PvE Holy Paladin 4.0.3a Theorycrafting

Paladin
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Bump. Hope this gets a sticky.
12/02/2010 1:14 PMPosted by Dubalicious
Mastery isn't worthless, in fact you can say that int > spirt > mastery > haste > crit.


You could, but people would probably want to see evidence of it being a well-performing, well-thought out itemizing strategy before they would go for it.


http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8117/wowscrnshot112810221913.jpg

Heroic LK 25. Youll notice the only healers above me in terms of throughput were disc priests, and it is hard to top them with infest.

Also, I don't use DL pretty much at all in Wrath content. I FoL. It is big enough, and faster, and the way damage works, more heals are better than bigger heals. It isn't as mana efficient, but mana isn't a concern with 50k mana pools. At the end of H LK 25 where I was the only Holy Paladin, I was not mana starved at all.

I tested beta raids. FoL and DL have extremely different dynamics there. They cost 6k+ mana per cast, which will OOM you VERY fast if you spam them AT ALL. Knowing when to use one versus the other will seperate the good healers from the bad OOM healers (which was an issue I saw most mediocre healers having in beta raids. They'd be oom, at the bottom of the HPS chart, where I'd be carrying the heals with supple mana reserve).

FoL will be more of a triage spell, thrown to prevent deaths. DL will be used as an opportunity filler, mostly. It is more mana efficient than FoL, and saves time from trying to fill someone with Holy Light.

I think people are severely underestimating how much use mastery has. I strongly suspect in the hands of good healers, it will add a lot of throughput to your healing. I have no intention of reforging for it in Cata (I do now because crit = overhealing, it will not in Cata, at least not as much), but I will probably go after a fair amount of gear with mastery.
I'm feeling excited about my pally again with the Cata changes. We're no longer a three heal pony. Thanks for all the good information!

Bump for goodness.
12/05/2010 7:53 PMPosted by Dubalicious
@Aani

I guess I wasn't trying to argue that Mastery is completely worthless, I'm just not convinced it should be itemized over haste/spirit/crit pretty much any other stat.

I could be wrong as I have no experience at level 85, but I would have to see some evidence that that is the way to itemize at that level.


Personally, I think at 85 it is going to be very hard to determine which stats are "better". Crit will actually be useful due to so much less overhealing, and Holy Radiance ticks crit. Spirit will only be as valuable as you need mana regen. I think mana conservation through healing technique will limit the amount of spirit you need. Plus, you will need to focus on throughput versus just stacking regen. Mastery is extremely potent as a raw throughput stat, but whether or not it is worth stacking in "favor" of haste/spirit or crit is yet to be determined. My priority will probably be:

Haste (to cap), mastery, spirit (until I feel comfortable), then crit. But to what weight these stats are better or not better is not that staggering.

What I am curious to see is if gemming straight intellect will be better than gemming for socket bonuses. The socket bonuses on gear are pretty heavy duty, it would seem silly to pass them up. But at the same time, Intellect is such a good stat it is hard for me to imagine giving it up in exchange for secondary stats.
Idk if this was mentioned on one of the previous pages, but is it viable to spec WoG as a HoT via Glyph of the Long Word?
12/05/2010 12:12 PMPosted by Aani
12/02/2010 1:14 PMPosted by Dubalicious
Mastery isn't worthless, in fact you can say that int > spirt > mastery > haste > crit.


You could, but people would probably want to see evidence of it being a well-performing, well-thought out itemizing strategy before they would go for it.


http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8117/wowscrnshot112810221913.jpg

Heroic LK 25. Youll notice the only healers above me in terms of throughput were disc priests, and it is hard to top them with infest.

Also, I don't use DL pretty much at all in Wrath content. I FoL. It is big enough, and faster, and the way damage works, more heals are better than bigger heals. It isn't as mana efficient, but mana isn't a concern with 50k mana pools. At the end of H LK 25 where I was the only Holy Paladin, I was not mana starved at all.

I tested beta raids. FoL and DL have extremely different dynamics there. They cost 6k+ mana per cast, which will OOM you VERY fast if you spam them AT ALL. Knowing when to use one versus the other will seperate the good healers from the bad OOM healers (which was an issue I saw most mediocre healers having in beta raids. They'd be oom, at the bottom of the HPS chart, where I'd be carrying the heals with supple mana reserve).

FoL will be more of a triage spell, thrown to prevent deaths. DL will be used as an opportunity filler, mostly. It is more mana efficient than FoL, and saves time from trying to fill someone with Holy Light.

I think people are severely underestimating how much use mastery has. I strongly suspect in the hands of good healers, it will add a lot of throughput to your healing. I have no intention of reforging for it in Cata (I do now because crit = overhealing, it will not in Cata, at least not as much), but I will probably go after a fair amount of gear with mastery.


Did I not just say last page how absolutley useless posts like this are? You have somewhere around 20% mastery. Your mastery was 965288/4702353 = ~20.5% of your effective healing. Now, lets assume something like 30% overheal for fun. Mastery is thus 965288/(4702353*1.3) = 15.7%. How about 50% overheal (since im guessing here) = 13.6% effective mastery.

If you overhealed that fight with 50% overheal, you only got 1/3 to 1/2 effectiveness out of all the mastery you reforged. Conversly, turning that into Haste or Spellpower (which is not technically possible for SP, but still a good comparison), you would have gotten roughly 1/2 effectiveness out of it due to assuming 50% overheal. Since Haste and Spellpower both scales HPS better then mastery in a perfect situation, and the total overheal in theory will be reduced by less mastery, we can assume that using another non mastery stat here (other then Spirit or Crit) would be more beneficial.

Posting a meter with Mastery being in 2nd or even first place on the healing show absolutley !%**. I can easily make a recount SS with mastery being 100% of my healing, and what does it show? Thats right, nothing.

If I was to estimate your OH% in that it would be close to 50-60% I bet.
I appreciate the discussion, since that's what keeps all of us honest, but let's keep it civil. I know I have enough problem with that myself :)

Regarding the discussion of mastery. We've gone over this quite a bit. Mastery can't be discussed as just, "Oh, it's #1 on my meters! Let's stack it!" We have to consider the effect of mastery RATING. That means we need to know what shields were due to base mastery, and what was due to the rating. I've modeled the basics on post #50 and #57.

And let's not kid ourselves. We're not disc priests. Our shields are short, and they aren't very big. You are NOT going to stop heals just to wait for a shield to get eaten. That's just as bad, if not worse than heal sniping. If someone needs a heal, they're going to get it.

Mastery exists to buy us time to get a 2nd heal off. Now, if someone can show this to be false, and show me a mana efficient way to use mastery like disc priest shields, please show the math, and preferably some logs to support this and I'll change my tune.

--------------------

Cataclysm is now very close on the horizon, and with my last raid of WotLK complete, I personally have absolutely no reason to continue work on this thread until I hit level 85!

That said, I'm not going to just abandon this thread :P I'll stick around, answer any questions that still pop up, but I'm not going to be putting that same kind of energy into it that I did while shooting for last minute progression.

So now it's time to start thinking about Cataclysm.

I didn't play beta, and even if I did, with the rapid fire changes Blizzard's putting out, any Cata speculation is just that, speculation. So my advice, go screw around, make mistakes, and just enjoy Cataclysm. We'll be taking all the fun out of the game with shortly enough with "optimal" discussions when we're looking at Cata raiding. :)

--------------------

That said, while leveling, just use some common sense ok?

SPELL SELECTION
No idea how Guardian of Ancient Kings and Holy Radiance will work. Probably a cooldown and filler when LoD isn't available respectively, but that's speculation.

In general
1) Use the most mana efficient spell unless someone's going to die.
2) Feel free to use your mana like a fat kid with candy if someone will die.
3) Use your cooldowns. We're paladins, we have too many.

GEARING
If you can't figure out spell selection, go figure that out first. Nothing you do will fix this.

My math so far actually is showing that for raw HPS, intellect is technically behind all 3: crit, haste, and mastery. BUT, this is already with gobs of intellect. Without a certain level of intellect, these 3 stats suck. Plus, int has other bonuses. So with that in mind, I don't believe it's worth ignoring socket bonuses. There's unlikely to be a completely useless stat, so matching socket bonuses for overall bigger stat #'s is PROBABLY the way to go.

So keep focusing on int, but not at the expense of other stats. So for Cataclysm gearing:
THIS IS SPECULATION, DO NOT TAKE AS GOSPEL:
1) Focus on int, but don't ignore the other stats
2) Get enough spirit to avoid going OOM (dependent on spell selection)
3) Get enough haste to avoid reflex fail
4) Balance Crit and Mastery.
12/06/2010 12:23 AMPosted by Lylthe
And let's not kid ourselves. We're not disc priests. Our shields are short, and they aren't very big. You are NOT going to stop heals just to wait for a shield to get eaten. That's just as bad, if not worse than heal sniping. If someone needs a heal, they're going to get it.


This isn't something that can be effectively demonstrated by logs, it is more a matter of technique. If you have your interface setup appropriately, you can monitor shield life and distribution, and you can react accordingly. Our shields aren't quite disc shields, but they have the potential to be like "Disc Shields Lite".
EDIT @ Rynard
No, there's really no reason to turn WoG into a HoT, especially at the expense of it's base heal.

If you don't need the heal immediately, you're better off using WoG @ lower HP or using HL. There are also more competitive glyphs at that level.

----------------------
Yes, if you want 100% perfect play, you will try to "wait" (by wait I include healing someone else as well as sitting on your thumbs to mana regen) for shields to be completely absorbed.

I'm also saying, that the opportunities to allow for this are very rare. This is definitely true for WotLK, and probably going to be true for Cataclysm. As I understand it, damage is staying about the same, health pools are going up a lot, and our heals are staying roughly the same, but going up in cost. Again, speculation, and I'm not going to do extensive analysis on speculation.

For the sake of discussion, let's consider WotLK content. In raid healing, unless it was an aura fight, the raid isn't going to take damage more than once/8 seconds. That means mastery doesn't really help.

For tank healing, each individual boss swing will almost always hit more than a shield, with the possible exception of a blocked hit under tank CD's. So if you're going to wait for a boss swing to eat every shield before you heal again, the tank's health is going to be going down, not up, or at least ping-ponging uncomfortably.

I suppose you could theoretically:
hit-> DL -> hit -> DL -> hit -> DL

I find that extra stress and more thinking I can afford on a fight unless it's farm content. With tank avoidance as it is, I find it impractical to perform this kind of healing, always timing my heals to interstich between boss swings. If it works for you, great!

I personally find this to be extra work just to use one particular stat and not worth it. If we can show that there are considerable mana savings or HPS boost over, "the green bar's low, better heal," then we can talk more.

Anyways, my point isn't that mastery is bad. My point is mastery RATING isn't stellar. My point is, learn your spells first. Then get enough spirit to avoid OOMing, and get enough haste so you don't let someone die to reflex/lag fail (which btw, if you're in full 264/277 gear you're at this point). After all that's fixed, now start playing with mastery and crit.
Since people are starting to ask, here is my qualitative findings on stat priority. I'm not 85. I'm not running heroics, and I haven't done the math, but the basic assumptions back at 80, haven't really changed. I may change some of my conclusions as I do more, but I doubt I will.

Those assumptions are:
1) You need a good level of base healing that the % modifiers can work off of.
2) Don't go OOM.
3) Don't let someone die to reflex fail
4) Maximize dump stats.

Stat priority, is by and large, completely unchanged, and what Adt predicted.

1) Intellect
2) Spirit to comfort
3) Haste to comfort
4) Crit
5) Mastery

Get enough spirit so you don't feel like you're ooming right away. And get enough haste so you don't feel like someone's going to die immediately. With the decreased rate that damage comes in, you may find yourself finding that "Haste to comfort" in Cata is much different than "Haste to comfort" in WotLK (which was GCD cap for me, you're not going to be able to do that as a fresh 85). On the other hand, the rate you can heal someone to full has gone down with the rate that damage has gone in. So you may desire more haste with that regard.

Yes I know that haste increases consumed MPS and yes I know it decreases longevity if you're stupid and do nothing but spam. However, haste is still the single best way to increase raw HPS. So if you find that you occasionally require on demand burst healing (which is a function of incoming damage from content I have yet to see), haste is a good choice. Avoiding going OOM is going to be a bigger function of spell selection than gear.

It's probably best to maintain crit and mastery at an optimal ratio, with crit probably having the bulk of the share.

Now crit does not equal overheal anymore. But again, crit is unreliable. Even if it takes 10 casts to bring someone from low to full, that's still lots of variance and a significant probability you will get 0 crits. So with that in mind, when you start healing, heal with the assumption you get no crits, then adjust your healing as some crits do land.

Crits will be a nice perk, but you should heal as if you won't get a perk, then adjust for it if it does occur. WE ARE NOT DPS. We don't have enough "samples" before someone is topped off to normalize out the variation.

Mastery looks like its worse for raid healing than WotLK, but basically the same for tank healing. Point for point, it's more effective than crit for raw "HPS", but until I evaluate how much effective shielding mastery rating puts out, I can't say how good or bad it is for certain.

Holy Radiance doesn't look like something you want to use unless you can heal at least 3+ people for full strength, for the full duration. That said, if you run into devastate type situations, and people are going to die, use it.

Don't have Guardian of Ancient Kings yet.
I wanted to bump this because I specifically talked about situations that would apply at 85 in the hopes people would be ready for the changes. Obviously they were not. This thread will still apply in all forms at 85, the only differences are absolute mana costs relative to total mana, and the ammount of Crit/Haste you have.

If you are having trouble healing, read this thread and understand it.
Heads up to everyone, I am in the process of rewriting this for Cataclysm. Much the basic information is the same.

FIGURE OUT YOUR SPELL SELECTION FIRST. Gear is a far, far, FAR lower priority.
It is possible to do heroics with entry level gear, no enchants, no gems, and little idea with what the boss is going to.

Heck, it's possible to do the Baradin Hold RAID in the same situation.

It might take a LOT of time, a lot of frustration, a lot of screaming on vent, a lot of trips to the repair vendor, and a bit of banging your head against the desk, but it's all quite doable.

Overall, HPS Spell Ranks continue to be highest to lowest:
FoL
DL
HL (might be flipped with HS, but I'll know for sure when I finish the math)
HS

Overall, HPM Spell Ranks continue to be highest to lowest:
HL (might be flipped with HS, but I'll know for sure when I finish the math)
HS
DL
FoL

So try to Shock, and Judge (this is sort of new to Cata) on cooldown, but don't let people die. Fill the gaps with mostly HL and DL depending on the situation. FoL if people are going to die in the next 5 seconds, and USE YOUR COOLDOWNS!

Wings is arguably our best CD. The new Guardian of Ancient Kings is really, really cool, but feels pretty weak for a 5 minute cooldown. It might be better in raids with its splash. Hand of Sac will be your best friend. With PotI, the self damage isn't that bad.

Cleansing is messy now. You really need to know which debuffs you can and can't cleanse. I'll be going into more detail when I finish the math.

You also really want to start using LoD+beacon for tank healing. This is relatively easy to do in 10 mans (esp. for Baradin Hold), but a bit trickier to do in 5 mans, unless you have a melee heavy group. The KISS version however, still holds: 1 person-WoG, 2+ people, LoD.

Gear, for now is much easier because:
1) You can't cap anything
2) You need more of EVERYTHING. You need more int, spirit, haste and crit. You might even need more mastery (but I dont' think so).
3) There are basically no bad stats! With the possible exception of mastery. I'm pretty sure mastery is bad, but I need to start logging and parsing my heroic runs before I'd commit to saying this for sure.

Also, start looking at your recount, especially overheals. If your overhealing is not due to:
1) Protector of the Innocent
2) Beacon of Light
3) Light of Dawn
You are doing it wrong.
Outdated, please see: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1406258637

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