Moonkins in Cataclysm: PvP issues and fixes

Druid
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I have heard the same things that you are saying reported by other druids in beta.

They're not going to implement the ideas that you suggested however. They're way too radical, especially this close to release. At this point, it's tweaks.

-- I hear terrible things about our mana for PVP in beta.

It's tied to Eclipse, so the mechanical problems with getting to Eclipse really hurt here. The band-aid buff to Innervate just leaves us insanely vulnerable to dispels. If they were going to just rely on Innervate, they should have lowered the cool down instead of just buffing the amount of mana it returns. so the consequences of a dispel would not be so great. Tweak: Dreamstate decreases cooldown of Innervate instead of buffing its size.

-- I have not heard any feedback on if the PVP set bonus is helping us get to Eclipse in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm skeptical given the relatively small energy gains per proc, but it would be great to hear some details.

-- I also hear terrible things about the size of our heals.

I think people are not giving the new Frenzied Regeneration enough credit as an "oh %**#" button in situations where you will have a healer. It's definitely an improved ability. The addition of Skull Bash also adds at least a little bit of utility in Bear Form when you are getting trained.

But with that said, instant roots is not going to be enough help in survivability unless our heals are decent or they do something else. I suspect it has to be something else. I doubt they would ever consider changing the heals as drastically as you are describing, and certainly not right on the verge of release! And they probably will not even change the coefficients to increase the raw power (even though that would equalize our off-healing with other similar hybrid DPS specs) unless Resto is also hurting in both PVE and PVP, and I have not heard that! This is one of the core problems of the spec. They have not given themselves a good lever to tweak so that they can improve our PVP HoT-based survivability without impacting Resto healing. I suspect they don't want deep Balance talents that improve self-healing, just because it may confuse people.

Personally, what I would most want to see to improve our survivability is just a little bit more raw mitigation in Moonkin form (for example, Perseverance has an enhanced effect in Moonkin form), or perhaps make the Barkskin glyph effect both melee and spell crits. Or best of all: Make Owlkin Frenzy reduce the damage we take by 10%, not increase the damage we do by 10%.

-- Dispel protection seems like a major problem.

A simple mana return on dispels of our HoTs and DoTs would be a nice solution, and different from UA and the psychic horror protection they gave to warlocks / shadow priests.

Edit: A variant of your suggestion about fixing Eclipse with shorter cast times for Starfire. Assuming they don't change Owlkin Frenzy to a real defensive cooldown, what if Owlkin Frenzy reduced the cast time on Starfire to 2 seconds instead of increasing our overall damage by 10%?
lol, "Moon Walk."
Resto is actually hurting quite a bit - and it's not just because of offensive dispels. Fact is - unlike most classes our fast cast isn't something you spam - it has a 6second hot. It makes zero sense. The radical heal changes are just that - but are not unwarranted, and would help all the specs greatly. If you watch some videos (links at the bottom), you'll notice that they really have no way to catch back up on healing. Regrowth isn't close to enough healing, compared to the 12-15k flash heal other classes can throw out.

Tweaks aren't going to cut it - we're in need of somewhat major but genuine changes for all specs on some issues and some moonkin specific issues that haven't been addressed since ever. Shadow priests were given fixes via Psychic Horror and Dispersion - so why can't we?

Resto druid in beta PvP (losses):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3-L9XZBlk&hd=1
Watch closely at about 45sec in as regrowth spam (in TREE FORM nonetheless) does an amazing job at not getting the DK up at all really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_zbPlb1pjU&hd=1.
Dispels into chain CCs.

No, these aren't me, but they give a great look at how resto druids are affected by both dispels and how our heals are fairly gimp, especially when we don't have swiftmend/tree.

lol, "Moon Walk."

=D

I've been stacking haste anywhere and everywhere I can think of and I'm REALLY enjoying moonkin. I've found that I can easily get away/hot, insta-root, and get starfires off when I get lunar eclipse. I think that boomkins will be very competitive in arenas and rated BGs with the utility of roots+solar beam as well as the "desecrate" effect we will get with our mushrooms. I find that I can get away fairly easy with either bear bash>travelform>roots or Warstomp>travelform>roots or even throw in a cyclone if I need to catch up on heals. The only classes that I cannot beat consistantly are frost mages and shadow priests. If you dont kill a frost mage before his 2nd stun, you can die within it and a spriest can dispel most of your dots and keep up pressure without hardly trying.
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP
While I don't actively PVP



Then why the hell are you posting in a thread titled "PvP issues and fixes".

You basically say, "Hey, all you guys are newbs, l2p your druid and maybe you wouldn't suck. I mean, I don't know because I don't PvP, but still, l2p!"

People posting their experiences should be specific about whether they are talking about level 80 or level 85. We are completely fine and strong at level 80 because our mana is good, a single regrowth get us 1/4th our health bar, battles are short enough that the long cool down on Solar Beam does not come into play, and our moonfire spam can kill people with 30K health.

We need level 85 specific info in this thread!

Edit: It also would not hurt to give us an idea of your experience level. Do you have 500 HKs? or 50,000? Are you playing with a premade team, or is it just random BG teams?


I've been stacking haste anywhere and everywhere I can think of and I'm REALLY enjoying moonkin. I've found that I can easily get away/hot, insta-root, and get starfires off when I get lunar eclipse. I think that boomkins will be very competitive in arenas and rated BGs with the utility of roots+solar beam as well as the "desecrate" effect we will get with our mushrooms. I find that I can get away fairly easy with either bear bash>travelform>roots or Warstomp>travelform>roots or even throw in a cyclone if I need to catch up on heals. The only classes that I cannot beat consistantly are frost mages and shadow priests. If you dont kill a frost mage before his 2nd stun, you can die within it and a spriest can dispel most of your dots and keep up pressure without hardly trying.
First off, 80 is lol. This patch I can heal as well as a resto druid while doing 12k crits in pvp with 5k sunfire spams.

This isn't real, not to mention is zero indication of how we do in rated arena or battlegrounds.


People posting their experiences should be specific about whether they are talking about level 80 or level 85. We are completely fine and strong at level 80 because our mana is good, a single regrowth get us 1/4th our health bar, battles are short enough that the long cool down on Solar Beam does not come into play, and our moonfire spam can kill people with 30K health.



We need level 85 specific info in this thread!



Edit: It also would not hurt to give us an idea of your experience level. Do you have 500 HKs? or 50,000? Are you playing with a premade team, or is it just random BG teams?

I don't think they really need to post their experience, just don't post if you haven't ever done arena or can't figure out that this is about cataclysm.

I'd add past 2k, but honestly some people can still give decent ideas without that.
making starfire the same as wrath, just a different school, doesn't sit roght with me. They're SUPPOSED to feel different, and making them the same would make the boomkin feel more . . . bland. However, the starfire IMMA CHARGIN MAH LAZER idea is golden. That would be awesome, and balanced too if they made the solar power gain scale with the cast time as well.
making starfire the same as wrath, just a different school, doesn't sit roght with me. They're SUPPOSED to feel different, and making them the same would make the boomkin feel more . . . bland. However, the starfire IMMA CHARGIN MAH LAZER idea is golden. That would be awesome, and balanced too if they made the solar power gain scale with the cast time as well.
Sadly, the spells haven't been different from eachother since wrath. In BC, moonkins were largely ignored as a spec, and starfire hit for ridiculous damage, especially once they changed the 4 set to 1.5sec off starfire (highest was 5.5k at a full vengeful warrior - which is roughly 50% of his HP. Add in a midair wrath and moonfire and needless to say he was derped hard for -12 rating).

Seems the only real attention we get is during the release of expansions, when they look at everyone.

Owlkin Frenzy: -10% to damage taken when it procs.

Starfire: Builds up to maximum strength. (How cool would that be?)

Mana: Innervate on a short cooldown, and generous when given to the Moonkin, even if small when given out to another character.

Please?
Owlkin Frenzy: -10% to damage taken when it procs.

Starfire: Builds up to maximum strength. (How cool would that be?)

Mana: Innervate on a short cooldown, and generous when given to the Moonkin, even if small when given out to another character.

Please?

I'd personally prefer simply to get mana on 3 parts of the eclipse spectrum (100--0--100). Assuming the fixes to allow a solar eclipse to be more feasible. It takes way too long currently, not to mention I'm forcing myself to ever choose starfire over wrath, including while in a lunar eclipse, in bgs because I want to get the quicker cast off while kiting/before interrupts get off CD.
Great thread that really highlights the core issues with Balance PvP.

As has already been echoed around this thread and others (including beta forums) over the last few days, there are several parts of the Balance Druid that would greatly improve the fun, choice and competitivity of the Moonkin were they to be given attention.

This is a very long post and I don't expect everyone to read it (but then I wouldn't expect you to respond to it unless you had).

---

This is only aimed at a PvP environment:
    - Eclipse : Primarily its difficulty to activate, but also tied up with the trouble had casting Starfire. The 4pc PvP set bonus helps, but isn't enough, imo.
    - Lack of passive defenses : notably a vulnerability to spell damage, but a below-par resistance to melee that is compounded by lack of active defense or escape options.
    - Lack of active defenses : as above, lacking both active and passive defense options leaves the Balance Druid with few options. The vulnerability one has while hard casting means that the Druid is better of spamming Moonfire so as to retain some semblance of control and flexibility.
    - Lack of options when trained : tied to the above points of a lack of active defense options. Balance Druids have few options when under attack by one opponent, and no options when assaulted by two or more. All Druid defensive measures are enemy-targeted (Roots/NG and Cyclone), but are far more effective as 'distance maintainers' rather than self-peels or distance creators.

    At lvl85 is also the question of Wild Mushroom viability, but this has been covered very well already on the Beta forums.


Much of this could be put down to melee being designed as offensive classes while casters are defensive; Charge/Death Grip/Stuns/Interrupts/CloS/AMS/Bladestorm/etc vs Blink/Roots/CC(Poly etc)/Iceblock/Cyclone/Travel Form/Demonic Teleport. Melee don't stop the offensive when under pressure where casters typically must fall back into defensive mode when under attack. A generalisation? Yes, as there are always exceptions.

This is of course debateable and isn't intended as a derail. I think this design is fine; however, the point I'll eventually get around to making is that the Balance Druid doesn't have defensive options when under pressure. Instead of anti-train and activated defenses, the Balance Druid loses offensive capabilities when being attacked, especially by melee. We cannot deal competative damage to a melee player while they are in melee range and they will easily out-dps us (we die unless we're able to be saved). We work at range, but melee is designed to prevent that.

The 'Moonwalk' concept is a great one. I've always envisioned it as a Faerie Dragon-esque 'Blink' (as per WarIII) where the Druid would take on the traits of the Faerie Dragon to disappear (or slip into the Dream) for ~3 secs. This would be our equivilant of a Mage's Blink, but with a unique Druid style.
So why does the Druid need this? And is it only Balance, or does Resto and Feral also 'need' this kind of reliable defensive option?

I don't have an answer for Resto/Feral, but to me the key boon from such an ability is that we suddenly have options as Balance. We have the choice to put ourselves in a vulnerable position with the knowledge that we do have a chance to make a play if things turn sour. It doesn't guarantee us invincibility, nor does it allow us to be careless. What it does do is allow us to not be countered so easily and force the enemy to work to actually take us down (rather than work on distracting our teammates from supporting us).

With the massive healing changes for Cataclysm, the Balance Druid suffers greatly. Our healing is no longer our crutch defensive option, and Balance Druids suffer here alongside Resto in PvP (due to offensive dispelling and lockdown vulnerabilities; as Bottleórum linked in post #63). Of course, this is more crippling to Resto, but it greatly changes the way we play as Balance without compromise too.

So the Moonkin has comparatively sub-par passive and active defenses. Even Ownkin Frenzy contradicts itself: we gain more offensive power in a situation where we have little-to-no option to be offensive.

If the Balance Druid is intended to be a glass cannon, then we need more options to escape and/or be actually able to deal our damage reliably and effectively. Moonfire spam as our primary PvP attack is not fun nor challenging for either the Moonkin or the enemy.

If the Balance Druid is intended to be a damage sponge, then we need greater passive defenses and activated defensive moves. We do NOT need any more ways to control the enemy. We need ways to control ourselves, imo.

The issues with the Balance Druid in PvP will not be cured by getting more resilience. We need the ability of choice so that we are better able to control how we play in PvP and we need the spec's mechanics to work effectively in PvP (including Eclipse).

As is, we are a half-caste with:
- mediocre healing (and only so when we are not under pressure).
- a Moonfire spam and Insect Swarm -reliant spec. (BG damage parses clearly show the lack of Wrath/Starfire use)
- an easily trained spec that has no active defense option

My random 2 cents on a Starfire reiteration:

    Starfire
    2.0 sec cast
    Blasts the target with energy, dealing 987 to 1229 Arcane damage. Each time you cast Starfire the damage and cast time of Starfire is increased by 25%. This effect stacks up to 2 times and lasts 6 sec.
Great read. I also envisioned the Moon Walk changing you, personally, to a sort of flying arrow of blue arcane energy that sort of shoots to another position. Effectively, the idea behind the cooldown being only 30sec was because it's supposed to function almost similarly to blink, but make it unique and more effective. I can see the cooldown being bumped up, but I think it'll lose its effectiveness in all honesty.

I've basically gone through nearly everything you pointed out in my head before, from making us damage sponges like we are now with higher passive survivability, to making our heals ineffective and our abilities more suited to a dps caster. The balance* I chose was one where if we get the chance to, our healing can be effective (similar to mages in evocating/eating), and our playstyle more slippery than tanking. It's just way more fun that way, and the only way we can get casts off properly with these longer cast times (or gimme back 1.5 wraths =D)

Another point is that we need our armor in all forms. My shaman has similar damage reduction as me in moonkin form, yet doesn't lose it to heal. Unlike shadow priests, we don't have other damage reduction talents or bubbles or a flash heal that does moderate healing (@people who'd argue that spriests have to drop their defenses too).

Why do we get screwed the hardest in so many fields =/ (rhetorical question, that's why this thread exists really).


*EPIC PUN
i want you to have my babies OP.
i like most of those ideas. i hate feeling like one of those siege vehicles from wrath, which i hate also. as moonkins, we're clunky, slow, and have huge signs on our backs saying "KILL ME FIRST". You can say all you want about moonfire spamming and how its nubbish, but with some really horrendous cast times on our main nukes, what do you expect from the majority of moonkin players (not talking about all you awesome gladiator moonkins, if those even exist).

id even be willing to give up healing as a moonkin. nerf moonkin healing into the ground ( more than it already is ) or druid healing in general unless specced resto and give some defensive abilities / escape mechanics.
Boomkins are a balanced class in a world full of overpowered classes, so it makes people think boomkins are weak, blizzard needs to start nerfing everything except boomkins and shamans


Amen!!!!
i want you to have my babies OP.
i like most of those ideas. i hate feeling like one of those siege vehicles from wrath, which i hate also. as moonkins, we're clunky, slow, and have huge signs on our backs saying "KILL ME FIRST". You can say all you want about moonfire spamming and how its nubbish, but with some really horrendous cast times on our main nukes, what do you expect from the majority of moonkin players (not talking about all you awesome gladiator moonkins, if those even exist).

id even be willing to give up healing as a moonkin. nerf moonkin healing into the ground ( more than it already is ) or druid healing in general unless specced resto and give some defensive abilities / escape mechanics.

That's basically how it feels. With the current moonfire/IS/starsurge damage, it makes me feel how I want to feel. I'm bouncing around popping instant roots on a warrior, dotting him as a i gain distance and then nuking him with a starsurge. It's exactly how I want to play - but when 3+ come into the picture, each with their own separate lock down mechanics, we're basically done for. We can't escape. We can't survive. We can't cast. The best we can do is some moonfire spam.

As I said in the OP, I'm actually a big fan of what they've done on the offensive side (outside cast times being slow). I just think we need defenses looked at after 3 years.
I dont like the idea of giving yet another class a def. that reduces dmg or stops it completly because this game wold convert to a game of swiching back and forth new targets between cds but I do rather preferr having a talent that makes enemys think twice (their option) before continue to atack moonkins. Wich was the hole idea of thorns hi dmg if at least work vs melee thats fine because u can easy LOS behind a pillar a caster and offheal or go traveform and run far away removing any snare he got on u (see u cant do that vs melee cus if u go u travelfrom u lose the armor see were im getting at?). etc. (and we got reduce magic taken talent no matterwhat form u in.)

Idk if Intelect and talents help increase scale dmg of thorns but thorns doing 60% less dmg is a nerfed to almost old state wich is bad cus still has cd.

This could have been our defensive cd to make people think twice before atacking us if at least only vs melee for a short time thas still would be something.

Increase dmg a bit more again even if that means increasing the cd on thorns plz the nerf was to hard for a caster dps spec that has never been competeive in arenas (like mages) and will most likley need major buffs without the nerfs.

Blizzard scared to buff enought moonkins into being competitive for arenas is the reason I stoped playing my moonkin (rival only) and did 2200 arena master easier on my lock.

P.S. Another way to let us be more defensive is giving us the option to talent some uselfull stuff into feral. Could there be some way to pick armor or other usfuel talents from feral that also helps mookin.

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