PvE Holy Paladin 4.0.3a Theorycrafting

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The glyphs got changed a bit with 4.0.3a.

I use the following glyphs:
Divine Plea
Lay on Hands

I use LoH almost every fight. It's too good of an OH F#$% button. So that's why I overloaded the glyphs for it. Cleanse isn't really worth it unless you're Cleansing a lot, which doesn't happen most fights.

I don't use Light of Dawn that much, but there's a good chance that's a mistake in my own play. In that case I recommend
Divine Plea
Lay on Hands
Light of Dawn

If you don't use Lay on Hands much, or at all use:
Divine Plea
Light of Dawn

Cleansing/Hand of Salvation/Holy Wrath depending on fight and if you need to help CC or help someone front loading cooldowns..
Thank you for the update with the new patch Lylthe, greatly appreciated!
Glad to be of help!

Whoops, my intention was not to imply that you should take Holy Light off your action bar.

I will admit, however, that I barely use it at all outside of IoL procs. This isn't necessarily a good thing. I can get away with this because my current gear lets me do this w/o OOMing. I apologize if that bias crept into my analysis.

If you can tell me what sections of my writing implied this, please let me know and I will revise it accordingly.

Holy Light should be used. It generates HP, and it fills in voids where you need some healing, but DL and FoL are overheal.

For me, I normally don't cast at all. This probably isn't optimal :P.


Even with the addition of IoL to include DL, I don't think that DL should be the default method to consume IoL. (Note this hasn't been play tested yet.) In fact, it might be better to continue to use IoL w/ HL as a mana saving/throughput balance.

IoL is quite frankly, an awful proc. As healers, we can't heal with the assumption that IoL will proc so we can save somebody. If we are healing as if we need to Shock->IoL DL to save somebody, we're better off using FoL->FoL, because FoL is reliable.

Yes, if you HS, IoL procs, and you need a DL to save somebody, use DL. But when it comes to planning out our heals over the next 5 seconds, if you're hoping for an IoL proc, you're better off using FoL.

Whereas if you were expecting to HS->Normal DL (for preemptive purposes) and IoL procs, using IoL for HL to replace the DL will save you mana, and if you still need a bit more healing, 1HP or 2HP WoG can fill in the gap that DL would fill. In this case, the throughput bonus of IoL HL saved you a good chunk of mana.
Just because I'm a geek

How much spirit do you need for this to be true?
By the time it (Holy Light) is done casting and your GCD is back up you have regnerated the amount of mana it costs.

395 Mana Cost for HL @ lvl 80
0 Haste rating ~186 MPS
@ GCD Cap Haste Rating ~235 MPS

Expected Raid Regen w/o Haste ~125 MPS

So for HL to be "free", you need somewhere between 305-550 in combat mp5 from spirit. That roughly translates to 760-1375 Spirit.
You actually bring up a good point, and one that needs to be discussed. We're talking about low damage phases where you have the choice to do nothing, or cast holy light. Even if casting HL is basically "free" not casting will actually "save" you 1185 mana, because not casting makes your mana increase by the cost of 3 HL as opposed to casting them.

If you're at 100% mana, then you should cast HL. If you there's enough damage to warrant light healing, you should cast holy light.

But what if you're at 50% mana, 0 Holy Power, and there is NO damage incoming. You can
1) Do nothing and regen mana. (1185 mana since that's the delta between these 2 cases)
2) Use HL to build HP.

So the question is, how much mana is 3HP worth? Let's ignore Light of Dawn because a) I haven't tested the new version of it yet, b) It makes my math complicated.

3HP WoG is ROUGHLY the same healing as 1 DL. So we can pretend that 3HP is worth 1318 mana.

So in this situation, continuing to cast HL will net you ~200 mana in the future, whereas not casting at all will net you 1185 mana now. Again, this assumes HL does ZERO useful healing.

So not casting at all is better than casting only for holy power. Don't misinterpret that as not casting is better than casting for heals AND holy power. =P

Overall yes, you should use HL though. I'll go back and try to reword that section a bit.
Updated spell selection/rotation. Added section for addons. Fixed some grammar and readibility issues.
LoD is going to mess with your head when you get around to looking at the numbers. For example @6000 spellpower and 0 gear haste, using level 85 numbers, assuming 5% haste raid buff, SoI, LoD glpyhs, crusade and divinity you get:

3HS:6HL:LoD Rotation using Beacon for everything.
10089 HPS total
3433 HPS beacon
6656 HPS raid
4,861 Mp5 out

HS:2HL:LoD Rotation using Tower for HL, and Beacon for HS/LoD

15106 HPS total
7047 HPS on Beacon
8060 HPS on Raid
4,484 Mp5 out

HS:2DL:LoD Rotation using Tower for DL, and beacon for HS/LoD

19654 HPS total
11594 HPS on Beacon
8060 HPS on Raid
11,728 Mp5 out

Compared to Straight HL or DL spam using Beacon:
6544 HPS total
2181 HPS beacon
4363 HPS raid

17458 HPS total
5819 HPS beacon
11639 HPS raid

HS rotation is the highest HPS only because HS generates the holy power faster, and up untill certain haste breakpoints, you get more LoD/s using HS then using DL/HL. When I am bored I will math out the HS:2FoL:LoD one which should be lower then the 3FoL:LoD one, which will be the top HPS untill another haste breakpoint.

What you should take away from this asside from the fact that we can do 15,000+ max HPS and be more or less even on mana expenditure:regen, is the following statements:

Word of Glory scales worse then LoD without the WoG Glyph and Even with the glpyh it takes around 1.5 targets hit by LoD to produce more healing then WoG, and also transfers to beacon. At 3 targets, LoD will produced a Beacon heal of similar size to WoG itself, and at 6 targets becomes our largest tank heal outside of LoH. Yes a 6 target LoD will produce a beacon heal larger then using Divine Light on the Beacon.
Did RS to test mastery. Note that mastery should fare well since I was healing in the twilight realm.

I have 16.58 Total Mastery. This translates to 20.7% shields, 10% base, 10.7% from rating
394 Mastery Rating (8.58 Mastery)

Here's the WoL report:

I don't really trust the numbers, but you can see it anyways.

Here's what Recount said:
Total Effective Healing (including Mastery): 8,377,196
Illuminated Healing: 1,421,450
Overheal: 8,535,537

Kill Pull - Duration 4:29
Total Effective Healing (including Mastery): 1,349,548
Illuminated Healing: 235,915
Overheal: 985,605
Now the theory crafting:
Total Raw Healing Done: 15,491,283
Total Shielding: 3,206,696
Total Shielding Due to Rating: 1,657,567
Total Base Shielding: 1,549,128

Effective Shielding: 1,421,450
Worst Case Effective Shielding due to rating: 0 (Effective Shielding - Total Base Shielding)
Best Case Effective Shielding due to rating: 734,759 (Effective Shielding * 10.7/(20.7))

Kill Pull - Duration 4:29
Total Raw Healing Done: 2,099,238
Total Shielding: 434,542
Total Shielding Due to Rating: 224,618
Total Base Shielding: 209,924

Effective Shielding: 235,915
Worst Case Effective Shielding due to rating: 25,991 (Effective Shielding - Total Base Shielding)
Best Case Effective Shielding due to rating: 121,946 (Effective Shielding * 8.56/(28+8.56))


I'll break it down later. Right now I want to play WoW.


Very nice Faelyne! I'll look over the numbers, but if beacon is transfering each individual heal, I can see that creating very funny behavior.

Where did you get the SP coefficients and base heal numbers?
From testing I was doing myself through the vaious stages of 4.X and the PTR. I replied to your post in the Healing forums. The easiest way to determine them right now is to use the tooltip values, as they are correct right now, but unless you want to do thousands of casts, we have to settle with the uncertanty caused by WoW's number rounding system. A quick method of seeing how close you are is to see if the range between your Min and Max stays the same, like 425 for Holy Light.

Ever since 4.X hit, I have been making sure the dynamic tooltip values work as they should, and they do, outside of the periods between HotFix patch and Client patches. To get numbers on LoD and HS without Holy Spec, you can just view the talent tree while unspeced, and at differing spellpower levels. You will also likely soon find that Protector of the Innocent scales with spellpower, and stupid me I forgot to recheck its coef, so I have something to do later now lol.

Also, it would appear that contrary to popular belief, WoG does not scale with AP.

I would post the spread sheet I am using, but it is not a nicely organized piece and would need tons of work to make it so someone could just look at it and understand it. It is also using 85 numbers instead of 80 numbers, but they don't change that much. Heal values maybe change by 10-20% max.

Also Beacon and LoD will reduce the benefit of mastery by a significant bit, but will also potentially reach a place where LoD is no longer the largest heal. LoD also essentially negates the need for the WoG glpyh unless you pvp in pugs, and really lowers the value of Eternal Glory and Last Word, to the point where I only put 1 point in Last Word, and skip Eternal Glory for Divinity, simply because even though HS is crap, Crusade is almost manditory, even more so then half the talents in the Holy tree. Infusion of light is also even further devalued by LoD, not that it wasn't in a hard place already. PVE wise, you gain a Holy Light or Divine Light, by pushing back your LoD, or you push back your HS, delaying your next LoD.

My assumption for IoL based gaps in the rotation is just to do nothing because your rotation is too tight still, or Judge/HR/Beacon etc.
Thank you Lylthe :)
Thank you Lylthe :)

Yes Wallo, I'm doing all of this math to keep YOUR butt alive :)
Int however, isn't so ridiculously awesome that we can ignore the other stats. With that in mind, I recommend gemming green (int/haste) and purple (int/spirit) hybrids to get socket bonuses.
Int/Haste is an orange gem.
Thanks for catching that for me. It's fixed.
Here's a spreadsheet I'm using for SP Coefficients and "real" situations.


Relative Value of Mastery vs. Spirit
See above:

For my in-game RS test data. We'll consider the best case scenario for the kill pull.
121946 Effective Shielding Due to Mastery RATING

To compare to spirit, we're going to pretend that I could theoretically cast "less". We'll compare the mana savings from "not casting" to raw spirit MP5.

The table below shows, if I used a base spell to do the equivalent healing, I would "save" how much mana, and how much mp5 that translates into over a 4:29 fight.
<Spell> - <Saved Mana> - Relative MP5
Flash of Light - 11426.72414 - 212.392642
Divine Light - 8370.81274 - 155.5913149
Holy Light - 6691.872908 - 124.3842548
Holy Shock - 7347.91516 - 136.5783487

Using my armory stats (I didn't include BoK), 394 mastery, if it was spirit, would give me 163 in combat mp5. So we can see that unless we do nothing but spam FoL, spirit is worth more "regen". This fight also skews toward mastery, so real situations won't give mastery as good of a showing as I do here. I also did a conservative estimate toward spirit.


I suppose to compare mastery with crit, I should show the effective healing done due to crit, then estimate the amount of effective crit healing done is due to the rating. This is actually easy to do since crit works off plain percentages.

If I have the time I'll break down my World of Logs parse for crit heals.


Anyways, Happy Thanksgiving!
PvE Holy Paladin I am and well for the longest time I have used Clique and have seen it mentioned in this thread as being a real option for healers but in 4.0.1 I actually quit the game partially because once again like in the past various spells didn't work with the addon no matter how many variations came out. Has anyone been able to get spells like Divine Protection and various hand spells to cast on the proper target ? I kept try to get various spells like DP to cast on another person and it would only cast on me no matter what I tried with all the new options for Clique. In the past I also had a problem getting some spell that would aggro multiple targets to work at all with Clique. I forget the name of the spell but luckily I didn't need it as I wasn't a tank but still Clique should have allowed me to use it.

Bottom line ... if Clique isn't a real option anymore then what is the closest thing to it ? Voodoo or whatever it is ?
I was using Clique just fine in 4.0.1 in conjunction with the default Blizz UI before Healbot updated. I imagine Clique should still work, but I haven't used it since Healbot updated.

You can do the same thing that Clique does with mouse over macros without any addons at all, but you'll need to press a keyboard key.
#showtooltip Hand of Protection
/cast [@mouseover] Hand of Protection

Vuhdo and Healbot have click casting built in. They also support using mouseover macros with their click casts. I have my Healbot setup to whisper the target when I use HoP on them as well:

#showtooltip Hand of Protection
/run if GetSpellCooldown"Hand of Protection"==0 then SendChatMessage(">> Hand of Protection on you! <<","WHISPER",nil,UnitName"mouseover")end
/cast [@mouseover] Hand of Protection

The if check prevents some spam in that if HoP is on cooldown, it won't whisper them. However, it does NOT do a range check.
Divine Protection is self cast only, its not clique thats the issue, its what you are trying to do.

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