It's called flex for a reason...

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I've led Flex a few times, and don't have a set number I go with (other than a good ratio of healers). If I can grab an extra tank I'll do so and get one to go DPS, and 3-tank some fights (Naz, Shammies, and Garrosh).

I have left groups when they refused to let me bring a friend or guildie because they wanted to keep the group at 10 or 14, but unless I have a specific person who wants to come, it's not worth making a fuss over.

There *is* a breakpoint when you hit 15 for mechanics on a few specific fights: one more pool to soak on Malk, one more prison on Sha, etc. At 19, you get another intermission phase on Garrosh. For Siege, there isn't a jump in mechanics, but if you go above 16 or so a lot of tanks can't quite solo their add, and you need a range to switch and help out, and you usually need 2 rather than 1 person on belt (depending on their DPS, I've had a few groups that were still able to solo belt at 20-25 people). As long as everyone is doing well, the additional DPS tends to make up for it, but you do have to switch up the strat slightly sometimes.
I have never used a limit (other than 25 ofc) for flex nor have I ever not completed a flex run. If you want to min/max flex (and I'm not even really sure why you would) take as many of the best players you can, regardless of what that number is.
11/19/2013 07:18 AMPosted by Candescently
At 19, you get another intermission phase on Garrosh.


how is this possible when garrosh's intermissions are based upon your DPS?
2 - 3 - 5 OR 2 - 2 - 6
2 - 4 - 8 OR 2 - 3 - 9
2 - 5 - 12 OR 2 - 4 - 13
2 - 6 - 17 OR 2 - 5 - 18

5/10 OR 6/10
8/14 OR 9/14
12/19 OR 13/19
17/25 OR 18/25

50% OR 60%
53.5% OR 64.3%
63.2% OR 68.4%
68% OR 72%

Raidcomps -> Ratio of DPS to rest of raid -> Percentage of raid comp

I'm not sure exactly what proportions the boss's health goes up at each breakpoint, but having more people at the same level should result in a smoother run. The only reason you should run fewer than 25 people is for mechanically complicated fights that people refuse to properly follow directions for or any DPS check where people simply aren't pulling their weight.
Boss and add health does not increase at "breakpoints." It literally increases for every player you add to the raid past 10 players (and this is very easy to test).

Blizzard also stated sometime back shortly after the patch release that the boss and add health actually scale slower than what an appropriately-geared, competent player brings to the raid. This supports the numerous anecdotes that 25-man Flex is, in fact, the easiest way to do it.
25 man flex is absolute faceroll. More than any other number is.

Perfect design.

People are just idiots.
I wish blizzard would deliberately make 14 man groups harder just to do away with this "14 is the easiest" myth.

just for a week or two.


Can't fix stupid, like I said, I saw no difference between 10 and 17-man Sha, or any other boss frankly, but people say it happens at 14/15.

11/19/2013 07:18 AMPosted by Candescently
At 19, you get another intermission phase on Garrosh.


Shows you've never paid attention to the fight, it's entirely based upon your DPS, like us, we only get one realm phase in 10-man due to our DPS.
Hell, if I wasn't doing progression and avoiding burn-out like the plague, I'd run 25-man Flex groups just because it guarantees you have at least some number of competent DPS. Not going to until Garrosh is dead though, 'cuz the Legendary grind just makes alts miserable.
I'm more amazed that people still don't understand there are multiple breakpoints, not just at 14.


And some break points aren't even at 14. Try explaining that you get three orbs and not just two at 14 for Norushen and people still don't believe you. Why can't anyone see that back orb?
The easiest way to do flex is with 25. More room to make up for bad and the mechanics do not scale remotely as wildly as your average flex leader thinks.
The easiest way to do flex is with 25. More room to make up for bad and the mechanics do not scale remotely as wildly as your average flex leader thinks.


I think it's less this and more the fact that pug "leaders" using oQueue don't believe that Blizzard could possibly make a real scaling system for the raid. This is proven by the perpetuated myth that 15 players "makes it a 25-man raid." Honestly, the stupidity of some people amazes me.
. At 19, you get another intermission phase on Garrosh.


can't fix stupid all right.
some people are starting to catch on, i've seen a few 25 man flex runs forming.

while normal is a different beast entirely (need more coordination), in flex things are actually easier with more people.
The mindset surrounding SoO, and the current incarnation of Flex is set in stone. Nothing we can do about it. The "14 or bust" people aren't going to magically wake up tomorrow and change. Just the way it is...

Blizz has stated, several times now, that WoD will have updated scaling and difficulty for Flex. That is pretty much the only thing that might, and I say might, break this tired mindset and free groups up to run more than 14 without some boogeyman of difficulty scaring them. SoO Flex is doomed to many 14 groups, at least until everyone in the group is in normal/heroic gear 2 months from now. There is still hope for WoD, because expaks tend to have the power to shake out old, bad habits.
Is this mostly an oqueue thing? When I search for flex raids on openraid, there's usually only a few that state a number limit. I guess some of the others might have only taken 14... can't easily tell.
Look at the bright side: If the leader refuses to go until he gets 14 and refuses to take any more than 14, it's a clear signal that the leader's an idiot and the raid will likely suffer from his idiocy.

Even though I don't need gear I still run flex occasionally when I'm testing a new spec or new gear setup. I know to avoid the "14 only" raids.
11/18/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Au
The blizzcon panels addressed this. They are eliminating breakpoints by using randomization.


That comes next expac.
Is this mostly an oqueue thing? When I search for flex raids on openraid, there's usually only a few that state a number limit. I guess some of the others might have only taken 14... can't easily tell.


Not really. Open Raid doesn't require you to put a number on there. So I see plenty of raids with 40 people signed up and 12 approved (because they have 2 tanks from guild) or things like that.
Boss and add health does not increase at "breakpoints." It literally increases for every player you add to the raid past 10 players (and this is very easy to test).

Blizzard also stated sometime back shortly after the patch release that the boss and add health actually scale slower than what an appropriately-geared, competent player brings to the raid. This supports the numerous anecdotes that 25-man Flex is, in fact, the easiest way to do it.


Competent player is also somethin that honestly gets over interpreted as well. Competent does not mean they need to be able to pull normal level raider dps/healin in order to down the content. Take the average normal mode parse for a fight. If you're within 10-20% (made up numbers on my part) of that number, you've got more than enough to be in a flex run.

In fact, honestly its pretty easy to carry a full 25 flex run if you just have a good foundation of about 6-7 dps and 2-3 good healers with plenty of room for error on all sides.
Why do 550+ ilvl people que for flex anyways, are you that bored? Stop taking spots of people that need it. Disgusting example of the selfishness that is the WoW player base.

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