogues and everything else, who are always pulling around 1.3-1.7M on bosses fights (while parsing similarly or sometimes 10-15% less) you would need the perfect gear and the perfect rotation. It's just absurd and it's so sad because I've read everything I can on WW, invested a lot of time and energy, but I can't get the right leggos to drop and I can't get the right tier 19 to drop. Please take some time to review us Blizzard. The monk community is really trying hard, and we have wonderful leadership willing to work with you on exploring fixes to this class. WhitcomovichWhitcomovich5 3h
3h OUTLAW Rogue situation 7.2.5 I am currently the 2nd rank outlaw in the US for mythic, 6th world for heroic, 1st world for normal in logs. So I have been an outlaw rogue since I came back to wow in legion. I have enjoyed the combat playstyle, while still being able to parse at a top level in raids when I get lucky. Recently, they made changes that make other options viable, like slice and dice and other talents. These changes to the spec have been fine, and the dps range has lessened as a result. Now the real problem: ITS COMPLETE GARBAGE. THIS SPEC IS A JOKE. Anyone playing this spec is purely playing it for the fun of it, or because they are completely clueless. This spec is so inferior compared to sin and sub, and barely competes on certain single target situations with insane RNG. Outlaw is supposed to be the class that has one of the highest potentials in the game, and blizzard has driven it into the ground in 7.2.5. I have 5 roll pulls where I am doing less dps than our sub rogue throughout the entire 5 roll. Now on top of that, they have thrown out a nerf to the shoulders (yes just 1 second) which slightly impacts outlaw as well. Just what the worst spec in the game needed at the moment, another nerf! I currently have 62 traits in outlaw, with a 961 weapon (all good traits). My sub weapon is 944 with 52 traits and I consistently do more damage on any fight. I have some of the highest outlaw parses in the world, and when compared to all melee I am worse than a middle of the pack sub rogue. Ret pallys got their buff, frost DKs got theirs, can the other joke of a spec finally get its BUFF before all the outlaws quit the game? Tired of this game being about hard swapping specs during expansions, just give a buff to the incredibly bad classes already. It's as if blizzard doesn't even play this game themselves (which is a joke because mythic KJ clearly showed they don't) gg wp method + blizzard, great game!!Grumpeh11 3h
4h Rogue or Mage alt Need some help. I am currently a little bored of my WW, and I'm looking to make an alt. Has anyone played rogue or mage (or preferably both) and just love it? I would enjoy hearing some pros and cons of the two classes. I mainly do Mythic + keys (15-20), heroic level raiding, and some arena. Mucho luvo and thanks for any feedback. I really appreciate it. As a side note, I'm also willing to look at other classes if anyone has like a fantastic reccomendation. Thanks again. LateWhitcomovich1 4h
4h Elemental Discussions - 7.2.5 Part 2 We reached the post cap. Let's continue the madness. I am not baffled anymore. This is a pretty decent nerf to AOE and knockdowns. What you have outlined as double dipping can easily be called symmetry and Lore specifically said you like how Elemental is playing. I suspect blizzard, as any company would, is allocating resources elsewhere and our spec is just getting the short end of the stick. Why you would nerf an under performing class who obviously is not going to scale worth a darn is confusing. A majority of the top elemental shaman are already mastery capped. Our best stat being capped at a low ilvl compared to the expansion timeline warrants an explanation in my opinion. How is better gear going to move us up from dumpster dps if our most useful stat is already capped? Why would you allow earth shock to hit for 900k at full mastery when it doesn't critical strike at 905 ilvl? It is such an obvious design flaw if a class developer was familiar with the class. The fact that we do zero damage on the move is an issue when you also look at our inability to move. On to class fantasy issues. Why is a healing class like shaman the worse passive healer in the game and provides no useful utility? All questions that have been asked in the previous 25 pages of posts. It is almost comical that it was addressed with a nerf to our AOE damage. Come on man. This spec feels like a dog that has been beaten for years and honestly who cares any more. Kick us again while we are down, nerf our aoe, ignore our ST issues, keep the spec in the gutter, and give us zero reasons or communication as to what is going on. At the end of the day it is blizzards game and we just play it. This week is just par for the course for elemental shaman and who really cares anymore.Jumbulaya863 4h
4h Hunter Direction: Moving Forward 8.0 Hey everyone, I want to talk about all three hunter specs and general class design from legion and where we want to see the class move forward to. The goal for this thread is to let blizzard know what our thoughts are on current design, and what we would like to see going into the next expansion (whatever that may be). I'll start the thread off by bringing up my thoughts on pets since they effect all three specs, then move forward talking about each individual spec and what my thoughts are. Pets. Pets need help. I believe blizzard set out to fix pets and make it a personal choice on what pet you bring. The problem is, the old issue of being forced into using a specific pet has been exacerbated. Currently there are 52 pet families. Only 29 of those families have abilities. Two of those families have abilities that are actually detrimental to use, so we effectively have 27 pet families with an ability for combat. That leaves about half of our pets without an ability. A majority of those spells are the same as one another across multiple pet families (not necessarily a bad thing). What this has led to is now hunters feel they must bring either Blood Lust or Battle Rez (with the occasional spirit beast for their heal when the other two are already covered). Because of this, we just see the same pets every time. I shouldn't feel like a jerk within my raid group when I want to bring my wolf who represents my deceased dog, however I do because I know I could be using a pet that does something. There have been several suggestions for solution for fixes for pet families. I personally would like to see a talent system or something similar to how it was in Vanilla, make it so you can choose the ability and let the pets be cosmetic. I'm certain there are other ideas to fix this problem that could also potentially help enhance the experience of playing a hunter. Beast Mastery Personal opinion, out of the three specs Beast Mastery is the best design wise out of the three specs. This isn't because I think Beast Mastery is particularly interesting, I think design wise, it fits the closest towards blizzard's stated class fantasy, and what a hunter has been. This version of BM is very simple and lacks much to manage. This isn't necessarily bad, BM has always been a rather simple spec, though I think it needs polish. Overall, I'm glad blizz is considering making Dire Frenzy the baseline option for next expansion (as per the most recent AMA) and I'm glad it's an option in the first place. With the addition of two charges to dire beast / frenzy, it's actually possible to try and maintain 3 stacks of frenzy and overall makes the spec feel a lot smoother. Hati needs work. She is slow and often unresponsive to commands. She needs some dog training. I'm curious what blizz plans to do with Hati next expansion since she is tied to our artifact weapon. I'm hoping we can keep two pets by either talenting into it, or talenting into one pet. The pet situation is the worst for BM. BM hunters feeling forced into specific pets goes against the very core of this spec. The hunter is supposed to feel a bond between them and the pet, and while I do find CitizenSnips to be a comical pet, I'd love to use my wolf. The attachment isn't there, and that truly hurts this spec. So going forward, I'd love to give BM a bit more to manage, and more variations when it comes to their pets. This is the pet spec after all. Marksman This spec overall just feels so awkward to me now at this point. The mobility it once had has been largely diminished, and the vulnerable mechanic is simply unfun. I believe blizzard, contrary to what they said in an AMA several months back (January I think), is starting to move away from vulnerable. Plenty of hunters were upset after they came up with the "meme" build (talent set up purposefully to try and avoid using vulnerable as much as possible) that blizz added a new trait that focused more on vulnerable. Blizz has since reduced the punishment of missing vulnerable windows on aimed shot, making the spec not quite as punishing when you mess it up. The vulnerable mechanic, in its current state, should not stay in the spec going forward in 8.0. This would be a more acceptable mechanic if the hunter had a way to control vulnerable, as it is it's mostly RNG which does not feel fun. Marksman also suffers from another huge issue, the elephant in the room. With the massive changes to Survival this expansion, blzzard stated they would maintain the old survival playstyle through Marksman talents. Unfortunately, blizzard failed to deliver on this promise. While some of the core abilities are talents within MM, it's in name only.Lazyguide433 4h
5h They need to bring back Repentance Repentance allowed a swift Paladin to incapacitate an enemy and force a trinket which led into a sick Hammer of Justice slam bam jam. Just my thoughts. It was a way to play that made the paladin feel more diverse with what you can do.ßacønløl1 5h
6h Frost Death Knight in 7.3 The next PTR build should have a round of changes aimed at addressing various concerns with Frost. The major issues we're focused on are: The spec is too dominated by Breath of Sindragosa (which has knock-on effects on talent choice throughout the tree). Breath of Sindragosa, when you do use it, can be maintained for far too long. In addition to causing the talent/legendary lock-in around it, it means the demand for continuous time on target is very strict for extended periods of time. The spec has many talents/legendaries that (individually or taken together) flood it with resources. Breath contributes to this by encouraging you to take all of them, but it's also a problem on its own. Talent balance generally has to be reviewed, especially after addressing all of the time. We're trying to limit the scope of the changes in the patch, to address the above without opening up the core rotation for changes. All damage abilities increased by 27% Hungering Rune Weapon (L58) and Glacial Advance (L100) swapped positions Breath of Sindragosa damage increased by 10% We want to preserve the identity of Breath of Sindragosa, including the steady resource drain being the main limiting factor, and the expression of skill in optimizing around that. So in trying to avoid less natural solutions like capping the duration or redesigning how it works, we're trying to limit the talent/legendary synergies that cause huge variance in how long Breath can be maintained. And breaking the Breath of Sindragosa/Hungering Rune Weapon interaction, on its own, goes a very long way toward making Breath's duration more reasonable again. DPS adjustment for the change is being put mostly into the baseline spec rather than into the power of Breath, because it's currently so far ahead of other setups. Murderous Efficiency (L56->L57), Frozen Pulse (L57->L90), and Runic Attenuation (L90->L56) swapped positions Hungering Rune Weapon duration 12s (from 15s) and additionally grants 20% haste Bugfix: Hungering Rune Weapon correctly generates a Rune every 1.5s instead of every 1s Murderous Efficiency chance 50% (from 65%) Horn of Winter cooldown 45s (from 30s) Koltira’s Newfound Will generates 1 Rune (from 2) and now causes Obliterate to deal 10% extra damage Using even a small subset of all of the above effects causes the rotation to be quite flooded. They are all being either weakened in power (with compensation to the baseline spec), or given non-resource-granting effects for part of their value. In addition, the two most egregious offenders (Murderous Efficiency and Horn of Winter) can no longer be taken together. Overall, there should now be a much broader set of talent combinations that produce a good-feeling rotation in which there are resources to do something on most GCDs, but you're still able to spend them down. Including, for example, during Hungering Rune Weapon, which is overly hectic or frustrating right now when you can't spend all of its resources. In addition, the talent rearrangement puts Frozen Pulse on a row with two predominantly AoE talents, which is a better home for it. The Frozen Pulse/Icy Talons ("machinegun") synergy is preserved, but can no longer be taken alongside Runic Attenuation as well. NB: The Hungering Rune Weapon bug may be fixed on live shortly as well, after we test the fix and analyze the impact. Icy Talons bonus 15% (from 10%) Shattering Strikes bonus 60% (from 40%) Freezing Fog effect 20% (from 30%) Obliteration duration 10s (from 8s) Frozen Pulse damage reduced by 39% Minor talent rebalancing to match the above rearrangements and talent changes; numbers are likely to be updated as the rest of the changes settle into place. EDIT: Added Frozen Pulse change which was missed when I copied changes into the post earlier. As with the other changes, this is meant to make Frozen Pulse balanced within its new row, and meant to be accounted for in the overall DPS increase above. Breath can retain its role as a talent that encourages building around it to some degree (and its synergies with things like Runic Attenuation, Koltira's Newfound Will, and Seal of Necrofantasia are preserved). But without the overpowering Hungering Rune Weapon interaction, there is a lot more room for other builds to compete, and we've buffed the spec's baseline damage a great deal to shift the landscape towards all talents being closer together in DPS. As always, we'll continue to examine all of these changes based after people can start to test them on PTR.Sigma312 6h
6h The Great "Tanking Divide", how do we fix it? So tombs been out for a few weeks now and I think its pretty clear. The top 3 tanks(Bears, Brews and Bloods) are MILES ahead of the other three. I mean its not even close. Warriors are actually fairing better than most thought they would in Tomb, but are nowhere near the top 3. Paladins are solid on some of the earlier bosses but their lack of passive defense and HP scaling is really catching up with them on Avatar and KJ. Demon Hunters are still the bastard child of the tanking world, as evidenced by their horrendous lack of representation at the top end. For awhile I thought that DKs, Druids and Monks needed to be brought down a notch - but now I'm thinking that the other three simply need to be brought UP to that level. So instead of talking about how to balance the top end, lets talk about bringing the weaker tanks up a notch. First things first Warriors and Paladins need more HP. I think we can all agree on that. Flat HP or better scaling it, these two need more EHP. Ignore Pain needs to be worked on. Perhaps reworked completely. Maybe buff the absorb amount by a TON, but increase the amount of damage let through to maybe 30%. Paladins are god-mode tanks while their AM is up, but its just not up enough. They just have to many moments where they turn into a wet noodle. Maybe its time we nerf the effectiveness of SotR but increase its uptime dramatically? Demon Hunters...I don't know where to start. They're actually doing better than they were in NH but I think this whole spec needs to be reworked. When your classes primary spender is almost useless and is being dropped almost completely in favor of a pair of talents, you've got some issues. Vengeance lacks an identity to me. Yea its got great mobility but so do Monks and Warriors. I mean all of the other tanks have a "niche". Druids are meat shields, the damage sponges of Legion. Monks lack CDs but can simply laugh at giant attacks that would kill any of the other tanks. Death Knights have ABSURD healing capabilities, and genuinely don't need a healer half-of-the-time. Paladins despite their current issues can completely cheese and ignore certain mechanics, along with bringing fantastic utility. Warriors are fantastic when it comes to any kind of consistent physical damage due to their outstanding blocking capabilities. They have their issues don't get me wrong, but their is a lot of blockable damage in ToS. Demon Hunters...are new and look pretty cool? Anyway, I'm trying to generate some constructive discussion here. I love this game. And I love tanking. Share your thoughts my friends! What do you think of tank balance?Scoobz133 6h
7h 6 bears sitting in a tree K-I-L-L-I-N-G. So Mythic KJ is turning out to be NH all over again. Bliz please look at balancing the other tanks so we can play too.Kryonyx1 7h
8h Immunities in ToS and beyond. A majority of ToS encounters have mechanics which are designed to be soaked as a raid, yet can be countered by throwing 1 player with an immunity in them, and rotating players with short CD immunities through them. This encourages building rosters around having an egregiously high amount of immunity specs for the vast majority of ToS bosses, seriously limiting composition diversity, if your spec does not bring an immunity or is not obscenely overtuned (I am looking at you moonkin/arms) it is immediately less desirable to the majority of raid leaders. 1. How do developers feel about the widespread use of majority or even full immunity comps and the immergent player behavior associated with the strength of immunities in ToS. 2. At what point is an ability or set of abilities (in this case immunities) considered degenerate in their ability to hard counter boss mechanics.Alleycatt45 8h
8h Death Knight movement needs help. Death knights are the worst class in the game when it comes out of combat movement by a large and quantifiable margin. Here I have calculated the mean movements speed across classes save for the demon hunter. Class Min Max Druid 1.33 1.51 Warlock 1.067 1.5 Rogue 1.29 1.44 Shaman 1.31 1.4 Hunter 1.03 1.3 Monk 1.16 1.27 Warrior 1.04 1.13 Priest 1.10 1.13 Paladin 1.067 1.13 Mage 1.12 1.12 D. Knight 1.047 1.047 Now I know it may not seem like a lot but being 5% of running speed slower than the next five slowest classes means you get locked out of at least a third of every encounter when you're in a PUG because everybody moves faster than you. It's enough to kill any fun one might have with the DK. It's a disparity that cannot go unremedied.Commandojack4 8h
8h Backstab and its "class fantasy". TL;DR Backstab's additional damage component is subject to balancing/tuning. This punishes Subtlety Rogues for not being behind their target opposed to being awarded for doing so. Backstab's tooltip in-game Stab the target, causing X Physical damage. Damage increased by 20% when you are behind your target. What it actually is Stab the target, causing X Physical damage. Only 80% effective when you are not behind your target. Getting behind your target is no bonus, by design it's just a means to put yourself on par with everyone else. Suggestion: Remove the "additional" damage component from Backstab, and replace it with a utility component. The changes made to Subtlety in Legion have been mostly well received, and for good reason. The spec has finally evolved into its own unique playstyle and fantasy, which is welcome. However, Subtlety is still far from perfect, and definitely has room for improvement. Subtlety is still plagued by unnecessary hindrances, a few uninventive talent choices, and some minor mechanical issues that definitely need to be (and probably will be) addressed in the future. Backstab’s positional requirement however, is something that I doubt will change without the community’s input. The developers have always been against the idea of changing it, and its always the same reasoning… “class fantasy”. This has been a hot topic for a long time now, and the developers still fail to see the issue with this ability in a PvE setting. While I agree that Backstab makes sense from a thematic/fantasy perspective, it still makes no sense in practice and fails to uphold its thematic purpose as a result. Before I go any further… I wanted to acknowledge the fact that this hindrance is not severe. I’m sure most of us can agree that 20% additional damage to an ability we barely use can be considered negligible, but it still has no reason to exist in a PvE setting, especially when you consider the extra damage is subject to balancing / tuning and is not considered a bonus. The following quote is Blizzard’s response to someone addressing the positional requirements of Backstab (taken from the recent reddit AMA in June). ... Once again, the same response in favor of class fantasy, which is fine… but only if the ability can live up to its fantasy mechanically. Ideally, all melee DPS should be doing damage from behind to prevent our attacks from being parried. This, alongside distance to target, are the only barriers that prevent other melee specs from getting in a position to maximize DPS… Why do Subtlety Rogues have yet another barrier that prevents them from maximizing DPS? This honestly makes no sense, because of this extra, pointless, positional requirement, Subtlety is the worst “dealing damage from behind spec” in the game as a result, despite its fantasy essentially stating the opposite. In every way Backstab's positional requirement is a weakness... a hurdle which suggests Subtlety Rogues do less damage than their competition in front of the boss, but an equal amount of damage than their competition behind the boss. In order for Backstab’s additional damage component to work, in practice, the additional damage it deals would have to be excluded from balancing/tuning (i.e. a damage BONUS). Meaning, Sub Rogues would do slightly more damage than everyone else on single target… I think many of us can agree this is not a healthy solution. Yes, we have Gloomblade, but why should we need to take a talent because we are simply incapable of getting behind our target? SUGGESTION: Remove Backstab’s additional damage component when using it from behind and replace it with a utility component. For example, Backstab will always do full damage, but using it behind your target will snare them, or reduce the effectiveness of healing (much like Mortal Strike and Rising Sun Kick). This would give Subtlety Rogues the same restrictions as the other melee specs in PvE while maintaining the fantasy of giving them an advantage when using it from behind your target in PvP...which is where Backstab should be, in my opinion, most applicable and intended for. And obviously, this would warrant a rework for Gloomblade. Thanks for reading... any thoughts?Feida26 8h
8h Racials - The pool of choice Racials are assigned to a race. Currently I'm sporting an expensive slvtmog that would not look good on my ideal race for horde racials, which would be orc. Why not at the next expansion "unlock" the racial pool somehow at endgame, so we could choose racials from this "magical" pool. This can somehow fit into lore, because the World of Warcraft is based on magic.Artomiss11 8h
9h 7.3 Enhancement Class Discussion Hello, After some very productive discussions with some long-term Enhancement players and I, we've come up with areas of concern that we'd like to address with the community. We all thoroughly enjoy playing this spec and want it to be the best and most viable it could possibly be. The main goal of this feedback is to identify areas we think the spec is currently struggling. We'd like you to focus on the problems instead of any proposed solutions. Feedback in this post has been compiled from: Wordup <Echoes> | 9 Years Played Purge <Addiction> | 12 Years Played Rusahh <Addiction> | 7 Years Played Hekili <MetaCortex> | 4 Years Played Ryethe <Midwinter> | 8 Years Played Gengi <Divergence> | 5 Years Played Bay <Crisp> | 9 Years Played This group maintains the majority of Enhancement Theorycrafting resources currently available to the public. Additional shout-out to the Enhancement MVPs in the Earthshrine Discord for all their feedback and support. We've consolidated our feedback down to identifying things we see as problems. Please see the following posts or if you'd like to save a copy, the google doc located at EU Forum sister post: I understand there's a lot to take in here and we sincerely appreciate any time taken to read our feedback. We'd like to open this discussion up to others to get the ball rolling and hopefully get the community more involved in helping to fix some of these issues. You'll notice we're mostly very happy this go-around! No more Stormbringer complaints, Hooray!!! However, we do feel that these are all critical problems still. Thanks for reading - RusahhRusahh34 9h
9h Fire Mages and ST issue. It not shocking that Fire Mages are having issues with Single Target Damage. With the Ret Paladin ST buffs, It feels like fire mages are getting raw end of the deal. We are going to be the lowest ST spec,which not including frost(DK), with okish AoE. If you are so focus on Fire Mage being the !@#$ty spec for ST that it is, then allow Fire Mages to be the star on AoE fights. Currently, Burst AoE and Cleave are king in T20 unless your padding on Mistress boss. T19 was no different. Personally, I would like to be able to play fire with my heroic group without having some fear of the bench. I am not asking for Fire Mages to be king at both, I just asking to be middle of the pack with ST.Tìm9 9h
9h World PvP Can we get some baseline resilience? This is the first expansion that you cant even duel to practice PvP because Blizzard decided in it's infinite wisdom that players no longer require 85% Player Damage Reduction. The result is people are just 1-shotting each other because no one can withstand the ridic PvE damage. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel with every single thing. We've had resilience since the start of BC over ten years ago. Put it back in, thanks.Baneblood82 9h
9h PvP Needs more Depth There seems to be an opinion bouncing around that the best way to increase pvp participation is by making it easier for new players to get into pvp, and that the best way to accomplish this goal is by reducing complexity so that it doesn't overwhelm new players. I completely disagree. I believe the best way to get new players into pvp is to give them something they can aspire towards, give someone the chance to really show how awesome they are at "X" class. Allow players to acquire personal skill instead of just character power and that the way to do this is actual increasing the complexity of the game. Part I - Being overwhelmed is actually a good thing. When a player is overwhelmed by every ability and mechanic they can focus on they have to select a smaller subset and focus on only that, trying to quickly switch to other subsets when they become necessary. When the environment is sufficiently complex that not even the top level players are capable of focusing on everything at once then being able to read what your opponents are trying to do becomes a valuable skill. Additionally not accurately figuring out what your opponents are focusing on creates a chance for surprise, and this surprise can be consistently reproduced against different (or sometimes even the same) opponents unlike RNG based surprise. This also gives individual players more character, as everyone tends to focus on different aspects at different times. On the other hand when the baseline complexity level gets too low simply preforming the rotation becomes a given. When too many players fall into this category there has to be an element of reaction to rotations to differentiate the players whom are paying attention from those who are not, there has to be something to fail at. The current solution is serious of random procs on each class that ask you to press a button you wouldn't normally press, or wouldn't normally press in that order. This is extremely frustrating from a player point of view, not because it disrupts the rotation, as pvp players we are more than used to disruption. Rather it is frustrating because your ability to preform at any level beyond your opponent is gated by random chance and luck. This creates an artificial fluctuation to your potentially consistent performance, and sometimes even alters the victor in a way neither player can reproduce. You can't outplay bad luck, or the opponents good luck, especially when you are both already playing at the skillcap and waiting on procs. A better way of resolving the reaction problem is to make situationally specific moves that you sub out for general moves at your own discretion, and balance them as such that they only preform better in their given situations. An example, during MoP PvP you could construct an unholy deathknight spec that had death siphon, necrotic strike, and scourge strike all which you could spend your deathrunes on, and none of them featured cooldowns. Death siphon did the least damage but provided you with heals, necrotic strike dealt the most pressure on enemy heals but lacked raw damage, and then scourge strike for when you just need raw damage right now. Depending on the situation I would spend my resources differently, and spending them wrong penalized me with lost potential, a lost kill, or my own death.Tsalera11 9h
10h Survival Hunter woes I feel like Blizzard looks at Survival as some failed experiment that needs to be swept under the rug, and since barely anybody plays the spec, there's nobody to really give good feedback. Well here it is. (Note: I've played solely Surv since it launched on live servers.) Survival is a jumbled together abomination of a spec that has so many disjointed abilities and talents that have almost no synergy or viability outside of PvP content. Even then, most of the good stuff requires your target to be out of combat. For those of you(pretty much everyone) unfamiliar with the spec, I'll give you a rundown of the rotation and abilities: (Note: this is the optimal talent build) Harpoon is used to apply the DoT On The Trail and is generally only used to engage. The DoT ticks for a hilariously low amount of damage and only serves to tank us on the meters if we die early since it ticks for 30+ seconds of horrible damage. Explosive Trap has to be targeted on the ground for some asinine reason, and finding your mouse cursor amongst 25 people and raid AoE along with UI and DBM is usually a nightmare. I've run into a couple of bosses that don't even trigger the trap, reported it but never got any response. Use on cooldown. Caltrops is in the exact same boat as Explosive Trap, except it starts off triggered so that usually isn't an issue. Use on cooldown. A Murder of Crows Just a DoT for the sake of damage, nothing else. Use on cooldown. Spitting Cobra Yet another DoT for the sake of damage, except this one give a slight bit of extra Focus. Use on cooldown. Lacerate Survival's bleed DoT, this one interacts with the new set bonuses, but I'll go over that later. Has to be maintained on the target. So after about 5-6 seconds of applying DoTs, then we can start our actual rotation! Raptor Strike This ability and the talent that interacts with it, Way of the Mok'Nathal, are the main cause of Survival's current woes. The buff that talent gives lasts 10 seconds, has 4 stacks and gives you a 12% AP buff (3% per stack) You basically have to maintain 4 stacks at all times or you are punished severely by having to stack back up to 4 mid rotation. Flanking Strike Big damage, has a good chance to give a Mongoose Bite charge, use on cooldown. Mongoose Bite The main ability of Survival, using this attack will open a 14 second window in which you must attempt to get up to 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury and unleash a Fury of the Eagle, a channeled spell that benefits from Mongoose Fury stacks. This ability is the fun part of the rotation, made hectic and downright infuriating when you add in the Way of the Mok'Nathal stacks. Mongoose Bite itself has 3 charges. Carve/Butchery Our non-trap AoE ability, this one does very high damage against 3 or more enemies, and since every fight but Goroth has adds, youll be using it every fight as well. Where does it fit in, you say? It doesn't, all it does is mess up the rest of the rotation leaving you Focus starved. This can often lead to blocks in your rotation for other abilities. Fury of the Eagle A channeled ability that damages all enemies in front of me, this one is preferably used on cooldown but that can't always happen since you need 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury to use it optimally. Aspect of the Eagle Not a damaging ability, but this one doubles your chance to get Mongoose Bite stacks and buffs your crit chance. You want to line this up for when Fury of the Eagle is off cooldown and you're ready to open a Mongoose WindowShauradra81 10h
10h Why does Sigma hate elemental shamans? EVERY issue that the elemental shaman community has been brought up to the attention of the developers has been met the complete opposite solutions. EQ too powerful because ES too weak? Nerf EQ, slight buff to ES still making us worse ST DPS in mythic. Getting too much mastery? Nerf mastery. EQ now too weak because of poor developer decision with EQ? How to fix? Nerf Chain lightning. They are REVERTING CL to WAY IT WAS AT BETA? REALLY? Is this your best developer solution? ST damage is bad? ignored. Poor personal CD/survivability? ignored. Bascially elemental CANNOT get a buff, at best they get to remain weak by making changes either a nerf of at best neutral. Shame on developers. Alot of the player base that main elemental shamans are quite frankly fed up. Sham, one of the BEST elemental shamans and a wealth of information is GONE. Rerolled to shadow priest. I won't be. I will cancel all my accounts and plan on not purchasing another blizzard/EA product. I suggest others do the same until they fix this since only thing blizzard understands is $$$.Dullness5 10h
11h Rogue 7.2.5, Feedback and going forward. This recent round of changes for rogues has been pretty great. A resounding success would be Sub, while it still needs more you've made it into a fun, enjoyable, and competitive spec again. Secondly, you've done great with assassination's AOE, I don't feel like I'm contributing nothing outside of lucky poison bomb procs anymore. Biggest for me, THANK YOU for removing Agonizing Poison, it was a tumor on an otherwise great spec, and let me tell you, it feels GREAT putting deadly poison on again. I believe that this is a phenomenal start, however I would like to give my take, and provide a place where others can give theirs on what rogues need moving forward. For assassination, we really need to have our golden traits, Blood of the Assassinated and Bag of Tricks looked at. As it stands currently, having such a large swing in our damage done be completely left to RNG, it just feels bad; especially when I get lucky on one pull where I get an insane amount of BoT procs at the right time and place, and the next pull I get none. To cope with this, I'd like to see Blood of the Assassinated reworked, maybe have it increase in intensity, where our target loses blood more rapidly as our poisons set, causing rupture to tick faster as poisons are applied. Bag of Tricks, we need control over this ability, such as having a new trait in its place and having it a talent on a charge system, or have some interaction with our poisons/envenom to ensure a proc. Please, PLEASE! Look into our talents, the fact that we're forced into taking venom rush over anything else as our LEVEL 100 talent is, quite frankly, sad. It out preforms the other two in just about every situation and is the most boring, unimaginative talent possible, an extra 3 energy, on our final talent tier, that's in direct competition with things like Marked for Death, and Death from Above, and it's not real competition because Venom Rush beats them both. For outlaw and Sub I'm regrettably lacking in knowledge as to what will help them, but my ideas are as follows. Oulaw should have grappling hook and killing spree baseline. They don't have a teleport/gap closer grappling hook is an awesome bit of flavor, and will even the playing field against the other two rogue specs. Killing Spree; this ability made me LOVE combat back in the day, thematically.... wow. Talk about spec defining ability! It's a travesty to have it on the talent system, and so bad in comparison that it's never taken. Sub doing pretty good since the work, could use some touch ups here and there (like giving them shadowy reflection as a talent choice) quite fitting with their class fantasy now. For Rogue as a whole, PLEASE look into haste, it's a dead stat for us and many other classes; it feels really bad to put on 10-20 lower ilvl armor because it has the wrong stats (i.e has haste) doubly so for rings and trinkets, I upgraded my 905 titanforged ring to a 880 one... and many people have even larger "upgrades". For assassination, how about making haste have a direct link with poison and bleed tick rate? If you're worrying about the damage buff it'll cause (we'd have a ton of extra energy from bleeds ticking faster and thus giving us more energy) not to mention now that they're ticking faster we're getting more damage quicker, halve the effectiveness for bleeds so we don't have crazy energy regen? I remember reading somewhere that haste was being thought about, but not something that's fixed in a patch. I implore you to relook at this, as an assassination rogue it feels terrible to get a piece of gear that's front loaded with haste (or has any on it period) and leads to lots of frustration, the fact that taking something a higher ilvl then what you're wearing can be an actual DOWNGRADE to your characters power is mind boggling. PLEASE don't make us wait for the next expansion to not have a dead stat.Worgandonor32 11h
12h Bm?! Help?! Is that it? Should we just abandon BM completely at this point? I understand there is this weird competitiveness in the hunter community between MM and BM and some weird prejudice again BM for being an 'easy' spec (as though any spec in this game can't be picked up easily) - but these can't be valid factors, from the perspective of game design, for allowing a spec to become so useless? Should we just be happy BM got played in mythic progression on avatar because of the low cooldown on aspect of the turtle? Some feedback would be nice if BM is being balanced, or Blizzard are happy with how it is.Rayster15 12h
12h Prot pally Okay so everyone knows that prot pally is not on the same power level as most of the other tanks. Just wondering if blizzard has anything they can share about upcoming changes. Increase uptime on sotr, increase stamina scaling, closer align other stats to haste so they don't seem so useless hint hint.Spankntankk134 12h
14h Death Knights in Legion and beyond feedback be sure to bug them about this topic The way you guys are taking Death Knights is in the wrong direction. It's very scary The Lich King may have been slow but he had teleport abilities. When he created us he gave us Unholy Presence for the much needed speed boost Wrath walk is terrible and having to shell out gold on a glyph and have a talent for each spec is sad and insulting. So please bring back Death's Advance. DA worked was free and never got stuck with it ever and the passive was awesome. here is some feedback about Wrath Walk you should read Here is part 2 Some QoL stuff that needs fixing in 8.X.X when we ditch our weapons please put back the absorb for AMS you took out for various reasons so it absorbs 75% again Runes recharge individually so when you use 4 they recharge as soon as you use them. Resulting in shorter down times. Death strike for Unholy and frost shouldn't be the same as Blood's DS please remove the 5 sec part and bring back how it healed in wod For Frost n Unholy a way to heal ourselfs other than death strike The presences brought back for a speed boost and to get back to the group or get out of the way faster. A sudden need to mini tank when out soloing old content, raiding and got caught in a mechanic you didn't expect. Also being able to not be cc'd as much as well go along way for survivability. GCD lowered to 1 Blood Returning some migration so healing through it won't be so spiky Frost tying Death strike to IBF for a bigger heal is a wast of a resource Breath be made baseline because it's to good in the talents. anywhere you put it will be the mandatory option or make the talents next to it better. abominations might replaced with hungering cold a area freeze because a rng stun is no fun obliteration needs to change to stacks of Km of 10 or more so if you get CC'd the stacks are less likely to fall off. Oblit scales off mastery or does frost damage in some way. In addition to runes recharging individually as soon as you use them I thought of this change Runic Empowerment You have 1.899 per rp spent to recharge a rune. You have 30-35% chance each time RE triggers to recharge all your runes when 4 or more are on cooldown. Death Runes Each time a full RE triggers you have 50% chance for your frost runes to become Death Runes and when a Death Rune is consumed you deal 30% additional shadowfrost damage per rune used. Death Grip Either have its cooldown lowered further reduced by haste or give it charges of 3 Also usable on allies but it pull you to them without triggering the cooldown or 1 sec cooldown Unholy Festering strike costing 2 runes and does 3 wounds would help with openers. A way to heal and secrafice your pet Anyone else agree with thisKrissignacia129 14h
15h Rogue cloak in specific Many of the top guilds have been running a lot of rogues for prog because of their short cd on their immunity(cloak) and now people are crying that they're broken. I've seen some good points in other threads here about immunities in general, but most of the crying I hear is about rogues because of guilds like exorsus and method running 3-5 of them. Before jumping the gun and nerfing a historically balanced ability, please take the time to consider the fact that they are strong in TOMB and not exactly in every other raid ever. Something like 8/9 tomb bosses have a soak mechanic so of course rogues will excel in this raid. If a smaller amount of bosses had soak mechanics, you wouldn't see nearly as many rogues. TL;DR: Rogues excel at soaking when 8/9 tomb bosses have soak mechanics. Design the raid better don't just nerf the class because they're strong in 1 tier.Gringots26 15h
15h Why is Fire T20 4set worse than T19? Just going to delete because I've been going on way too many rants lately. I'm just going to submit to Blizzards commands and do as they wish nowadays since they don't know how to design anything. But it's annoying how weak T20 is. It's going to take mythic tier 10+ ilvls to replace my current and when I get the 4pc it's going to be a few thousand DPS increase (basically not noticeable) for a passive that I'll never notice or care about because there is 0 interaction with it. Amazing.Dylemma13 15h
15h The Current Class Design is a Joke! I have been playing WoW since the start of TBC, and out of every expansion so far, the Class Design in Legion is just an absolute joke. It is like, the current developers that help design our classes doesn't know what they are doing? The most funnest I have ever played any of my classes was during MoP, during patch 5.4. Every class and spec had a lot of great play styles, ways to encounter each other, even great survivalbility and mobility, and was close to a perfect balance. But then you started pruning our abilities in WoD, which I thought was fine at first, but then you ruined some classes, and then as soon as more abilities were pruned and classes were changed, you vertually ruined not only our overall class designs, but the balance that the classes had. And this is not just for PVE, but for PVP as well. E.G, us Paladin's, we have a choice in our talents for ever more survivalbility or more speed. Or DK's, the most slowest malee class out there. Virtually, this is all beyond a joke. And most specs are nowadays hardly recognizable, for instance, Disc Priest or Survival Hunters. Please, bring back our class design from MoP or earlier. Give us that fun that we once had when we were playing our class. EDIT: Found this image linked from the EU Forums, and it litterly does describe our classes from MoP to Legion 15h
16h More to the Ayala Stone Heart Nerf Was the reduction of it's proc rate by 40% the only thing that happened to it? On average it seems Ayala would proc roughly speaking, 12 - 15 times per fight and with fights lasting roughly 5-8 minutes you can see it giving 2 maybe 3 procs a minute prior to nerf. Now the nerf seems to have left it procing less than once a minute. I get the ring was strong before but it just feels like a nerf of 40% wasn't the only thing done to the ring.Korcron3 16h
19h 7.2.5 Frost DK - a desperate plea the recent change (i.e nerf) to howling blast relic was suppose to fix our artifact trait imbalance but really with pretty much zero compensation - 3% buff to howling blast vs. 28% nerf - will completely break our backs in ToS, Howling blast is one of our last remaining good skills. judging by WCL stats from NH, frost dk might seem to be doing well, but our dps is massively inflated by aoe cleave and fights that don't require mobility. our current T19 is also extremely, ridiculoulsy strong. there is no way that T20 will match the t19 and infact will make our game play extremely awkward. even with no nerfs, frost dk will be low mediocre in ToS at BEST, with fights shifting over to pure ST along with high mobility requirements. read: any sort of loss of uptime during BoS completely and utterly destroys our dps. and finally coming back to the first point, even post nerf, howling blast relics are still by far BiS. it absolutely does not solve the issue, its just a flat nerf that is entirely not justified and will break us further TL;DR. please do not nerf blindly based on WCL stats in NH.Kairuime24 19h
20h Vengeance DH Suggestions: First off, let me say I love the concept of the DH tank. However, I think everyone who plays one will agree the spec is suffering on a number of fronts currently. Here are some suggestions on how I think would improve the class moving forward: Soul Cleave: This ability is in a really strange spot right now in that it is almost never used. As a core ability from the very start of the class, I can't imagine the devs would create this ability in the mindset of hardly touching it. It's basically outdone by spirit bomb in every way. My suggestions on improving it would be first to fix the pain cost associated with it. I really don't like how it can take away so much of my pain for what it does. I think it would also add something to the ability if it created a temporary overheal shield similar to the DK's Death Strike. Removing the soul cost would aslo help I feel as I think we have slightly too many abilities that are all competing for our soul usage. As it stands right now, there is hardly any reason to press the button. Shear: This is one of my least favorite abilities about the class. In fact, I hate it how it is designed. There is nothing more tedious than playing Shear simulator interrupted by a few cooldows. Yes I'm exaggerating, but the ability is very tedious currently. I suggest upping its damage and pain generation by 4x the amount currently and adding an appropriate cooldown to it, say 6-8 secs. I think this would greatly help the feel of the class. Utility: This is currently great in dungeons, but very lackluster in raids. As it currently stands, why take a self healing DH over a self healing DK to a raid who also comes with a battle rez and mass grip? Some people can probably come give a good argument for what we bring to the table in a raid, but it pales in comparison to what other tanks bring. I'm not sure what the solution to this one is, but I feel like we are lacking in this department. Physical Mitigation: So, you devs have obviously seen the error in your ways in providing class fixes built into legendaries when you removed BM hunter's second charge of dire beast from their legendary and baked it into the base class. I think we need the same treatment here and take the additional charge of Demon Spikes off of our new legendary and make it baseline. We all know VDH's are struggling in this department, so throw us a bone and give us 3 charges baseline. Randomness: So I for one hate that part of our survival as a tank is tied in to complete randomness. Every time I get a meta proc in the wrong place and time feels awful. It feels even worse when I really need a proc and can't get one. Survivability is not the place to add randomness to a tank! I suggest keeping it as a proc, but let us hold onto the proc and activate it when we think we need it. Give us more control over our survivability and not have to pray to RNG all the time. Souls: I like souls. They are very unique to us as a DH. However, I hate trying to save up to 5 souls for a large heal and move ever so slightly and consume 2 of them before I can get off that large heal or spirit bomb. My suggestion is to make souls not be able to be picked up by moving until you are out of combat. Anyway, these are my suggestions on how to improve the class. Let me know what you guys think and hopefully we can get some good feedback for the devs moving forward.Rokanis23 20h
1d Tuning without Communication? When a tuning pass gets last minute tweaks (as happened July 25), could we get a blue post to explain the rationale? Seeing changes we don't understand with zero communication around them is very frustrating.Felfaadaern12 1d
1d Shadow in 7.2.5 & beyond Hello everyone, We of the HowToPriest staff have decided to write a large feedback document in order to display some of the problems we foresee shadow could have in the future - not just concerns about numbers, but also about some gameplay issues as we see them. The purpose of this document is to instigate discussion regarding shadow going forward in Legion. As such, feel free to post your own thoughts on whatever subject pertaining to shadow in either the EU or US thread for this document as long as it’s done in a constructive manner. Disclaimer beforehand that our point of view is mainly that of a raider’s, but we also briefly mention dungeons here and there. A brief summary of what we write about in the document (we urge people to read the full document for more in depth explanation though!): Shadow’s strengths are well defined, and if fights are well suited to our strengths then we look good during progression, but our talents don’t offer us any good means to specialize in areas beyond what we are already strong at. This is because we basically have one set in stone talent build for all situations, and quite a few of the talents we use are good at everything. This means that the talents that aren’t as versatile are left in the dust, and even in their niche they don’t necessarily outperform the more versatile talents. The three talents that we currently consider to be too good are Twist of Fate, Lingering Insanity and Power Infusion. Beyond these three talents being really good numerically right now, they also feel like an integral part of the shadow playstyle and fantasy. Giving up these talents feels bad in a lot of cases for that reason. Simply nerfing the talents that are currently picked all the time is too short sighted, as the reasons for not picking other talents don’t just boil down to the other talents being too weak. Mind Sear’s Shadow Word: Pain requirement makes little sense on top of adding frustration and extra set up to what is already a boring and unrewarding AoE rotation. The playstyle that The Twins’ Painful Touch forces you into in order to benefit from it optimally is silly, unintuitive and very unfriendly to newer players. Spamming our dots instead of Mind Flay doesn’t seem like an intended way to benefit from an already niche legendary. Future changes to shadow seem like they’re overshadowed by the existence of Surrender to Madness. It feels like the safe route is chosen in order to minimize the opportunity that Surrender to Madness becomes a thing again. Examples of that suspicion include our new traits Fiending Dark and Lash of Insanity, and also our (as of right now) T20 set bonuses. All three of these affect our guardians in some way or another, and they have no further synergy with anything else in our kit. Shadowfiend is a boring cooldown that you press every 3 minutes without it giving us feedback that it’s doing anything in any way, nor does it synergize with anything else in our kit. The damage it does is also mediocre compared to a lot of other 3 minute cooldowns. Our T20 set bonuses are boring because they do nothing but give us more and stronger Shadowfiend/Mindbender casts over the course of a fight. Therefore, the set bonuses do nothing to make our boring cooldown any more exciting. In terms of damage, Shadowfiend also scales way better with both Fiending Dark and T20 than Mindbender does, especially if you take into consideration that you lose Power Infusion by picking Mindbender. Legendary imbalance is also a concern here. The full document in question can be read here: EU thread: Thanks in advance for reading!Anshlun1245 1d
1d Vengeance Demon Hunters So some time has passed now and we're all settled into our Fracture/Spirit Bomb rotation leaving Soul Cleave completely useless. Is this really intended? If so, can we get a new T20 4-piece set bonus or are we stuck waiting until T21? Maybe just have Spirit Bomb replace Soul Cleave and any passives/procs triggered by Soul Cleave will now trigger off Spirit Bomb.Kryonyx61 1d
1d Bring back Killshot BM and MM If Bm got kill shot back that would round out some of the complaints about bms damage that I have been seeing on the forums.Droptopss15 1d
1d Retribution Discussions - 7.2.5 Since the last post hit the cap I'll be starting this new post where we can continue to discuss our ideas and provide feedback for our specialization. How is everyone feeling about Retribution in 7.2.5? Have you felt any difference since the 3.5% buff? Lets provide concrete and effective feedback for any devs that happen to look our way. Link to previous post: 1d
1d MM/BM 7.3 7.3 looks pretty good but i don't see any hunter changes as of yet. it's somewhat early sure, but it's worrying. MM has been the straight up worst re-design and a lot of hunters (myself included) simply don't enjoy tracking a buff and standing still like a cripple arms warrior. there was almost no real answers at the AMA on reddit about marks because i know for certain there was a lot of hunters wanting their questions answered about the abysmal rework and not being allowed to get them answered is infuriating. BM isn't nearly as bad but it's somewhat frustrating falling into an extreme RNG pit for dps. the majority of beast mastery hunters right now seem to be going beast stomp which means it's about 15 RNG components that have to line up for several minutes at a time to get good results. i also don't care too much about managing dire frenzy stacks as a baseline spell. it's stale and doesn't feel anything like focus fire. focus fire you either got to a point where you had overlapping 5 stacks into 5 stacks or banked them to make use of other things. dire frenzy you simply can't sit on or ever get to a breakpoint where you can safely use them on CD even when you're 40% crit, one with the pack. and let's not talk about survival... you know what you've done. mm still has almost no resemblance or option to be similar to ranged survival in playstyle or spells.Foxinghunter11 1d
1d Fire Mage Needs Change. **Disclaimer - Everything is subject to change** Before there is any "rofl you don't know what you're talking about, crit worst stat? lul noob" comments. I've been consistently a top 3 parsing mage since I picked up mage. If you don't know who I am. I've been playing fire since the start of Legion and haven't switched once. Ranked #1 in NH heroic, #1 in Normal, #3 in Mythic 7.2 and #1 for Mythic 7.2.5. I would like to emphasize that I'm not trying to gloat by any means. It's just to show I know what I'm talking about, that's all. I know it's early/late to be proposing change, but hopefully we can see change in 7.3 or 7.3.5. Ever since 7.1.5, Fire mage saw a serious change in stat weights. Combustion nerfed to 50% - I can agree with this nerf. The ignite spread was far too insane and would only get worse later down the road. It was bad for the spec in general, the spread damage it could do was unnecessary and screamed for nerfs. The nerf has really hurt our crit value in return. Pyretic Incantation nerf - Nerfs always suck, but I can say it was needed just for the simple fact that it did super buff some trinkets. Firestarter Change - It was a very nice change, but it comes with a slight problem, if you run low crit, it's too good and it devalues crit regardless of stats. Which is a big no in my opinion. That's bad for the spec fantasy. It's a really fun talent don't get me wrong. It's also generally MUCH better in raiding than the other talents, especially when using legendary bracers. It brings down crit and once again rises haste up the stat weight chart. Which I don't think is healthy for the spec with the current GCD in legion. Crit is the engine of this spec and needs to be in the driving seat but not being too powerful of a stat at the same time so we don't have ilvl issues like before. At the end of the day, Pyromaniac needs buffed/ideally reworked and you just need to find a healthy balance to bring crit up without nerfing or reworking firestarter. Legendary Belt Change - The belt is another legendary that's almost NEVER taken off and also reliable, so we're forced into this belt which isn't entirely bad gameplay wise. It fun to use. Great change, it was useless before 7.1.5. BUT! Once again, this belt came with a problem. Devalues crit a lot and brings haste way up in the stat priority which is a huge no for fire with the GCD change in legion. Take away the guaranteed crit and up the damage. The current way of using belt correctly is a bit odd for a rotation. Making this change would make it play more like the fireball rotation just with scorch. Basically you keep your fire blast charges unless you're capped or you have 0 crits. So if you don't have a Heating Up you can Fire Blast and Scorch Pyro knowing you'll get a Hot Streak! because of Scorch crit. If it wasn't a guaranteed crit you would treat it like it may not crit just like fireball so the rotation would flow much better. Haste is a bad design for Fire - In the current state of fire, at some point when you have too much haste, the spec starts being a hassle mechanically. The GCD is so low because they lowered the GCD in legion and the casts are so quick that you can't do the rotation correctly. Also you're basically FORCED to do a little dance when lust is used and you've popped Combustion. It's a design flaw. So ideally we want haste to be our least desired stat as fire. Not the case since 7.1.5. Haste is usually your best stat in almost all cases or at the very very least high up the chart for 2nd/3rd best stat. So you really want haste currently. What has this spec come to? Crit is currently the worst stat in almost ALL cases and on my character currently, crit is my lowest stat BY FAR. Which is unreal considering the spec was designed to scale with crit. If you really wanted haste to be so strong for fire then something needs done about projectile speeds and Critical Mass change. But that still doesn't solve the GCD and scaling issue. Critical Mass Change - This is the big head scratcher for me. This was obviously one of the biggest reasons why crit was so valuable. I can see why it was changed. The change was for the better, BUT...after the change, Critical Mass passive is NEARLY USELESS because we DON'T EVEN WANT TO WEAR CRIT GEAR OR USE CRIT GEMS >.< How does that make any sense!! You designed this so we slowly scale with critical strike rating. But nope. Instead we scale poorly because crit is the worst stat for Fire Mage currently. Last Note Hope I see some of these changes being considered in the future. I just want to make fire back to how it should be.Dylemma62 1d
1d T21 Hunter Set Bonuses So from new build the hunter set bonuses are as followed Beast Mastery Updated - Item - Hunter T21 Beast Mastery 2P Bonus - Kill Command Damage Kill Command damage increased by 0%. 10%. Item - Hunter T21 Beast Mastery 4P Bonus - Wild Call Kill Command Reset When Wild Call resets the cooldown of Dire Beast, the cooldown of Kill Command is reduced by 0 seconds. 1.0 seconds. Marksman Updated - Item - Hunter T21 Marksmanship 2P Bonus - Marked Shot Sometimes Shoots Twice Marked Shot has a 0% 15% chance to fire at the target an additional time. Item - Hunter T21 Marksmanship 4P Bonus - Marked Shot Buffs Focus Builders When Marked Shot deals damage, the damage of your next Focus generating shot is increased by 0%, and it will generate 0% additional Focus. Stacks up to 0 times. Arcane Shot is increased by 20% or Multi-Shot damage by 20%, and your next Arcane Shot will generate an additional 5 Focus, or your next Multi-shot will generate an additional 1 Focus. Survival Updated - Item - Hunter T21 Survival 2P Bonus - Flanking Strikes Buffs Raptor Strike Crit Flanking Strike has a 0% 10% chance to increase the critical strike chance of your next Raptor Strike by 0%. within until cancelled by 100%. Item - Hunter T21 Survival 4P Bonus - Mongoose Bite Buffs Raptor Strike Damage Each cast of Mongoose Bite increases the damage of your next Raptor Strike by 0%. Stacks up to 0 times. 10%. Stacks up to 6 times. Though this is subject to change and maybe an early set bonus for each of the specs I guess I am a bit confused on how these set bonuses will play out. Beast Mastery The two piece is just a flat increase to kill command? is this correct or is this just a datamining error, if so it seems like a rather dull two piece it puts emphasis on kill command while not alleviating the focus issue ( either having too much focus or not enough) as focus recovery for beast mastery is heavily based on wild call procs though some what alleviated now that direbeast/frenzy is now 2 stacks. The four set seems really confusing, Wild Call Kill Command Reset (New) When Wild Call resets the cooldown of Dire Beast, the cooldown of Kill Command is reduced by 0 seconds. if I am understanding this correctly wild call procs not only reset kill command, but the reset cd from dire beast helps reduce the cooldown of kill command even further? if this is the case is our gameplay in 7.3 ( 7.3.5) going to heavily rely on wild call procs for kill command if everything is being laced around kill command? Marksmanship Two Piece Marked Shot Sometimes Shoots Twice (New) Marked Shot has a 0% chance to fire at the target an additional time. This seems like it would be beneficial for AoE purposes but again depending on the proc this may either play out to be beneficial or not really not that beneficial for Marksmanship. Four Piece Marked Shot Buffs Focus Builders (New) When Marked Shot deals damage, the damage of your next Focus generating shot is increased by 0%, and it will generate 0% additional Focus. Stacks up to 0 times. With this it seems like marked shot helps focus recovery outside of spamming arcane shot as well as buffs damage of any shot that generates focus while helping recovery of focus? Survival ( I don't play survival I am just doing my best to interpret the tier 2/4 sets) Item - Hunter T21 Survival 2P Bonus - Flanking Strikes Buffs Raptor Strike Crit (New) Flanking Strike has a 0% chance to increase the critical strike chance of your next Raptor Strike by 0%. This two piece seems like it benefits raptor strike by having flanking strike increase its critical strike chance how this plays out I don't know looking for input on these from survival hunters. Item - Hunter T21 Survival 4P Bonus - Mongoose Bite Buffs Raptor Strike Damage (New) Each cast of Mongoose Bite increases the damage of your next Raptor Strike by 0%. Stacks up to 0 times. Looks like another tier set that buffs raptor strike damage so it seems like this tier set for survival is centralized around raptor strike? ( looking for survival hunter input on this as I dont play the spec just analyzing what I am reading ) TLDR Early tier bonus previews for hunters, they are subject to change and honestly they seem a bit confusing and good? the Marksman one seems like it addresses some of the issues outside of vuln while beastmaster is focused on Kill Command while ignoring the issue of wild call procs for focus recovery ( either capping focus due to procs or dry spells though the mantle of command being baked into the spec helps a little, they still did not address the focus issue with the spec) survival I don't know enough about but it seems like its centeralized around buffing raptor strike maintaining Mongoose bite stacks for increased damage and timing flanking strikes?Manales25 1d
1d PvE utility balance I think Tomb of Sargeras has highlighted the need for a second look at class and spec utility balance. There are some classes which are simply bringing much more utility to a raid than others, and the fact that many of these classes are also bringing competitive dps only compounds the problem. Tomb of Soak-geras Many fights have been littered with soaking mechanics that can be bypassed with a class with an immunity. This creates a large variance in encounter difficulty with a group which has many immunity classes vs a group with very little. Thus leaves specs like elemental, enhancement, ww, etc. behind. Mobility As encounters become more complex, positioning and mobility have become more valuable. Classes with high mobility are able to handle the mechanics much better and thus make the encounters easier. Classes with low mobility like dk are often unable to contribute which makes them less desirable. DPS Balance Unfortunately dps (im)balance has compounded the problem. Many of the very low utility specs like frost dk, elemental, ww, enhance, etc. offer bottom of the barrel dps. And it feels like a detriment to the group. Solutions I think Blizzard really needs to sit down and think about the direction they want to take utility vs. damage in PvE. There are far too many specs with either both or none, and it is causing degenerate behaviour in the form of avoiding low utility low dps classes. The solution needs to be a fix to the class kits, not the raid encounters. Raid encounters should be designed with the class kits in mind, not the other way around.PlayerKZVLQH14 1d
1d You Just Gutted Arms. The legendary nerfs for arms warriors are far too excessive. We are looking at a 100-150k DPS loss because you finally found that our legendaries are essential to the spec. But nerfing them this way.. 40% to ayalas, another 2% off Storms eye. Thats's the wrong way to go about it. it deincentivises legendaries, and you've flat out hit us with a nerfhammer. If your going through with this plan, please compensate our damage elsewhere with a 5% Aura. Nerfing classes Mid Tier should never happen. we have all put our time and effort into the classes we have chosen for this raid, and to have nerfs like this go out is a complete kneejerk reaction.Theragecagé85 1d
1d Nerfing Rogue shoulders Blizzard if you wanted to Nerf Sub, which clearly this is the intention. You can't just nerf Outlaw and Sin and think that it will work itself out. Buff the dmg of those two specs to compensate for those specs are already lacking compared to Sub.Sçythér29 1d
1d Resto Shaman Affinity Talent I did a quick check before making my own post and I didn't want to necro anything so here we are. I would like an affinity talent for Resto, so that you can choose if you want to be a melee healer or a ranged healer. Being locked to Ele abilities as Resto isn't bad but I would like the option since this is a class that lends itself to either option. Since it is play-style dependent I would like this to be an option early on in the talent tree. To me the big question is what is the third talent to compete with an Ele & Ench Affinity talent. Anyway would love to hear other peoples thought on this, love/hate the idea. What tier would you put it on, what talent would compete with it?Remrii1 1d
1d Are elemental shamans bugged in pvp did a test and i found for me in both elemental and resto lava burst are both doing around 250-280k hits. im going to go out on a limb and say this isnt intended. i dont think our 70% passive increase to critical strike damage is working on templates. anyone else notice this? also base damage for lightning bolt is higher in resto than in ele not sure if intended.Vlaxx0 1d
1d Missed the Mark ... Class Design Team Seph_WoW 1 month ago This was said a month ago, Outlaw T19 is still better than T20 at up to +20 Ilvl depending on trinkets. The spec is also performing poorly overall. I think this might be a good time to push T20 up a few.Dlog0 1d
1d Feral Druid Changes in 7.3.0 Hi Cats, We have a number of changes to Feral Druids coming soon. The general goals of these changes are: 1. Reduce (but not necessarily displace entirely) the dominance of the big three complexifying and powerful talents: Savage Roar, Jagged Wounds, and Bloodtalons. Each of those talents is (on live) winning by a large margin in terms of throughput against other talents on their rows. 2. Balance out the power level of the last 3 talent rows, allowing more talents builds to be viable. 3. Increase the skill floor and reduce how punishing it can be to error when playing the rotation. 4. Compensate for power-level-reductions of talents with baseline damage increase to the spec so that at the highest level, performance isn’t really affected, but the bottom of the spec is brought up. The most major changes: All damage done increased by 33%. Jagged Wounds reduced to 20%. (down from 33%) Savage Roar duration increased by 50% at all combo points. Damage bonus reduced to 15%. (down from 25%) Bloodtalons damage bonus reduced to 25%. (down from 50%) Looking back at the development of Feral Druid in Legion: when Savage Roar was moved from a baseline ability to the talent tree, in order to bring the power level of the ability closer to most talents (+25% damage to everything for a long duration is far stronger than most talents are), rather than reducing its damage bonus, its duration was significantly shortened instead. This contributed greatly to the overconstrained and overly punishing Feral rotation that you see on live today. Additionally, Jagged Wounds was added as a new talent, reducing the amount of free combo points Ferals had available to finishers such as Ferocious Bite (which was basically pushed out of the rotation entirely). Both talents probably would have been fine on their own, but taken together (because they were the strongest) at the live tuning values led to a more pressured Feral rotation than we felt was right. Additionally, a few talents are being rearranged in the talent tree: Jagged Wounds moved to lvl 75 row. (from lvl 90 row) Savage Roar moved to lvl 90 row. (from lvl 75 row) Brutal Slash moved to lvl 90 row. (from lvl 100 row) Elune’s Guidance moved to lvl 100 row. (from lvl 90 row) The primary gain here is moving Brutal Slash to a sort of multitarget/AOE lvl 90 talent row along with Sabertooth (which can be well-utilized in a sustained low-target situation), giving the lvl 90 row a solid talent for dungeons. For now, we want to go with an arrangement that keeps Jagged Wounds, Savage Roar, and Bloodtalons on separate rows so the current most common live build is still possible. Other less major changes include quality of life and tuning adjustments to some talents to balance out the rows: Prowl cooldown reduced to 6 sec (down from 10 sec) for all Druid specs. Rebirth is castable in all forms, and consequently, is no longer affected by or consumes Predatory Swiftness. Sabertooth damage bonus to Ferocious Bite increased to 20%. Incarnation: King of the Jungle energy cost reduction reduced to 50% (down from 60%) and only allows the use of Prowl once. This it to balance out that talent row with the new Jagged Wounds and to reduce the frequency of Rake stuns in PvP while still allowing Incarnation to function as an effective Vanish. Moment of Clarity now causes Omen of Clarity to trigger twice as often and increases the damage of the affected abilities by 25%. This is to better space out what is essentially a large energy proc and reduce slightly the impact that a single talent has on the resource income and pacing of the rotation. Elune’s Guidance cooldown reduced to 30 sec (down from 45 sec) and combo points granted reduced to 5 + 5 over 5 seconds (down from 5 + 8 over 8 seconds). Overall, with these changes, balance for the last 3 talent rows and consequently overall should be better in general. We expect the current most common build/playstyle of Jagged Wounds + Savage Roar + Bloodtalons to still remain one of the strongest builds, but it should no longer win by a huge margin over other competing talent builds and also should be a little less strenuous to play. These changes should be available in an upcoming PTR build. As usual, we may make further adjustments – especially tuning – as PTR progresses.Seph273 1d