Diseaseless tanking and disease mechanics

Death Knight
Some thoughts I had.

1) The design mechanics behind diseases are flawed and the idea of implementing a mechanic like Outbreak is a very weak design patch. Instead of fixing the slow rotation of IT, PS, and Pest... now players can just click two buttons instead of 3... bad design.

2) Death and Decay has fallen down the same hole that diseases have, currently it's a waste of Runes. Death and Decay has always seemed to me like it should have been a core DK ability regardless of the tree you use (as it was a bread and butter Lich ability), and below I will use it to replace the current DOT system from diseases... which I believe to be long failed.


Remove Pestilence, Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Outbreak, Howling Blast (in its current form) , and Festering Strike from game.

Howling Blast replaces: Icy Touch
Plague Storm replaces: Plague Strike
Death and Decay replaces: Pestilence

New Core DK Dynamics regarding diseases.

Howling Blast: Works just like it does now: high ranged AOE damage, applies Frost Fever

Plague Storm: Works just like Howling Blast above: high ranged AOE damage, applies Blood Plague

Death and Decay: Works just like it does now except it's ticks reset the timers on Frost Fever and Blood Plague (as long as you are standing in the Circle each tick of D&D resets FF and BP)... it would not spread diseases you would have to reapply them with Howling Blast and Plague Blast when new mobs showed up (which would basically just be more damage you did and the replacement for Pest).

Blood: Tanking Tree
Talent for Death and Decay: More Threat and Causes Death and Decay to empower your diseases to reduce melee damage done by infected targets to the DK (Frost Fever) and spell damage done by infected targets to the DK (Blood Plague).

Frost: PVE Tree
Talent for Death and Decay: Causes Death and Decay to empower your diseases to increase the chance infected targets can be critically hit by melee from the DK (Frost Fever) and critically hit by spells from the DK (Blood Plague).

Unholy: PVP Tree
Talent for Death and Decay: Causes Death and Decay to empower your diseases to Reduce movement speed on infected targets (Frost Fever) and casting time on infected targets (Blood Plague).


Done and Done. What does this fix...

1) PVE Trash mob fights, Howling Blast and Plague Storm are still useful because they do AOE damage and allow a DK Tank to contribute to a Trash fight that ends in 10 seconds or less.

2) PVE Boss fights, Howling Blast and Plague Storm are openers and are kept going by Death and Decay, allowing for more interesting rotations to be used as long as D&D is kept up.

3) PVP, Howling Blast and Plague Storm are useful just like Howling Blast is now, and Death and Decay becomes a useful CC PVP tool.

4) Leveling, Howling Blast and Plague Storm do AOE damage and Death and Decay add to the ability to clear mobs and finish quests.


Just a mechanics idea instead of adding something as cheesy and obviously patch-esque as Outbreak.
dun like. i agree something needs to be done about blood tanking and diseases, but frost/unholy are fine. you also clearly dont know frost if you think they need desire an increase in crit
Don't for get your current perception of Frost dps is skewed by the pre Cata crazy numbers, which you should factor in before you tell people they don't know what they are talking about.

I should have known better to not put any specifics in a post. :(
If I'm understanding this right you want Howling Blast to be available to the Blood Tree? If this happend they would be way too OP in AoE fights. I will agree with Tibbers that Blood Tanking needs some if just a little work but so far Frost and Unholy are fine.

But Personally I hope when they do fix Blood that people can still choose to be a Disease or Diseaseless Tank with little to no difference in the amount of through put they give. Reason I say this is cause I like Disease Tanking when my Wife loves Diseaseless Tanking and right now I don't see that big of a difference. (Other then the fact that she way outgears me when it comes to tanking. :P)
:P Again, all that means is that Blizzard completely and utterly failed in all aspects of design if they allow diseaseless anything... PVP, PVE, Tanking, or leveling.

DKs were NEVER supposed to be EMO Paladins with black magic spells.

Blanket statements like "unholy is fine right now" does not really address the issue I posted about diseases being a waste of time in any situation.

It just sounds to me like most people are content in not having to use them outside of a boss fight... and even then they will be more satisfied when you can just use outbreak every 30 seconds... and basically just cope with the fact that they are blowing runes every half minute to do 15% more damage on an attack.

If thats they case then Blizzard should just remove them completely... which is design failure.
Haha never supposed to be an emo paladin? How are they not? As far as I'm concerned that's what they have always been, the other side of the paladin.

And as for diseaseless being a design flaw, I'll admit that back when we could do redonculus dps as diseaseless was broken and needed to be fixed. However, now blizz has stated themselves that the risk taken in losing the buff/debuffs that might not be covered by another class constitute a high enough risk to leave diseaseless the way it is. It's all a matter of play style. I love the fact that I can play the same tree in a different way. All the classes and trees have been slowly becoming cookie cutter copies of one another meaning that everyone should be playing identically. Boring.

Now I can not speak for cata, but currently dks are playing nicely. The only thing I don't like is a moonkin with an itchy trigger finger.
Agree with OP, the reason that DK tanking was great in the first place, for me at least, was that it wasnt just drop cons, afk like pally. You had to monitor your diseases and keep them going. Now you can hold aggro by spamming Blood boil? thats just stupid.

I would have to disagree about turning all the diseases into AoE's though, considering cata is going to be MUCH less focused on AoE. Id personally just like to see the unholy pestilence buff in the top part of the tree, so you can get it while tanking.
You're kidding right? Before the patch all a dk had to do to hold agro was Icy Touch, Pestillence then pop off to the fridge for a soda.
whether or not they were overpowered, the intended rotation was interesting. thats my point.
Fair enough.
2) Death and Decay has fallen down the same hole that diseases have, currently it's a waste of Runes. Death and Decay has always seemed to me like it should have been a core DK ability regardless of the tree you use (as it was a bread and butter Lich ability), and below I will use it to replace the current DOT system from diseases... which I believe to be long failed.


No ... no .... no .... NO ... and NO.

Waste of runes .. are you kidding me ? its the HIGHEST threat x dmg move we have. Hold your line of thought, try to tank on cata without using DnD and tell us how it works for you, ok ?


Remove Pestilence, Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Outbreak, Howling Blast (in its current form) , and Festering Strike from game.

Howling Blast replaces: Icy Touch
Plague Storm replaces: Plague Strike
Death and Decay replaces: Pestilence


reality friend ... always stick to reality. Took us 3 months on beta foruns complaining about gaps in the rotation for them to do something as simple as reducing rune cds by 2 sec and making RS proc-free .... and you suggest them to remove 6 abilities from our class and replace them with your suggestions ?

i mean .. really ? Thats how you think feedback works ? "your skills sucks ... i know how to make the game works, do what i'm suggesting".


Howling Blast: Works just like it does now: high ranged AOE damage, applies Frost Fever

Plague Storm: Works just like Howling Blast above: high ranged AOE damage, applies Blood Plague


Yeh .. thats interesting gameplay ... hit 2 buttons, apply diseases on everything on sight. Talk about brainless gameplay.


1) PVE Trash mob fights, Howling Blast and Plague Storm are still useful because they do AOE damage and allow a DK Tank to contribute to a Trash fight that ends in 10 seconds or less.


yes .. because they clearly cant .. right ? Frost being one of the top dmg aoes in the game is clearly not enough. And outbreak + pestilence for unholy really sucks as well.

And if you didnt get the memo .. the game is not an aoe fest anymore on cataclysm. In all the instances and heroics i did there, theres only 1 type of trash on vortex pinnacle that can be aoe'd ... thats it .. on all instances of the expansion. Oh and thats some non-elite packs of cultists on stonecore that can be aoe'd to.


2) PVE Boss fights, Howling Blast and Plague Storm are openers and are kept going by Death and Decay, allowing for more interesting rotations to be used as long as D&D is kept up.


Define interesting. Frost would do the same OBliterate + Frost strike spam .... Unholy would mash scourge strike and DC until their fingers bled. What exactly got more interesting ?

3) PVP, Howling Blast and Plague Storm are useful just like Howling Blast is now, and Death and Decay becomes a useful CC PVP tool.


because clearly, howlingblast with chillblains being a 50% aoe snare for frost .. and unholy with desacration (that is a quite big area, and lasts for a long time) is not enough right ? We clearly deserve a giant aoe root and cast speed debuff area ..

4) Leveling, Howling Blast and Plague Storm do AOE damage and Death and Decay add to the ability to clear mobs and finish quests.


... really ? Thats the best you could come up with ? Clear mobs and finish quests ? For some reason we cant do that now and applying aoe diseases that will make it easier ?

Again, not sure if you got the memo .. if you aggro 3 or more mobs on cata, you die. Simple as that.


Just a mechanics idea instead of adding something as cheesy and obviously patch-esque as Outbreak.


Sorry .. but cloning HB mechanic into a "plague storm" (really .. plague storm?), is not cheesy ? DnD being a brainless automatic aoe version of FeS you consider a good design mechanic ?


Again, all that means is that Blizzard completely and utterly failed in all aspects of design if they allow diseaseless anything... PVP, PVE, Tanking, or leveling.


I never bothered to use diseases while lvling. We actually end up using now because mobs last for enough time.

Frost still uses FF on pvp, unholy still uses both and keep them rolling with FeS.

We use them for 50% of the time while tanking ... and while its not the best thing in the world, its ok to have the ability to not use them.

If you are not using diseases on bosses or general pve. Delete your dk plz. The only spec that can afford that are tanks.


As a rule of thumb .. anything you complain about a class, based on wotlk enviroments, are irrelevant. The expansion was not designed about this next 2 weeks .. it's designed to work for the years to come. And given that i've been testing that design since may, i think i know a thing or two about how things are working.
Their design philosophy going into Cataclysm is to downplay AoE tanking with all tanking classes, why would they then turn around and give DK's what essentially amounts to all AoE tanking abilities?
I don't understand your choices of making everything AoE. If Cata is really going to make us go back to a CC and single mob tanking focus, then making everything AoE is very problematic. With you having removed Icy Touch and Plague Strike, (assuming you removed them in your post as you did mention them being replaced) it would be difficult to use diseases in any situation that required CC as you'd have to do a lot of positioning to even use any diseases without breaking every single CC. This would only really make diseases viable on bosses, and if that's the case, why not just leave Icy Touch and Plague Strike as they are?
reality friend ... always stick to reality. Took us 3 months on beta foruns complaining about gaps in the rotation for them to do something as simple as reducing rune cds by 2 sec and making RS proc-free .... and you suggest them to remove 6 abilities from our class and replace them with your suggestions ?



i mean .. really ? Thats how you think feedback works ? "your skills sucks ... i know how to make the game works, do what i'm suggesting".


And look where you guys got tanking at right now... its in the crappiest state... ever... thanks. It's a cool down nightmare... so what exactly did you do?

DK diseases are broken at the core... its not something you fix with rage and a horrible mechanic like Outbreak.

That is all blizzard is doing... "here have outbreak so you don't have to use IT or PS"... its silly and it's bad design.

That is what this post was more about... I think you missed the point.

I see that I dug my own grave here by posting too much at one time and causing rage. I also think that there is confusion with the term AOE... I'm not saying you would spam any abilities like arcane explosion.

The point was that instead of just making it where you use Outbreak then spread it with pestilence... why not just make the abilities that put diseases on targets AOE abilities ?... that way you can just remove a horrible mechanic like Outbreak and remove pestilence.
The problem is, like already stated, that AoE abilities will see minimal use in Cata content if Blizz follows through with their suggestions. Not only will they see limited use however, but having ONLY AoE disease applying abilities would be detrimental to our ability to even use diseases at all, as breaking CC would be very bad. If we could keep Icy Touch and Plague Strike and also have AoE versions of both, that'd be fine. It would, however, be unnecessary.
You do know what outbreak does right?

My point is that IT and PS will be pointless if you can just outbreak and pestilence, then spam Heartstrike... which if you are unaware basically is AOE.. it hits 3 guys.

So anybody can say whatever they want to ... you are still going to be using an AOE attack as your bread and butter.

Again my point is that why not just make applying diseases AOE to begin with instead of just introducing some assinine mechanics at 80 that basically don't fix core issues but just points a band-aid on them?

************

And secondly people are out of their mind if they think that Blizzard is going to make every dungeon super-D-duper hard where you have to have prefect rotations or you cant accomplish them... 90% of the game is still played by puggers and casual players... they are not going to make everything mission impossible... just can that talk already... it's just getting annoying.
Wait, so requiring CC is making a dungeon "super-d-duper hard"? Did you even play before WotLK?
Wait, so requiring CC is making a dungeon "super-d-duper hard"? Did you even play before WotLK?


to stop being derailed here.

Are you still going to use IT and PS if you can just use outbreak and pestilence.
Of course not.

All I'm saying is that Outbreak and Pestilence is fine. 2 spells, all enemies are diseased. The whole 50% damage thing from Pestilence is admittedly stupid though and I see no excuse for it not being removed.

However with Howling Blast and Plague Strike, you also have 2 spells to apply both diseases to all enemies. While this would be better from a damage standpoint, assuming both deal damage up front alongside applying the diseases, it just seems unnecessary, however nice it might be. Based on all the theorycrafting on the Tanking forums, we're arguably the best Cata tanks (although this is just opinions of the theorycrafters and I'm pretty bad with numbers so whatever.)

I'm not gonna argue against DnD refreshing diseases, however.

Edit: Note that I'm not calling the ideas bad, I'd love to have my diseases set up in such a manner; I'm just saying that it's not particularly necessary and our AoE tanking isn't in such a dire situation that it needs a complete overhaul.
You do know what outbreak does right?

My point is that IT and PS will be pointless if you can just outbreak and pestilence, then spam Heartstrike... which if you are unaware basically is AOE.. it hits 3 guys.

So anybody can say whatever they want to ... you are still going to be using an AOE attack as your bread and butter.

Again my point is that why not just make applying diseases AOE to begin with instead of just introducing some assinine mechanics at 80 that basically don't fix core issues but just points a band-aid on them?

************

And secondly people are out of their mind if they think that Blizzard is going to make every dungeon super-D-duper hard where you have to have prefect rotations or you cant accomplish them... 90% of the game is still played by puggers and casual players... they are not going to make everything mission impossible... just can that talk already... it's just getting annoying.


now i got it ... you are a troll .. duh ..

i'm sorry pal .. but you are talking about things you have no idea. So let me situate some points to you.

How instances on cataclysm work:

pulls often range from 1 big dude, to 3-6 mobs.

The basic idea and pulling mechanism (any tank insert your equivalents here) is:

- You mark 1-2 targets to be CC'd ... its not a CC fest, but people will learn that without any sort of CC or way to negate some mobs to join the fight .. they'll die. Usually you mark healers, casters, mobs with CC (oh yeh, some mobs cast cc on your group, its quite fun), etc .. usually any mob labbed as "he can turn this into a mess".

- You assign a kill order. which is quite simple .. this and the step above takes like 5 sec prior to the pull to setup.

- Dpsers apply cc on their targets, you DG the 1st mob, outbreak on him ... drop dnd at your feet.. the other mobs came to you, you pestilence on them and start using your skills.

Then you simply go from there .. get rid of those guys, break of the cc .. get rid of him .. proceed to the next pull. Pulls often take from 20 to 40sec give or take. Some last for more than that.

Theres a VERY BIG difference between handling 2-3 mobs at the same time, killing one at a time and dmging the other(s) with splash dmg/cleave (heartstrike) ... and using AOE spells to kill a bunch of adds.

HS have NOTHING to do with aoe ... aoe is aoe .. cleave is cleave. Cleave = 1 main target + 1~3 more. Aoe = 5 to as much as you can fit in your screen. HB is an aoe because it doesnt have a target limit .. DnD is an aoe for the same reason ... they both have an AREA OF EFFECT, whatever hell is within that area, is affected .. HS is simply a CLEAVE: An attack that hits 2-3 mobs on melee range with you.

If you think tanking is outbreak + HS spam ... you clearly have NO idea on how tanking works on cata, and i advise you to inform yourself 1st before coming here suggesting super awesome things.

And look where you guys got tanking at right now... its in the crappiest state... ever... thanks. It's a cool down nightmare... so what exactly did you do?


this made me giggle ... it really did.

Have fun with your aoe fest dreams.

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