The good side of Mythic 20man

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Ehh believe me, people will find something else to fight about. Its what they do. Once they realize that mechanics are still tuned around flex and mythic, they will then blame that part of the game for killing the game and the community. Won't stop til they pull the plug. But it does make for some good bedtime reading.


Actually I'm excited for "yeah we didn't have (insert tank here), so we're better than you" threads.
We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.


Seems like a bad idea to me tbh... having the success of an encounter based around one person or class.. while I dislike the homogenization of classes, I thought Blizz was trying to get away from this sort of thing. The thing take irks me about the changes, is that you slowly forces us into the 10-man.... now, you're going to force us back into the 20... make up your damn minds. I loved 25, then I got accustomed to 10 and like it, I couldn't imagine going back to 25. Tens in my opinion are more quaint and social...

And Ninjablaze, grow up. The guy was obviously saying he can't find enough of a group of 10 people to even start to push 10H...
I was thinking about it last night, and there's a few things that concerns me. I don't know what the larger raid size experience is like. My first raid fight was Normal Ragnaros 10 man. I did fill in as a healer for a 25 man one night, but it was so different than 10 man healing.

I love the fact that in a 10 man, I never sit out on a fight. I don't get asked to sit. When I was looking for a guild, I wanted a group that had that same philosophy. If I had to sit, I'd want to sit out for an entire week so that I could raid with a different group and not have to worry.

So 25 mans, and probably 20 mans, are going to be a huge shell shock for me when someone decides my class sucks for a fight. I don't want to sit, and lord knows a fight where Ele shams can sit and AoE like Galakras doesn't have the loot that makes Ele Shams salivate. So for someone like me, the recruiting and rosters is already telling me that the 10 man experience I like is not going to be the same as the 20 man experience. The raid experience will be. If I'm allowed to see if before it becomes farm content.

I wonder how many people who started their WoW experience later will end up denied the experience because their apps won't have the kind of playing history other people do. I fear that I'd make a great bench application. Someone might think that my ranking on Paragons is low because I don't chain lightning spam to pad meters. I worry that this will do wonderfully to retain old die hards who have raided 20, 25, and 40 but push out newer players who are just getting excited about the game, but then learn that mystics are too hard and that their WoW playing should just trickle off or just PuG the new heroics.

It's a fear of the unknown. I have no idea what it will mean, how it will feel, and where I will fit in the paradigm. Ten mans are abundant and easy to find; they are easier to maintain. I'm gonna have to learn a whole new way of life in a larger environment. Maybe I'll find it fun, but I already know the first time I'm forced to sit for an encounter I'm going to be grumpy. Not playing = not fun for me.
11/13/2013 09:45 AMPosted by Psilocyn
Seems like a bad idea to me tbh... having the success of an encounter based around one person or class..


it was a bad idea for 10 mans, thats why they stopped it

thats why they're bringing it back in 20 man

and it really does make that 1 player feel like a special snowflake (in a good way), unless they mess up their job.
i'd like to know how you guys are planning to design fights, to encourage people to bring melee.

noone EVER says "we're too ranged heavy".

so yeah, lets see some melee incentive, as they are already avoided like the plague. the fact that too many ranged is ideal, and too many melee handicaps your raid, shows that fight design is severely lacking, as far as mechanics go.

with heroic going from 25 to 20, or 10 to 20, the desired dps slots will almost all be ranged. that's something that needs to change a little bit.

or you could just tell us all to play warlocks, that's ok too.
or you could just tell us all to play warlocks, that's ok too.


It might be good to have a holy priest in that comp - but just 1
I was thinking about it last night, and there's a few things that concerns me. I don't know what the larger raid size experience is like. My first raid fight was Normal Ragnaros 10 man. I did fill in as a healer for a 25 man one night, but it was so different than 10 man healing.

I love the fact that in a 10 man, I never sit out on a fight. I don't get asked to sit. When I was looking for a guild, I wanted a group that had that same philosophy. If I had to sit, I'd want to sit out for an entire week so that I could raid with a different group and not have to worry.

So 25 mans, and probably 20 mans, are going to be a huge shell shock for me when someone decides my class sucks for a fight. I don't want to sit, and lord knows a fight where Ele shams can sit and AoE like Galakras doesn't have the loot that makes Ele Shams salivate. So for someone like me, the recruiting and rosters is already telling me that the 10 man experience I like is not going to be the same as the 20 man experience. The raid experience will be. If I'm allowed to see if before it becomes farm content.

I wonder how many people who started their WoW experience later will end up denied the experience because their apps won't have the kind of playing history other people do. I fear that I'd make a great bench application. Someone might think that my ranking on Paragons is low because I don't chain lightning spam to pad meters. I worry that this will do wonderfully to retain old die hards who have raided 20, 25, and 40 but push out newer players who are just getting excited about the game, but then learn that mystics are too hard and that their WoW playing should just trickle off or just PuG the new heroics.

It's a fear of the unknown. I have no idea what it will mean, how it will feel, and where I will fit in the paradigm. Ten mans are abundant and easy to find; they are easier to maintain. I'm gonna have to learn a whole new way of life in a larger environment. Maybe I'll find it fun, but I already know the first time I'm forced to sit for an encounter I'm going to be grumpy. Not playing = not fun for me.


Lol, who cares about loot except for using it to kill bosses easier and mog gear?

And, worrying about sitting? As long as you are good and Blizzard doesn't royally screw up class balance (will be easier tuning for 1 raid size) you aren't going to sit on every fight due to class.
i'd like to know how you guys are planning to design fights, to encourage people to bring melee.

noone EVER says "we're too ranged heavy".

so yeah, lets see some melee incentive, as they are already avoided like the plague. the fact that too many ranged is ideal, and too many melee handicaps your raid, shows that fight design is severely lacking, as far as mechanics go.

with heroic going from 25 to 20, or 10 to 20, the desired dps slots will almost all be ranged. that's something that needs to change a little bit.

or you could just tell us all to play warlocks, that's ok too.

this has almost nothing to do with fight design and everything to do with class design and class balance, so it's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Also, for some of you, I think you'll really enjoy how healthy competition builds friendships. We run 5 mages, 3 hunters, 3 locks. Its quite enjoyable to bounce ideas off each other. So easy to compare what you are doing wrong. One of our hunters beats me? Lets me see what I can do better.

We have a Mage channel where they discuss which specs to play on each fight. You just don't get that in 10m.
Also, for some of you, I think you'll really enjoy how healthy competition builds friendships


Definitely true. Hopefully they make healing better, all i really care about at the end of the day. I found 25 man healing boring. 10 man healing just seemed a bit tougher to me. Hopefully they don't stink up healer balance going forward, though with their track record, i am not to optomistic.
Lol, who cares about loot except for using it to kill bosses easier and mog gear?


Lolwut? The whole point of loot is for progression... he was simply pointing out that a fight that has an excellent reason to bring an Ele shaman, doesn't have good loot for them, made perfect sense to me.

I would like to know how the whole loot system in "Heroic" is going to work considering it's now based on the flex system. Most HM guilds are going to bring at least 20 people, obviously their core "Mythic" group, otherwise they will be missing out on gear. But like current flex, if you go over that one person, they difficulty goes up. So is it going to be worth it to say bring one or two less people to where it's less people fighting for loot, but the same amount of loot that drops.

I also don't get the new naming and why normal was made to flex structure. Flex is great, it served its purpose. Why make normal modes the same structure, I don't understand. The same issue with the loot I mentioned above is going to happen with "Heroic." Unless you figure out how to perfectly tune the encounters PER PLAYER, then there will be issues as to difficulty vs number of players.

Here's how it should go: Do away with LFR; make Flex with the option to have a queue like LFR; if you really want this 20 crap: 20 Normal, 20 Heroic. Done.

Personally, I say bring back the original HM where you have to complete a feat or do something within the encounter that makes it harder and gets you the heroic loot. That was much more interesting and fun and why Ulduar is still one of my favorites.
@Lore: Not all of us are comfortable in such a large group. 20 is a lot of people and it means a loss of the intimacy of a 10-man group. It's a completely different dynamic, especially for existing groups which need to add an equally large group to their roster.

I know I haven't Heroic raided in MoP. Heck, I quit for a while this expac (which I neither regret nor do I regret returning when I did). But I did heroic raiding back in Cata and it was an absolute blast. Heroic Alysrazor still stands out as my absolute favorite encounter, ever. The normal encounter doesn't compare, at all.

I'd love to play at that level again. But I'm not at all comfortable with a group that large. And the thing is, I know at least 4 other people from the group I'm currently a backup for (their current lack of progression has to do with attendance issues, hence why I've got a fair number of normal kills) feel the same way. It's not that I dislike the people in my guild, I love them, this is an awesome guild. And I've known many of them for far longer than I've currently been guilded with them. These are people I know and I like. 20 is still just far too many. I find I withdraw in 25 man groups, I don't speak up as much, I don't feel as connected to the team or to my guild/community in a situation like that. It's not remotely an enjoyable experience.

And I don't want to end up at a point where I'm killing the new "heroic" mode which is current normal, it's on farm and it's all killing the same encounters for 2-6 months at the end of patches, with nothing else to look forward to for progression. This group I'm a backup for will kill Garrosh this week. They're going to move on to heroic encounters, even if they don't end up downing H Garrosh before the expac. How long do we have until the expac at this point? That would be a rather long time farming the same normal encounters. And it's not quite the same thing as it is to have Heroic on farm for months, where that's the highest tier available. It's knowing there's another difficulty level out there and you could be tackling it.

If 10 has to go, and I understand that for design reasons it likely does need to, please give more consideration to 15.
I started this expansion in 10 mans. SoO was the first time I transitioned into 25man raiding/guild/heroics. It is a much much better experience in my opinion. All of you dedicated 10 man raiders should give it a try it is awesome.
Seeing a lot of debate about the number 20. Let me take a stab at clearing up a few things:

We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design. One of the biggest issues we're currently facing with 10-player Heroic raiding is that of raid composition. It's impossible for every group to have every class, and often that means they're lacking in certain tools, which in turn means that we can't design encounters around those tools (or if we do, it becomes extremely frustrating for the 10-player Heroic guild that suddenly needs a Paladin for Hand of Protection).

We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.

We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.

I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.

As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.


For EVERYONE? You seriously just said that. You're bending over backwards to appease heroic progression guilds and all the reasons you stated are so you can spend resources making raids for 5500 or so guilds...

And you're trying to tell even those people that you're doing it to make things better for them when you're really just trying to make things easier on the development side...

Give us all a break with the BS
15-man will never happen, it has all the same problems as 10-man and would literally only exist to appease 10-mans, which is not the goal of a design decision that essentially admits that 10-mans were a mistake.
I'm excited for 20 man raiding. We'll have 5 extra subs, we'll have better designed content.
And we dont have to hear 10 man's cry, cause they wont exist.
Just recruit, we did and constantly are recruiting.
For EVERYONE? You seriously just said that. You're bending over backwards to appease heroic progression guilds and all the reasons you stated are so you can spend resources making raids for 5500 or so guilds...


They've tried balancing the game for the "majority" and lost almost 8 million subs from it.

now they'll go back to tuning Heroic content (the actual heroic, not the flex normal mode timmy gets a trophy for being water boy mode) for heroic raiders, and not trying to force people into it.
As someone with leadership experience in 40, 25, and 10 man guilds, I think this is a great idea and am looking forward to it. The reason 25s are so hard to maintain is because of 10mans. Heck, the number of 10 man guilds make recruiting for 10s impossible. Maybe I am just overly optimistic, but I think one guild size is the best option. And yes, I am in a 10 right now and have been since mid-Cata, with 25s before that. Guilds will break up and provide people to fill in the 10s that don't. It will be easier than you all make it out to be, I think. Change happens in this game. All of you BC+ folks who tell us to take off our rose-colored Vanilla glasses regarding 40 mans...well, now you know how it is. And maybe you can try to see the reasoning behind the changes.

My best memories in raiding were those special things your class had to do to make a fight work. I miss comraderie of my fellow classmates. I can't wait. Wish I had a release date so I could start planning...but I'll be patient.
@Lore
I don't buy the whole "We want to promote making friends" logic. By forcing existing 10 man guilds to move to a 20 man roster you are effectively breaking up for friendships than you are creating.

Its not reasonable to first expect majority of heroic guilds (10 mans are the majority) to double in size. Its not reasonable to assume that everyone in existing 10 man are going to have computers able to handle 20 man raids. Its not reasonable to assume that existing guild leaders have the time or ability to manage 20 people instead of 10.

The only answer I am hearing from Blizzard is that they messed up in making 10 Man heroics then making Loot from 25 man = 10 man effectively killing off 25 man. (Your community told you that would happen btw and apparently you didn't listen) And now that you have realize your mistakes we have to pay the price in losing our Guilds, our friends, and content.

Finally as a software developer myself I an understand the strain the poor choices the designers have made in the past have put on the currently process. To that end I can see it being reasonable to move to this platform if you concede to making it 15 man instead of 20. I have yet to see a good agrument as to why 15 wouldn't be better. Yes 25 mans have to drop 10 players. But the impact is much less to all guilds as a whole and it gives a much better chance that existing 10 man guilds will survive.

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