Quality of "whose" life?

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When I start seeing the hardcore progression "Mythic" raiders complaining the game is too simplistic, then I'll start to worry about it.
11/19/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
You will also find that one button that does it all......isn't so fun either.


Tooooootally agree, which is kind of what hit/expertise caps were. You either hit them or you didn't. Binary on/off buttons aren't so fun - depends how shiny the button is though I suppose.

You imply other systems in the game are the same though, to which are you referring?


I fear you are going to run into a bigger problem. Many of the things you are talking about are just time sinks. Things to keep the players busy between updates. You already got bit when you introduced flying which made the world super small. Which in turn means that players will demand more content at a quicker pace. Other systems......talent tree. Doesn't matter what you choose really it won't do much to the game. It also took away fun for those who enjoyed trying to make a new build. It was another time sink to keep players busy
When you walk into a zone or log in after an event, you automatically get a quest.Can chain quest without going to the quest giver, it just pops up in a window.

That happened back in classic too.


I dont recall any quests doing this in vanilla, I thought the auto-quest was a feature they added in a recent xpac.
I'm looking at the reaction from individuals as perhaps a worry that Blizzard will go the Bioware route with gear/gems/enchants.

In Dragon Age 1, customization was rampant, your party was your's to command as far as gear/skills went and it lent itself to a great deal of choices and depth.

But that depth vanished as far as gear went in Dragon Age 2. Your followers all had the same gear as when they joined you and you could change their weapon.

I think some members of the community, myself included, are worried that the gear/enchant/gem reductions are going to cause TOO much of the Dragon Age 2 situation, where everyone looks the same if they're a Shaman or a Warrior. Same exact pieces of gear, same enchants (As recent expansions haven't really had a large amount of choice for enchants, there has been a primary stat to weapon enchant that wins out dramatically), and same gems.

All I am looking for is a confirmation that there will be more choices for some of this customization, not less, now that armor is getting broken down into type(plate, etc)/secondary stat/tertiary stat (Random chance).
11/19/2013 03:28 PMPosted by Acme


Tooooootally agree, which is kind of what hit/expertise caps were. You either hit them or you didn't. Binary on/off buttons aren't so fun - depends how shiny the button is though I suppose.

You imply other systems in the game are the same though, to which are you referring?


I fear you are going to run into a bigger problem. Many of the things you are talking about are just time sinks. Things to keep the players busy between updates. You already got bit when you introduced flying which made the world super small. Which in turn means that players will demand more content at a quicker pace. Other systems......talent tree. Doesn't matter what you choose really it won't do much to the game. It also took away fun for those who enjoyed trying to make a new build. It was another time sink to keep players busy


A very small and minor time sink.
It's a difficult conversation to come to any consensus on because different people always find different things fun. It's all rather subjective. I don't recommend anyone try to convince anyone else that they're wrong in what they understand to be fun for them. That's a waste of precious bodily fluids. However, our goal has always been and I believe always will be to create a fun and engaging game that is free from tediousness and complexities for the sake of tediousness and complexities. Easy to learn, difficult to master is our motto.

Depth and complexity of systems don't need to come from the number of buttons to click, innumerable steps to take to complete mundane tasks, or obscurity of how to go about them. Certainly decrypting game systems can be fun sometimes, but as a company we embrace a style of game that is very approachable with systems that are simple to understand on the surface but that hold a lot of genuine gameplay depth. That was true the day World of Warcraft was released, and we strive to ensure that remains true even with the addition of dozens of new systems over the years. As time marches on and we implement our latest and greatest ideas, they don't always keep pace with that design intent, and sometimes we have to make difficult decisions.


Have you considered using Reforging just for Tertiary stats? At least that way it really is about fun and preference. Granted, it won't have a huge amount of use, but it might be more interesting than ripping it out of the game entirely.

I'm all for taking it out for secondary stats. I'm sick of paying stupid amounts of gold to pour stats into something or other because a mod, guide, or simulator told me to. Removing Hit and Expertise solves a lot of this. Still, since Tertiary stats are more about fun and their impact would be minor, where is the harm in keeping it in for that?
Removing the Reforge guy doesn't make any sense and actually hurts gearing up instead of helping. It doesn't help "quality of life" in the slightest because currently when an item drops you can actually debate in your head "Hey if i just reforge this into this I could benefit from this", instead of what it use to be, "It has no haste/crit, DE it". In TBC and Wrath the majority of gear that dropped in the next tier I passed on because it didn't have the stats I wanted. Even though it was a ilvl bonus and probably a dps boost, if it didn't have haste or crit or a specific stat I was aiming for it got DEed which meant a lot more loot waste on our runs.

Since Cata and the reforge vendor I now look at gear differently, I can now see how every piece of gear could fit even if it doesn't have the stats I wanted. I can just reforge it to make it work (need more haste? need more crit? etc). Now that your removing the reforge vendor I can see myself passing on a lot of gear just because I don't want to lose the desired haste or crit or mastery markers.
quality of life changes? whose life, ours, or the devs?

why take gems, and reforging away? is it for our benefit? it isn't for my benefit as a healer.
is the new "grind" going to be chasing the gear you really want/need in a timeless isle format? or, are the characters going to be even more simplistic, that it won't even matter. we already lost control of our mana pools, what's next. everyone will have the same mana regen?


Gems aren't going anywhere so they don't kill an entire profession. I still find jewelcrafting a good way of offering some customization and making your character feel slightly more powerful. We just aren't gonna have to gem a lot of sockets because of the stat squish.

Reforging on the other hand is nothing more than an artificial gold sink. So you're telling me it is fun that everytime you get a new piece of gear you have to reforge several pieces of gear in order to use that one new piece of gear? This is all in the name of being hit and expertise capped right? I'm glad those 2 stats are going bye bye and now we don't need reforging anymore either. Maybe they'll turn that reforge guy on the mount into a transmog guy or something?
11/19/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Deathlicious
So, you're gonna stack strength just to be different from other elemental next to you?


Kind of the interesting crux of a lot of these conversations is illusion of customization vs. actual customization vs. efficiency, and how all of those interplay.

If someone liked spending all of their talent points in the old system in strange ways and ended up being extremely sub-optimal, but felt better about their individuality and choices and therefore found that system more "fun", were they wrong? What should the efficiency gap be, and how should we as designers and game creators ensure looking up a guide vs. not looking up a guide isn't the difference between a playable game and an impossible one? If that player who enjoyed their custom build and choices saw they performed far below everyone else would they understand it was due to their choices, or would they feel like the game was being unfair to them?

All interesting topics.
i don't care what fanatics think, and neither should blizz. Blizzard could lose ever hardcore progressive raider out there, and barely make a dent in their current profit margins. now let them lose mr. average, and they will be folding their tents. that's what they need to realize.
Tooooootally agree, which is kind of what hit/expertise caps were. You either hit them or you didn't. Binary on/off buttons aren't so fun. You imply other systems in the game are the same though, to which are you referring?


What's fun and what's not is totally subjective. Hit has been an element of the game since the beginning... it took you folks 9 years to realize it's not good? Forever beta, that's what this game feels like. Every expansion you guys feel the need to muck with core game play elements. For once I'd love to just be able to start a new expansion without having to figure out how to play all over. Just jump into new content and features.

Gemming, enchanting, reforging, etc, these are all feel good things you do when you get a piece of loot. I personally love that feeling of getting a piece of loot, and then looking it over and min/maxing the item. If you don't like the element, why are you playing an RPG. Go play Minecraft and build a mud hut. I just don't get the mentality here, where stripping away things that give you that feeling of individuality is a good thing. Even if it is adding complex steps that some feel is unnecessary. Pretty much everything in this game can be viewed as unnecessary or complex, and be argued why it should be changed. Bag space, why do we have it? It's annoying, just give us an infinite bag. Health... why do we need varying levels of health pools, just let everyone have the same health. Mounts, why do we need 400 different mounts? Let's remove them all and just have 1, it's just a means of getting from point A to point B. /sarcasm.

Anyhow. Whatever, feeling less and less interested in WoD as more of these kind of tidbits come out.
Removing the Reforge guy doesn't make any sense and actually hurts gearing up instead of helping. It doesn't help "quality of life" in the slightest because currently when an item drops you can actually debate in your head "Hey if i just reforge this into this I could benefit from this", instead of "It has no haste/crit, DE it". In TBC and Wrath the majority of gear that dropped in the next tier I passed on because it didn't have the stats I wanted. Even though it was a ilvl bonus, if it didn't have haste or crit or a specific stat I was aiming for it got DEed which ment a lot more loot waste on our runs.

Since Cata and the reforge vendor I now look at gear differently, I can now see how every piece of gear could fit even if it doesn't have the stats I desire I can reforge it to make it work (need more haste? need more crit? etc).

Now that your removing the reforge vendor I can see myself passing on a lot of gear just because I don't want to lose the desired haste or crit or mastery markers.


Sure it might of been that way but it would of been better if Reforging was called Mathreforging.
I don't see why they are removing both hit/expertise and reforging without hit/expertise reforging would be pretty fun since I could try out several different stat build on some characters for example I could try a straight mastery build on my lock or try a haste build without reforging and with the new way gear is changing depending on your spec that option is being removed in the end reducing the number of playstyle option people have

I like haste builds on my lock if blizzard decides that mastery is the best for locks and makes all my gear have mastery on it rather than haste I will be forced to change my playstyle based on what blizzard feels is the best stat weights (which I don't trust them to do perfectly especially since stat weights can change based on your gear level)

I get trying to simplify it so I don't need an addon to optimize my reforges but outright removing customization options is lame

in WOD there will be very little difference between 2 characters in the same ilvl gear and no option to change that besides the pitiful amount of stats gems give
The need for reforging came about because the developers who worked on character stats and abilities did not communicate so well with the developers in control of stats on items. Either get your developers working together in a good positive way (which I think is impossible) or leave reforging. I suggest leave reforging alone.

So to simplify...bad development plus bad development equals need for reforging. Removing the ability to reforge will just put us back to where it was before. Great idea Blizzard...GREAT IDEA!!
Removing the Reforge guy doesn't make any sense and actually hurts gearing up instead of helping. It doesn't help "quality of life" in the slightest because currently when an item drops you can actually debate in your head "Hey if i just reforge this into this I could benefit from this", instead of what it use to be, "It has no haste/crit, DE it". In TBC and Wrath the majority of gear that dropped in the next tier I passed on because it didn't have the stats I wanted. Even though it was a ilvl bonus and probably a dps boost, if it didn't have haste or crit or a specific stat I was aiming for it got DEed which meant a lot more loot waste on our runs.

Since Cata and the reforge vendor I now look at gear differently, I can now see how every piece of gear could fit even if it doesn't have the stats I desire I can reforge it to make it work (need more haste? need more crit? etc).

Now that your removing the reforge vendor I can see myself passing on a lot of gear just because I don't want to lose the desired haste or crit or mastery markers.


my impression is that reforging is actually interesting for healers.

for everyone else, it's just a time/gold sink.

get new gear, enchant, equip, logout, refresh Ask Mr Robot, reforge half your gear just because of this one upgrade, logout, refresh Ask Mr Robot, confirm that you don't need to reforge anything else now, repeat.

"great, I got a new weapon! .... ugh, now I have to reforge 8 pieces of my gear because the weapon has +hit on it and it pushes me over the cap."
Tertiary stats are supposed to be fairly rare. I'm not sure exactly how this suggestion would work.


"I don't really want Lifesteal, I'd rather have a bit of Cleave instead."

Rare or not, it gives a bit of customization in what is supposed to be a little perk to your gear. It isn't as though they would need to create a system from scratch to get it to work, where the suggestion would be a bit absurd. But if they've got most of the code in place for this, why not just change it to fit a new niche?
Removing the Reforge guy doesn't make any sense and actually hurts gearing up instead of helping. It doesn't help "quality of life" in the slightest because currently when an item drops you can actually debate in your head "Hey if i just reforge this into this I could benefit from this", instead of what it use to be, "It has no haste/crit, DE it". In TBC and Wrath the majority of gear that dropped in the next tier I passed on because it didn't have the stats I wanted. Even though it was a ilvl bonus and probably a dps boost, if it didn't have haste or crit or a specific stat I was aiming for it got DEed which meant a lot more loot waste on our runs.

Since Cata and the reforge vendor I now look at gear differently, I can now see how every piece of gear could fit even if it doesn't have the stats I desire I can reforge it to make it work (need more haste? need more crit? etc).

Now that your removing the reforge vendor I can see myself passing on a lot of gear just because I don't want to lose the desired haste or crit or mastery markers.


my impression is that reforging is actually interesting for healers.

for everyone else, it's just a time/gold sink.

get new gear, enchant, equip, logout, refresh Ask Mr Robot, reforge half your gear just because of this one upgrade, logout, refresh Ask Mr Robot, confirm that you don't need to reforge anything else now, repeat.

"great, I got a new weapon! .... ugh, now I have to reforge 8 pieces of my gear because the weapon has +hit on it and it pushes me over the cap."


The reason its like that now is because of the hit/exp caps, also the haste breakpoints. With exp/hit gone and Blizzard saying they will devalue (if not remove) haste breakpoints reforging won't be mathy or require mods at all.

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