Rocket boots should be allowed in Rated BGs

Battlegrounds
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Hello to all. This is a post I originally wrote on MMO Champion and wanted to share with you here on the new forums. It summarizes my opinion on why rocket boots should be allowed in the new rated battlegrounds.

Long time reader, first time poster here. I just wanted to share my opinion on the state of PvP going forward in Cataclysm, specifically concerning rated BGs and the restrictions placed on them.

To introduce myself, I play a few different classes but my main is undoubtedly my rogue. I've been playing since the end of Vanilla (played warrior back then) with a few breaks here and there. I've spent some considerable time playing every aspect of the game; whether it be hard-mode PvE, 2300+ Arena, or chain queuing battlegrounds for fun. I just recently got my Battlemaster title on my rogue, which when paired with my 3 other toons gives me somewhere around 2,000 battlegrounds played in total. So I feel somewhat qualified to provide my opinion on BGs in Cataclysm for those willing to listen.

I'm going to get right into my opinion, and then try to list all the facts why I believe my opinion should be shared by all of you. Please read my explanations before commenting, because chances are I will address most of your concerns in this post.

I'm really disappointed with the recent decision to disable all engineering items from rated BGs. I accept that some are overpowered, so for now I am talking about rocket boots ONLY. I think we all agree that Free-Action potions, most grenades, mind control helmets, etc. etc. have too much impact on a rated game to be allowed. Some of these items cannot be countered by other players, and would force every competitive BGer to level Engineering. This is not the intention of Blizzard and I doubt people want to be pidgeon-holed to one necessary profession. I'm pretty familiar with both sides of the argument, so let's list the pros and cons here. These are not my opinions, they are the opinions that have been expressed by others in previous debates of this issue.

Pros (Why rocket boots should be banned): They are overpowered. They are banned from Arena, therefore they should be banned from all rated PvP. You can't kill someone 1v1 if they have rocketboots, since they can just run away. Engineers already have other buffs that are just as good as other professions. They are still allowed in regular BGs so just use them there.

Cons (Why rocket boots should be allowed): They are not overpowered. They have been allowed in BGs this entire time. Engineering is a profession and therefore everyone is allowed to level it. If everyone has the ability to learn it then not getting it is just a choice made by the player. BGs are NOT the same as arena and therefore they should not have the same rules. Blizzard already took Engineering out of PvP in Arena, this makes it even more useless for PvP. Clever use of rocket boots is a way to demonstrate skill. Most serious PvPers have Engineering already, so it won't even make that big a difference since almost everyone will have Rocket boots. Lastly, rocket boots are fun!

MY ARGUMENT:

I'll address the Pros first with my counter-argument.

First, these are not your grandpa's rocket boots Xtreme, where you could use the 300% speed boost while holding the flag (and parachute cloak across the WSG mid in 4 seconds). The new tinker provide a 150% speed boost for 5 secs (?) on a 3 minute cooldown. You cannot hold or cap any flag in WSG or EOTS during these 5 seconds. The user CAN be rooted or CC'd while the buff is active, and the buff does not remove any CC previously on the user. They merely offer extra mobility.

Is this extremely valuable in PvP? Yes. Would it provide an advantage over players without Engineering? Yes. Is this advantage disproportionately bigger than the advantage other professions provide? I'm going to say no. I feel that a 3min on-use item that lasts for 5 seconds has about the same power as a passive +X bonus to stats from JC/Enchanting/Blacksmithing/Inscription etc.

Second, Arena and BGs are different! Arenas are a game within a game, where every global cooldown matters and each action has a proportionately bigger effect on the course of the game than each action in a BG. The biggest reason is that you only get one life in Arena. Anyone ever play Diablo II on Nightmare mode, or Goldeneye 007 on the one-shot kill mode? Rocket boots simply had too great of an outcome on Arena matches due to the importance of positioning. Positioning plays much less of a role in objective based BGs. Does it still matter? Yes. Are rocket boots an advantage? Yes. Will they decide the outcome of a game? Much much less often than they did in Arena, which is why they were banned there.
Third, yes people with rocketboots become harder to kill...if the cooldown is up. BUT, the objective of BGs is not to kill (they will rez again). It is to cap a flag, hold a node, or conquer an opposing keep. Rocket boots can be countered by CC as well.

Fourth, the existing buffs of Engineering without rocket boots are comparable to other professions. But Engineering has always been the profession of utility, not passive buffs. Hand-mounted pyro rocket was nerfed along with the parachute cloak, but they are now stackable with enchants. I would gladly give up passive stat buffs in return for Engineering utility; that is the heart of the profession.

Fifth, yes they are allowed in regular, non-rated BGs. And PvE. And World PvP. So why disallow them in rated BGs? Why not disable all profession bonuses and racials? Blizzard claims they do it for balance, but if they really wanted to balance things there are a million other ways besides rocket boots. Why do imbalances exist? Because it's an MMO, that's what makes this game great! Slight imbalances make this game fun, otherwise we would all be using the same abilities on the same classes.

WHY THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN RATED BGs:

1) Battlegrounds aren't about who kills who first. The reason why rocket boots are overpowered in Arenas is that, when used correctly, they usually negate or provide a kill opportunity. No other profession can boast that in Arena. It's true of battlegrounds as well, but the objective in a battleground is not to outlast the first 3 players you encounter. In fact, I would go so far to say that using Rocket boots for any other purpose than achieving a battleground objective (capping/defending a flag, chasing a flag carrier) would be a poor usage. Battlegrounds are not a death match in a small room with LoS.

2) It is a long cooldown. The buff lasts 5 seconds with a 3 minute cooldown, which equates to roughly 2.7% uptime. Regardless of uptime, with the time limit of BGs this means you can get at most 7-8 uses per battleground. If you compare that to the 100% uptime of stat bonuses from other professions, it puts the buff in perspective.

3) Battlegrounds are huge. This isn't an arena map where using rocket boots can literally take you from one side of the map to the other.

4) There are CLASSES with abilities that provide massive mobility benefits over other classes in any flag carrying objective-based battleground. I can level Engineering in one day. I can't level an 85 druid to run flags in travel form.

5) Professions are choices made by the player. There will always be 1 profession that is considered the best via min/max theorycrafting. For PvE and PvP. Whether the player decides to take the time and gold to level a profession or not, that is a personal choice. You can't complain about someone else's ability to do something when you are offered (but turn down) the same opportunity.

6) Battlegrounds are not Arenas. For the past 2 years, they have been the place in PvP to utilize professions and long class cooldowns. Some of these provide an unfair advantage in a rated match (such as Free Action potion). I do not feel Rocket boots fall into this category. In fact, I think it's a shame that long 8-10 minute cooldowns such as Lay on Hands and AoTD are not allowed. Battlegrounds should offer different possibilities than Arena because they are objective based and not reliant on balance in a deathmatch scenario.

7) Most importantly: Fun Factor (the reason why we PLAY THIS VIDEO GAME) is almost limitless. Engineering is an undeniably fun profession. Porting, Parachuting, Bombing, Turbo-charging, etc. It's fun. This is a video game.

The real issue here is how to allocate Balance vs. Fun Factor. Blizzard wants to make the game as fun as possible, and I think rated BGs are a great step in the right direction. However, they also want to make all PvP encounters balanced for each player. This is also appreciated, however in the case of Engineering I think they misjudged the (perceived) imbalance of rocket boots. If it takes passive stat nerfs to allow it, fine. But rated BGs are NOT arenas, and the objective-based gameplay is a perfect setting for Rocket Boots.

To all those who agree or disagree, please post calmly and without flaming each other. It's fine to have an opinion, and this is a forum for sharing those. Thanks and sorry for the long post.
My questions to you:

What other profession perk allows you an active ability to:
1) Catch a flag carrier from a great distance while in combat?
2) Beat everyone to a flag return/drop where the flag carrier might have died a great distance away from a group of friends and enemies?
3) To boost past someone about to cap a flag to pick up the flag and block the other team from capping?
4) To race past a flag carrier, and pop a fear/typhoon/thunderstorm in an attempt to reverse the direction of the flag carrier.
5) To rapidly return to flag defense in your base after you have been killed (Rez -> Rocket Boosts to flag room)

And the list goes on.

The reality is that it is too good of an active ability, which, if allowed, will be required to have by any serious PVP'ers.
It's killing me that I can't use my boots while holding the flag, It could save me so many times. And of course every now and again I forget and use them anyway lol
My questions to you:

What other profession perk allows you an active ability to:
1) Catch a flag carrier from a great distance while in combat?
2) Beat everyone to a flag return/drop where the flag carrier might have died a great distance away from a group of friends and enemies?
3) To boost past someone about to cap a flag to pick up the flag and block the other team from capping?
4) To race past a flag carrier, and pop a fear/typhoon/thunderstorm in an attempt to reverse the direction of the flag carrier.
5) To rapidly return to flag defense in your base after you have been killed (Rez -> Rocket Boosts to flag room)

And the list goes on.

The reality is that it is too good of an active ability, which, if allowed, will be required to have by any serious PVP'ers.


The mechanics of defile on the Heroic Lich King encounter "require" serious PvE'ers to take Engineering. Should we remove the profession altogether?

There are no requirements in professions. If people are serious enough about achieving success to choose the profession they think will help them the most, what is wrong with that? It comes down to player choice.
My questions to you:

What other profession perk allows you an active ability to:
1) Catch a flag carrier from a great distance while in combat?
2) Beat everyone to a flag return/drop where the flag carrier might have died a great distance away from a group of friends and enemies?
3) To boost past someone about to cap a flag to pick up the flag and block the other team from capping?
4) To race past a flag carrier, and pop a fear/typhoon/thunderstorm in an attempt to reverse the direction of the flag carrier.
5) To rapidly return to flag defense in your base after you have been killed (Rez -> Rocket Boosts to flag room)

And the list goes on.

The reality is that it is too good of an active ability, which, if allowed, will be required to have by any serious PVP'ers.


The mechanics of defile on the Heroic Lich King encounter "require" serious PvE'ers to take Engineering. Should we remove the profession altogether?

There are no requirements in professions. If people are serious enough about achieving success to choose the profession they think will help them the most, what is wrong with that? It comes down to player choice.


Blizzard has stated very clearly that any time something in the game is so effective that it becomes "required", they need to change it.

There are precedents already set for this.
Good post. Well thought out. Letting in all of alch/engi items just wouldn't have worked but boots alone seems reasonable. I could see an uproar from the Alchemists if we get boots and they don't get anything though = /. I am definitely in favor of allowing just boots. You make good points about map size and non-deathmatch style play, where the effect of boots won't be so significant.

You also made a good point about the slight comparison to pve. My favorite class to play is UD Male. I like they way they look and I like their casting animations. However, when I was doing hard mode pve, I race changed to this ugly female troll. Why? Because they provide the best min/max race-wise for shadow priests. It gave me an advantage over UD shadow priests. Did UD priests realize this? Of course. But they chose player aesthetics over min/maxing.

If they allowed all engi items to be used, it would be too much. The advantage would be so severe you would HAVE to be engi to be competitive. Allowing only boots would lessen that advantage and make it on part with other profession benefits.

It was easy for blizzard to just say "Arena Rules apply for RBGs" I think they should consider this post, and the posts that follow to break the snap decision of not allowing rocket boots in RBGs.

I think the overall pvp player base agrees with you from what I've read on this forum and on AJ.
My questions to you:

What other profession perk allows you an active ability to:
1) Catch a flag carrier from a great distance while in combat?
2) Beat everyone to a flag return/drop where the flag carrier might have died a great distance away from a group of friends and enemies?
3) To boost past someone about to cap a flag to pick up the flag and block the other team from capping?
4) To race past a flag carrier, and pop a fear/typhoon/thunderstorm in an attempt to reverse the direction of the flag carrier.
5) To rapidly return to flag defense in your base after you have been killed (Rez -> Rocket Boosts to flag room)

And the list goes on.

The reality is that it is too good of an active ability, which, if allowed, will be required to have by any serious PVP'ers.


If you're full JC/BS and have better passive stats... that will give you an advantage once you're on a player. We sacrifice Damage output for utility. The choice is yours.
My questions to you:

What other profession perk allows you an active ability to:
1) Catch a flag carrier from a great distance while in combat?
2) Beat everyone to a flag return/drop where the flag carrier might have died a great distance away from a group of friends and enemies?
3) To boost past someone about to cap a flag to pick up the flag and block the other team from capping?
4) To race past a flag carrier, and pop a fear/typhoon/thunderstorm in an attempt to reverse the direction of the flag carrier.
5) To rapidly return to flag defense in your base after you have been killed (Rez -> Rocket Boosts to flag room)

And the list goes on.

The reality is that it is too good of an active ability, which, if allowed, will be required to have by any serious PVP'ers.


If you're full JC/BS and have better passive stats... that will give you an advantage once you're on a player. We sacrifice Damage output for utility. The choice is yours.


The difference being this:

With Rocket Boots you can say: "Thogden just won that game because he was able to pop Rocket Boots, catch that flag carrier and return the flag so his team could cap"

Nobody will ever say: "Thogden just won that game because he had 2 extra sockets and some ring enchants"

The active ability is much more profound, noticeable and game changing.

The difference being this:

With Rocket Boots you can say: "Thogden just won that game because he was able to pop Rocket Boots, catch that flag carrier and return the flag so his team could cap"

Nobody will ever say: "Thogden just won that game because he had 2 extra sockets and some ring enchants"

The active ability is much more profound, noticeable and game changing.


1st off, no one will ever say "Thogden just won us" something /wink
I mean, we could get into tactics... like why is your flag carrier alone? (don't want to derail the thread) And damage is damage. If they could live/heal with 2k life left with a rocket boot player on them compared to the extra dps from JC/BS killing that extra 2k life... it IS a factor.

I do agree, in some specific situations, boots could impact a game. However, in the grand scheme of things, for 3 flag caps, boots won't be that significant. Besides, there is only 1 bg where the ONLY objective is CTF. There others either don't have flags or are a mix. So 1 bg, boots "might" impact a game. In a game like AB... they would hardly factor into the overall gameplay at all.
I haven't been following the changes to Cata professions too closely, but what is the deal with engineering cogwheel sockets? I'm curious if engineers are being given a capacity to increase their stats in a comparable manner to other professions.

If so, then I can see why all other engineer goodies should be excluded from RBGs.

C
Besides, there is only 1 bg where the ONLY objective is CTF. There others either don't have flags or are a mix. So 1 bg, boots "might" impact a game. In a game like AB... they would hardly factor into the overall gameplay at all.


Bootsing to a flag in AB to hit a capper?

Bootsing to the middle in EOTS to make it to a the flag to be able to pick it up before the other team can get there to stop you?

Bootsing in IoC to a vehicle to damage it?

Bootsting to a wall in SOTA to diffuse a bomb someone just dropped and began to walk away from?

Bootsting through the defenses of a downed relic door in SOTA?

etc, etc, etc...

The list goes on.

I run either full or partial premades a few nights a week and many of my guys have engineering and this allows me to see the impact.

If Boots were allowed to go live in RBG's, I would require every player to have engineering.

There is nothing I am going to say to make you change your perspective, nor you, mine.
Besides, there is only 1 bg where the ONLY objective is CTF. There others either don't have flags or are a mix. So 1 bg, boots "might" impact a game. In a game like AB... they would hardly factor into the overall gameplay at all.


Bootsing to a flag in AB to hit a capper?

Bootsing to the middle in EOTS to make it to a the flag to be able to pick it up before the other team can get there to stop you?

Bootsing in IoC to a vehicle to damage it?

Bootsting to a wall in SOTA to diffuse a bomb someone just dropped and began to walk away from?

Bootsting through the defenses of a downed relic door in SOTA?

etc, etc, etc...

The list goes on.

I run either full or partial premades a few nights a week and many of my guys have engineering and this allows me to see the impact.

If Boots were allowed to go live in RBG's, I would require every player to have engineering.

There is nothing I am going to say to make you change your perspective, nor you, mine.


fair enough. i wish you wouldn't have included IOC in you're argument, it's not going to be on the RBG list and makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about. As far as your examples above... please. Those are mostly irrelevant and too specific/rare to impact an overall game.
Besides, there is only 1 bg where the ONLY objective is CTF. There others either don't have flags or are a mix. So 1 bg, boots "might" impact a game. In a game like AB... they would hardly factor into the overall gameplay at all.


Bootsing to a flag in AB to hit a capper?

Bootsing to the middle in EOTS to make it to a the flag to be able to pick it up before the other team can get there to stop you?

Bootsing in IoC to a vehicle to damage it?

Bootsting to a wall in SOTA to diffuse a bomb someone just dropped and began to walk away from?

Bootsting through the defenses of a downed relic door in SOTA?

etc, etc, etc...

The list goes on.

I run either full or partial premades a few nights a week and many of my guys have engineering and this allows me to see the impact.

If Boots were allowed to go live in RBG's, I would require every player to have engineering.

There is nothing I am going to say to make you change your perspective, nor you, mine.


fair enough. i wish you wouldn't have included IOC in you're argument, it's not going to be on the RBG list and makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about. As far as your examples above... please. Those are mostly irrelevant and too specific/rare to impact an overall game.


As for the IoC argument, I was giving examples of how boots can impact a game to refute your point that it can only affect CTF style matches.

Anyhow, as I have already stated, I see my guys pull off amazing things with boots on a daily basis that win us games.

If you are seriously downplaying their effect in other BG's then you are only doing so in an attempt to intentionally make them look weak to make your case for them to be allowed in RBG's stronger, or you aren't using your boots properly.
or you aren't using your boots properly.


Pretty sure that's not the problem.

EDIT: let me ask you a question. If you see your guys pulling off amazing things all the time in bgs that win games, why don't you have engi? Don't you want to do amazing things as well?

EDIT2: i would assume your answer will be because current bg's aren't rated. I would still think if something is OP in bgs and you liked to pvp, you would have it.
That was a really long post, so let me summarize it for those of you who didn't read it:

"I want one of the most broken, cheesiest things in the game usable in rated bgs so I can be overpowered. Now those of us on the "make us OP" side will blatantly lie to try to make boots sound balanced."


and this folks, is what we call an adolescent. When you're ready to join the big boy discussion, feel free to bring your counter arguments and opinions.
and this folks, is what we call an adolescent. When you're ready to join the big boy discussion, feel free to bring your counter arguments and opinions.

Now you simply fling insults when someone points out that you're being dishonest. I'm sorry you don't like hearing the truth, but please try to act more mature on the forums.


aww :( another empty post with out any argument to back it up. how would allowing boots bother you?

lets start slow and simple.

ok you're turn.

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