Arms Warrior, Berserker Stance (PvE)

Warrior
Right now, it's beneficial to switch to Berserker stance for PvE DPSing as Arms. This seems like a problem and just a gimmicky way to get some extra damage. Is this an intended trait of Arms PvE? As I understand it, Arms is supposed to be played in Battle Stance for the most part. As it is now, that is suboptimal.
Right now, it's beneficial to switch to Berserker stance for PvE DPSing as Arms. This seems like a problem and just a gimmicky way to get some extra damage. Is this an intended trait of Arms PvE? As I understand it, Arms is supposed to be played in Battle Stance for the most part. As it is now, that is suboptimal.


How in the world is this suboptimal?

You can't even use Rend or Overpower, and you gain... what? Whirlwind? 5% more damage?

EDIT: Yeah, there's no way 5% more damage could possibly justify losing Rend and Overpower. Seems like a DPS loss more than anything.
5% more damage, yes. You can Rend and Overpower, then switch stances to Berserker for the rest of your skills until your next Overpower. You do not lose anything.

A quote from tichphys on the EJ Forums summarizes as such:

"With Tactical Mastery now allowing arms warriors to retain up to 75(!) rage on stance change, I am finding it very easy to change to berserker stance during the rotation. Correct me if I am wrong, but the constraints on NOT being in berserker stance seem to only be dealing with Taste for Blood procs and rend refreshes. This allows one to change stances from battle to berserker immediately after an overpower, while rend still has at least several seconds remaining. You can spend enough time in berserker to do perhaps 2 mortal strikes and 1-2 heroic strikes depending on the rage situation. Then get back to battle stance for OP/rend application."

You can replace Heroic Strike in his quote with other skills now that they are becoming available and worth using.

Here is the rest of his post:

"If this is a good thing to do, some other notes:
- I can imagine staggering the timing of OP within TfB windows (late, early, late, early, etc.) would allow you to consolidate some of the stance changes.
- If it turns out blade storm is appropriate to use in your situation, you probably want to do that in beserker stance. You will come out of it with MS and HS up, and a TfB proc waiting for you in battle stance. Additionally, you'll probably have 100 rage. The follow-up is to simply MS and HS to drop below 75 threshold, stance change, and resolve the TfB. This does mean you need to start the bladestorm with a) TfB proc on 'cooldown', and b) a bit over 7.5 seconds until the next TfB proc is due to either expire or be overwritten. We've always had to abide by condition a, but b is slightly more strict than a battle-stance bladestorm.
- You can change stances all you want during inner rage, as long as the final stance-change you perform is at least one white-hit prior to the end of inner rage. You'll still end up with 100 rage in the stance of your choice.
- A well-timed stance change into berserker is a great time to use reck, as (by design) it is the point at which you are least likely to use an OP very soon (which we know has low to zero recklessness benefit)."

You can stagger Overpowers as he mentioned above and have large windows to stay in Zerker stance in, and only come out to do the OP's and to re-apply rend.
Maybe I -want- to change stances every five seconds.
Seems like entirely too much micromanagement (I doubt I used that word properly) for a minimal DPS gain.
With a simple Timer and Buff Watcher, it's not much micro at all. It's easily mastered with practice, and easily applied with internalization. Even so, it still feels unintended and gimmicky (kind of like 17 second rends). But, 5% is 5% and an increase is an increase, so by not doing it one is hindering himself.
It is unintended and gimmicky. They'll probably put a damper on it one way or another to keep us from stance-dancing constantly for some bonus dps.

Or they'll leave it be like seal twisting until they revamp the class.
That's probably correct. I don't think Warriors should have to feel that they should do something as awkward as this though to min / max. It's only a 3% gain or so at best, so it's hardly gamebreaking. It's just annoying.
wow your epic fail, ever think of having to blow a GCD just to switch a stance? in that time it took for GCD you coulda had another ability done, you sir are fail and need to rethink life, same with all the other people who thought this its at all possible to gain ANY DPS from switching stances like this as arms....
wow your epic fail, ever think of having to blow a GCD just to switch a stance? in that time it took for GCD you coulda had another ability done, you sir are fail and need to rethink life, same with all the other people who thought this its at all possible to gain ANY DPS from switching stances like this as arms....
To some people, any gain is a gain worth gaining.

Also, just because you think it's dumb, doesn't mean you should come in here and talk to everyone who was having a civilized conversation as if they were morons and need to reconsider life for considering that stance dancing as arms might be a viable DPS gain, however minimal that gain might be.
My Advice is Respec an go fury for PvE.. becasue right now Arms dosent comepare to Fury for dps right now but may change at lvl 85
wow your epic fail, ever think of having to blow a GCD just to switch a stance? in that time it took for GCD you coulda had another ability done, you sir are fail and need to rethink life, same with all the other people who thought this its at all possible to gain ANY DPS from switching stances like this as arms....


Stance switching is on its own GCD.

Please do more research about Warriors before coming to post in our forum, Druid.
Just ignore him if he lacks understanding....I am glad this post came up; good ol Rys. I remember wondering if it was worth it to do this as soon as 4.0 hit as I tried out the new arms that night, flipflopping stances for like an hour on heroic festergut, because people could not get their act together lol. Of course I couldnt tell if it was a dps increase or not because it was during that short period where warrior damage was abysmally low, but I found it quite fun having the flexibility to do so. I find its very nice mainly for trash. Rend, Tclap (specced for Blood n Thunder ftw), Zerk Stance, Cleave, Whirlwind, Cleave, etc, refresh Tclap. I hope they dont change it because I love the ability to stance dance with impunity. I mean it is called Tactical Mastery after all, so ergo mastery of your stances and their optimal use at the right time will separate the large, full beards from the scraggly ones. If we must flipflop stances to do the most damage so be it!

On a side note, I am curious as to if anyone knows if refreshing rend with thunderclap modifies it with AP fluctuations or if it just keeps refreshing it at the level it was at at its application? This is because I generally just keep it rolling with tclap instead of reapplying manually.
Well, I can see the allure behind stance dancing to get the optimal amount of damage, as it adds complexity for the best players to master and separate themselves from the rest. The whole point of this was really to say that the stances bonuses are still imbalanced. Is Blizzard balancing Arms to be in Battle, with a 5% benefit, to compare with Fury? Or are they taking into account that switching stances can net somewhat of a gain, and balancing according to that? I'm going to guess that it's the former because the Berserker Stance switch is not that easy to pull off in a hectic environment (and keep a solid combat flow), and as far as I know just isn't happening in real situations right now because it isn't exactly practical.

If nothing else, while gimmicky, it does give us something to practice on beyond the easy bread and butter priority system. It's still more fun than BT every other gcd.

About Rend and T-Clap: I think it would be better in the end to let rend fall off, and then refresh it with rend again (in single target situations of course). You get that extra tick of Rend (which does more damage than Thunder Clap, or did before the 4.0.3a Rend Nerf at least), and it costs less rage. I saw that Taste for Blood was worded (in the patch notes) to say that it "Once again procs on every other tick of Rend". I assume this means every 6 seconds instead of every second tick of Rend, as you could have it 3 seconds later by rending immediately after the last tick of a Rend cycle (i.e. it does its final damage, you instantly re-apply for another tick of rend damage, and it ticks again 3 seconds later). It would be easier if they just took off the initial application damage, as much as it pains me to say it. Then you could roll Rend without worrying about that extra hit and the 5 second ICD on TFB.

Pretty easy to macro abilities so you're in the most optimal stance to cast them.


Pretty easy to macro abilities so you're in the most optimal stance to cast them.


Yeah, with some UI Manipulation you can make the entire process go a lot smoother. A Power Aura for TFB and Rend with a easy to see timer or something similar will let you know basically exactly when it's time to switch back to Battle to Overpower / refresh Rend. You can stick those stance macros on all of your abilities and basically go right into what you want, when you want it. You would probably not want your bar to change between the stances though if you do that, so a simple bar replacement addon would help.

Going to see how it works out post 4.0.3a.
Accidental Double post due to lagging forums.
Thanks for the reply Rysidion.

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