I'm calling you out on this mess up. Fix it.

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09/29/2013 10:53 AMPosted by Puffpuffsap
Hunter 1 CD/1 Passive - Iron Hawk 10% passive DR, Deterrence 2 minute CD at best...


Hunters' frequent failure to take spirit bond, glyph of animal bond, glyp of deterrence, etc.. does not mean that the devs messed up. To be blunt, they often have simply chosen the wrong talent(s) for PVE. There "is" a right choice on each boss, it's just up to each player to understand them (and the various glyphs as well).

Skilled Hunters are just fine where they are. Less skilled hunters are the only ones in a bad spot, and the game is already broken enough from dumbing it down for baddies.


Firstly we already take those glyphs... secondly its either Iron Hawk for 10% DR or Spirit Bond for 3% HP every 2 seconds. Seeing as reducing the damage in the first place is usually better than healing it up afterward, and seeing as we're usually more worried about large bursts of raid damage not continuous ticking damage, we take Iron Hawk mostly. Yes there are a few fights where we'd consider Spirit Bond.
I didn't read every post in this thread (stopped at around page 9), but I just realized where the problem may lie (lay?) in.

I think the problem isn't so much the consistency of the deterrences, but the front loading part of it. Before, with readiness, deterrence could be used every 2 minutes (1 minute with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera), with the ability to use another deterrence every 5 minutes. With the current patch, this was changed so you can use deterrence every 3 minutes (2 minutes with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera), but because of the charge system, you can use one upfront and use another deterrence right after if needed.

And here lies the problem.

Currently, a hunter can use deterrence twice every 6 minutes (4 minutes with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera) if needed, whereas before, a hunter could use deterrence twice every 5 minutes with readiness. If deterrence were changed to have a shorter recharge system (say, like what I had proposed and make it 90 second recharge timer with a 30 second recharge reduction with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera), then a hunter would be able to double deterrence a lot more frequently, as in every 3 minutes with a 90 second recharge timer or every 2 minutes with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera.

As you can probably figure out, this would be a significant buff in the PvP world. Therefore, the solution would be something like make deterrence on a 2 minute recharge timer, but the 2nd recharge would take 6 minutes to recharge. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera would reduce the recharge timer by, say, 60 seconds, making the first deterrence on a one minute recharge but the 2nd charge on a 5 minute recharge timer.

However, given the limitations of the current system, this is probably just going to be a pipe dream but something to that effect would greatly help the hunter's only defensive cooldown.

Edit: Cleaning up and making edits to things that were wrong. And I do realize the solution I proposed is just the old system with readiness on the charge system, so it may not be the best solution. It's just the only one that I can think up of at the moment.
There is no informed explanation or logical reason for why the CD on Deterrence was increased by a full minute. The only cause the community can conclude is that the devs made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. Perhaps the developer implementing it did not understand how charges worked. This is the best hypothesis for this problem. If charges recharged independently (in parallel) instead of serially, then increasing the time by a minute comes in line with what GC states and all looks reasonable. But instead we're in a situation where we don't have any defensive cooldown for a long time.

Charges are an interesting approach for this. I'm not sure there are other abilities that have such long cycle charging that the serial re-charge problem would have been noticed before.

I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.


As the OP clearly stated the confusion has been in the community and with statements that do not match the developed product.


However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.


IMHO, that use is only for PvP. I'm not aware of PvE where we have really needed it twice in less than 60 seconds. For both PvP and PvE it is a straight out mathematical, factual, and significant defensive nerf. It was communicated several times as something better than what was developed.
So you are saying that if the raid takes bursts of damage every minute and I pop Deterrence on the first one and the second and have zero cooldowns for the third one that it is a skill cap issue?

How can I use Deterrence for that third one? fifth one?

Please help me improve my skill cap.


You are not supposed to have a big mitigation cooldown every single minute. The skill comes in working out the correct pattern with your healers and their CDs (or extra heals on you specifically). You are not expected to personally, and without any assistance, live through every single boss ability. You have a team. If you say in advance that you intend to use deterrence on 1/3/5 and that you will need more healing 2/4/6 then they can plan ahead as well with this new knowledge instead of both of you guessing as to when special attention will be needed.

This really only applies to premade groups on flex and above. It's not really an issue in LFR, as communication is expected to be nonexistent for the most part, and these sorts of abilities are considerably more forgiving in the LFR difficulty.

Communication about CDs and so forth, preferably in advance, is way more important than people think. There's a reason the top raiders often clear early content in blues that the rest of us often require quite a bit more gear to complete.


If that is true then why do only Hunters have this vision of needing to make do without cooldowns to use every minute?

If you factor all the cooldowns available to other classes it seems pretty strange that this vision of working with others extends to hunters and ends with hunters.

All other classes would have a cooldown of some sort available every minute except Hunters.

It is not like we can even attack when we use our cooldown while other classes can so it does not seem OP.

I am sure glad we at least bring a raidwide cooldown to help out. oh wait....
I might even be okay with a 2.5 min CD (talented) as long as the 2 charges recharged independently. THAT is the issue. Independent recharging makes it more reliable like it was previously.
09/29/2013 04:18 AMPosted by Sherbear
And even then, if you have a druid anywhere in your group you have double tranq with an Spriest. Spriests also have Mass Dispel. Miles more utility than we have.


Except for the fact that a Symb Spriest tranq is miserably nerfed in comparison to a a resto druids tranq. The pitiful healing doesn't make up for the DPS loss the Spriest has to take to cast it. I never Symb our Spriest.

Our Hunter sure as heck has helped MY 10 man raid team tremendously, especially when we lost our Spriest(got another thank goodness), Mage AND Shaman. Being able to provide ANY buff is a fairly powerful utility, imo.

As far as the OP goes... Now you know why Blizzard never usually muses about anything via internet discussions. They have proven time and time again to change their minds on a whim without explanation. I'd take anything they say on the Watercooler and Twitter with a grain of salt.


Name a raid CD a hunter brings besides BL that is even close to as good as a neutered Tranq. And if you ask me, utility that is only useful when you lack people/your raid lead can't properly put together a group is pretty awful utility. That's not to mention the devs think traps and MD can be considered utility.
09/29/2013 10:53 AMPosted by Puffpuffsap
Hunter 1 CD/1 Passive - Iron Hawk 10% passive DR, Deterrence 2 minute CD at best...


Hunters' frequent failure to take spirit bond, glyph of animal bond, glyp of deterrence, etc.. does not mean that the devs messed up. To be blunt, they often have simply chosen the wrong talent(s) for PVE. There "is" a right choice on each boss, it's just up to each player to understand them (and the various glyphs as well).

Skilled Hunters are just fine where they are. Less skilled hunters are the only ones in a bad spot, and the game is already broken enough from dumbing it down for baddies.


Funny, I use all of those things (besides Spirit Bond since there is rarely small amounts of sustained damage that are really an issue, not sure where you got the idea that it was our go-to talent). However, feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong. Go ahead. I'll wait.

I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.

However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.

It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working.


It comes down to this. Skilled players can (and routinely do) now make better use (read: more effective usage per match) of Deterrence now than we used to be able to. This is quite a bit more useful now than it ever was before, regardless of how many people failed math class and do not recognize this.

Skill cap has been increased slightly. Improve or reroll.

To those who still don't "get" it, please consider the possibility if you're having difficulty understanding how to get the most out of deterrence, then it might be a resource/CD management issue, not a mechanics issue.


The bolded part is just funny. It's already clearly been shown that we get less Deterrences in a fight now, perhaps you might want to go back to your math classes. As for 'skill cap', it's not a skill cap issue unless Deterrence is being used to make up for mistakes, even using it perfectly you are still more of a strain on your healers than you were before.
[Well, that was... rude, to say the least. You're all well and good to present opinions like we are. Heck, I posted my reasoning behind my opinion with my raid experience using Deterrence for specific fights.

Attacking the points of view of people in this way is uncalled for. You want to suggest the opposite of our view is true? Do it constructively, please, or not at all.


Hilarious, considering the tone you folks are taking with Lore & everyone else in general. If only Deterrence had a shorter CD you could have deflected those hurt feels.
You **CAN** attack during this. In fact you can do more damage during your mitigation ability than most other classes during their similar abilities. Hunters routinely (situationally) hit big red kitty and then pop this and laugh. Once again, this is a skill/experience thing that any hunter can learn, and not the result of a broken class.


Please enlighten me as to which attacks I can use while pacified during Deterrence.
Is it possible to code this differently in raids so it acts as it did before in raids? A lot of spells act differently in raids. This is something that would solve the problem and negate a nerf to those who raid without affecting a large amount of the hunter population.
[Well, that was... rude, to say the least. You're all well and good to present opinions like we are. Heck, I posted my reasoning behind my opinion with my raid experience using Deterrence for specific fights.

Attacking the points of view of people in this way is uncalled for. You want to suggest the opposite of our view is true? Do it constructively, please, or not at all.


Hilarious, considering the tone you folks are taking with Lore & everyone else in general. If only Deterrence had a shorter CD you could have deflected those hurt feels.

People REALLY need to stop judging everyone in a thread based on a couple people bashing devs. Just because we ignore it doesn't mean we condone it. Unless the person above directly bashed the devs themselves your comment is pointless and brings nothing to the discussion.

After reading through this post more then I usually do, I can safely say that Hunters are going on and on about nothing. Blizzard has a major habit of way overnerfing Hunters, but this is not one of those cases. The most repeated argument in this thread is avoiding burst damage every time it happens in a raid. It's a very poor argument as you are meant to simply avoid damage and not bypass it every time it happens so you can bypass certain mechanics. Sure sometimes damage is unavoidable but it will never kill the player unless the raid is doing something very wrong. The only other argument involves comparing Hunters to other classes which again is always a poor argument to make, unless we are talking about real data on raid deaths (which no on has provided) and factor in other factors. Hunters have a toolkit that other classes do not have like casting unhindered while moving.

I really love how people continue trying to make the argument that people are bad, are wanting to avoid mechanics, stand in fire, etc. Raid/defensive CDs for non tanks are usually spent on raid wide UNAVOIDABLE damage or parts of a fight where raid damage is just crazy. That is exactly what most are talking about in here in terms of having less deterrence CDs available now compared to pre patch.

Yes and I think most Hunters realize the challenge in balancing that, but it was a great change. For the longest time Hunters had both the negatives of a caster and melee with few of the positives. Now we're finally a ranged melee. Sure it helps us avoid damage a bit more easily, but that's not helping against the unavoidable dmg.

Where have people been asking to avoid damage every single time it was up? All I've been seeing is people wanting the uptime of Deterrence to be roughly the same as before. It is not in most circumstances which has been proven as fact a few times already with the CD breakdowns.

Lastly, no this nerf/change does not cripple hunters, make them not viable or anything close to that, but that doesn't mean the change isn't a bad one. If they want the up time of it to be less they should come out and say it, but either way the charge system needs tweaking. Deterrence charges needs to recharge independently. That would solve the whole problem regardless of the CD that put on each.

09/29/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Limpstick
As the OP clearly stated the confusion has been in the community and with statements that do not match the developed product.


Except this is no longer the case. This post contains a blue saying working as intended and people are still QQing about it. This is not the only ability to work with CDs recharging serially. Archimonde's Vengence also works this way with the Dark Soul charges. It's just something you will have to adjust to and learn to work around.

No it still IS the case. Them simply saying "working as intended" does not negate what was already said & done. GC explained it as having 2 charges independently recharging every 3 min. That is not the case and we deserve and explanation as to why. If he simply misunderstood how it was going to work, fine, but come out and say that. And then we can move past it and hopefully look at ways to tweak it to be more reliable.
09/30/2013 05:47 AMPosted by Puffpuffsap
Funny, I use all of those things (besides Spirit Bond since there is rarely small amounts of sustained damage that are really an issue, not sure where you got the idea that it was our go-to talent). However, feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong. Go ahead. I'll wait.

This is between you and your raid leader. If he chooses to take you since you're smarter than every other hunter who chooses to take this talent, that's on him.

Not our fault if you flat our refuse to do what every other hunter in the world is doing, dude. Not all glyphs are sexy. Some are just required for certain bosses, whether you want it or not.

As for 'skill cap', it's not a skill cap issue unless Deterrence is being used to make up for mistakes, even using it perfectly you are still more of a strain on your healers than you were before.


Yes it is a skill issue, whether or not you acknowledge it. If you feel that deterrence isn't up enough during one specific fight, then it's an encounter issue... not a class issue.

Fact is if undergeared scrub hunters can do it, then it's not a class thing.

At any rate, you don't seem to want actual assistance... you are adopting the position of QQ no matter what information is presented to you, so I'm now done trying to help you.


ROFL I like how you go in directly with the personal attacks. FYI, I've seen one top-level hunter using Spirit Bond and 90% of normally progressing hunters are using Iron Hawk. I'm curious where you think your knowledge of the class comes from because pretty much every reputable source disagrees with you on Spirit Bond. I also know plenty about using lackluster glyphs for certain fights, why do you think I'm using the Exp. Trap glyph? It's specifically for Galakras and handling Bonecrushers.

Don't try to act like you're here 'assisting' anyone. You're here to troll, plain and simple. You very clearly do not know what you are talking about and the minute you're questioned you try and act like they must just be bad players.

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