Cataclysm Entry Raids

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
I have watched some videos of the new Cataclysm raids but I don't want to spoil it for myself, but I would like to know from a beta tester's perspective:

How does BWD, TB, and TotFW compare to TBC's and Vanilla's entry raids?

From what I've heard so far people say they are almost as good as Ulduar was, but what makes them so good? Difficulty? Mechanics? Loot? Raid Instance Design? Trash?


If you have watched all the fights by video please post as well :), Just mainly wondering from a person who has done it.
If things stay the way they are, pugs will never kill anything in them, and I really really really really really hope it stays this way.
If pugs cant clear the entry raids, and blizzard doesnt nerf them, new tiers dont have to exponentially increase in power like they did in wrath in order to make them valuable upgrade paths.

The proper order of the game is one where 50% of the population never sees the second tier of raiding completed, because they are not good enough to finish the first.

If at any point it becomes possible to take the next step without taking the first, everything gets out of whack like wotlk did.

The proper order of the game is one where 50% of the population never sees the second tier of raiding completed, because they are not good enough to finish the first.


Where do you get such a number as 50%?

The proper order of the game is one where 50% of the population never sees the second tier of raiding completed, because they are not good enough to finish the first.


Where do you get such a number as 50%?


It was around 10% in classic, 25% in bc and 100% in wrath. The balance between bc and wrath is where they want to be, I would assume.

In BC raiding was vastly overshadowed by arenas. In classic, most people couldn't enter raiding with the huge overhead of a 40 man guild. In cataclysm, the overhead is gone, and so are attunements : the limiter is the difficulty of bosses, almost solely.

So if the bosses are tuned so most people cant do them, they will be able to eventually (given more gear) so Id guess by the end of an expansion without overhead but with difficult encounters, the end number would be around 50% for the second tier, given 4 tiers per expansion.
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The mechanics are actually really, really good, IMO. Hell, some of the trash in BWD is a throwback to BWL bosses. The instances themselves look pretty nice, too.

Are we going to die after 20 seconds of a debuff after pulling 50k deeps? D:

But like a couple of people said, the raids are supposed to be really hard just getting into them, and I really hope they stay that way, hard raids = more fun. Getting that kill you wiped 100+ times on is well worth it :)
The proper order of the game is one where 50% of the population never sees the second tier of raiding completed, because they are not good enough to finish the first.

What the rest of your server's population do with their time has no impact on the enjoyment you get from your time played.
one question i was wondering is are the bosses gonna be a gated progression and be able to go straight to hard modes or are you gonna have to do like icc and defeat all the bosses before doing hardmodes?
I'm curious how they're going to offer varying levels of difficulty for the casuals to experience the loregasm each tier, particularly the final one. Now that the two formats are 'merged', we lost a difficulty level. If they play their cards right, then N10 should be as tough as N25, which means N10 becomes a lot harder than it used to be, which is definitely going to throw some people for a loop.

Do they intend to apply the Icecrown buff to every raid tier in order to slowly nerf everything, so everyone can see it? Wait X months into each tier, and nerf normal mode once the Hardcore have farmed it for long enough to make headway in heroic mode? Just make everything really hard forever and watch the casuals melt?

What's the plan exactly?

So long as the latest raid tier is hard out of the gate, and heroic modes are hard for the entire tier, then we'll be happy. They could quite easily nerf normal mode a few months into each tier without screwing around with our sense of achievement. So long as they give us enough time to learn it, farm it, and start work on Hardmodes, who gives a crap if it got nerfed so that some casuals can see the content? Not me.
Harder entry stuff will be most welcome. Hopefully not quite as hard as BC's initial push because those raids were rough for baddies like myself, and SSC trash was ugggggggggggggh on the super-fast respawn. Wotlk was way worse though, too hard is more fun than too easy.
one question i was wondering is are the bosses gonna be a gated progression and be able to go straight to hard modes or are you gonna have to do like icc and defeat all the bosses before doing hardmodes?


I'm fairly sure they're keeping the ICC method of unlocking hard modes, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, it just sucked for ICC because the fights barley changed.
I think what made it easy to skip into the next tiers in wotlk was essentially being able to do very fast and easy Heroics, so much so that doing the previous tier was detrimental in comparison.

If Heroics don't start providing the new type of points they release with each raid then I think people will definitely do the previous tier because it will be WAY slower to just do heroics, plus since heroics drop blues I'm sure they will want epics :P
I think what made it easy to skip into the next tiers in wotlk was essentially being able to do very fast and easy Heroics, so much so that doing the previous tier was detrimental in comparison.

If Heroics don't start providing the new type of points they release with each raid then I think people will definitely do the previous tier because it will be WAY slower to just do heroics, plus since heroics drop blues I'm sure they will want epics :P


We were clearing both Naxx 10 and 25 in full Sunwell gear immediately after we had the numbers to run it (think our first Naxx 25 clear was with like 16 people). Plus, like you say, the trivial Heroic spam allowed people to catch up with us incredibly fast, too. Neither of those really should have happened.

It seems they've learned enough from that period to ensure the hardcore and casual alike need to follow a proper path of progression before making their way into normal mode farming if they level up in greens/blues as they go, and such, but I wonder about the distance you can cover in a full set of ICC 277.
It seems they've learned enough from that period to ensure the hardcore and casual alike need to follow a proper path of progression before making their way into normal mode farming if they level up in greens/blues as they go, and such, but I wonder about the distance you can cover in a full set of ICC 277.


The guildies in the beta have pretty much all said we'll be replacing nearly everything in short order. I hope that's the case, simply for the health of the entry-content.

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