Complete Hunter Problem List Post 4.01

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This post is centered on PvP not PvE, although I am sure many of the points impact PvE. Nor is it meant as a wall of text, unfortunately its length is due to a near total accounting of our misfortune post patch 4.01 and moving into cataclysm. I know idiots that have trouble reading anything without pretty pictures and chat bubbles will respond, other than the flame trolls and previously mentioned idiots I would like to hear your thoughts on my post and please add anything I missed. Sadly we haven’t seen the same sort of evolution other classes have experienced. This is due to our “unique” damage combination; we are in the uncomfortable middle being Ranged casters without the high value casted attacks, plus damage over time spells or Melees consistent auto attack damage, with a series of high damage cool down abilities (including the buff melee saw with the destruction of armor pen and the negative effects to damage).

Focus generation in its current form is too choppy for PvP (Fox helps, not a miracle). In theory Focus is unlimited; in practice our attacks are finite in pvp. The damage and amount of attacks we can put out before, during, and after CS/SS spam isn't enough to make anyone worry. In order to fully debuff a target with Serpent, Widow, and Trap/Black Arrow (recent nerfs saw to Explosive Trap being better then BA again) we must use about 60% of our resource, limiting the amount of attacks to a target before weaving in CS/SS. We may get either a signature shot or two arcanes off; depending on focus regeneration talents another arcane may be possible before the SS/CS spam. The addition of CS/SS into the rotation isn't a dps gain but an integral part of dps/rotation management, both are relatively low damage (with Steady being laughable) considering they are comparable to other ranged classes spammable spells.
Hunter attacks are almost rogue like in that we have a finite resource enabling only a few attacks in place of combo point generating attacks we weave in CS/SS, Hunters only have one talent per tree that offers a secondary Focus gain mechanic. Currently this consistent attack weaving offers the hunter little to nothing in damage, including the Focus Talents (Thrill of the Hunter, Invigoration, and to a much lesser degree Rapid Recuperation and Termination) Focus Generation is so poor I have had to stack haste to even approach my old pvp self. If we are unable to cast CS/SS we run into issues akin to Warrior Rage starvation. Variables for not being able to use CS/SS include; LoS, hunter/opponent defensive/offensive cool downs, range, pet management/dependency, and many others.
All of this does not account for a dispel mechanic and the choice the Hunter must make, to reapply Serpent Sting, Hunters Mark, Widow Venom, Black Arrow, and Even Traps. These low damage but necessary debuffs, further limit our finite resource and attacks. Currently it's more detrimental to the Hunter to apply these buffs in a scenario that could result in their removal, and a near total nullification of the hunter if these debuffs are taken off and/or applied repeatedly. Rogue poison abilities are passive on hit for just this reason if poisons themselves used energy the rogues & debuffs would be totally ineffective.

Nonspec Abilities --------
1. Aspect of the Fox- Allows the use of CS/SS while moving, Cool. Focus on Melee, never mind the fact we have a minimum range so that focus is just going to sit there while we passively regenerate focus while they are in our min range, our defensive abilities also don't use focus. We also lose the AP of Hawk, and no longer have passive dodge helping to mitigated melee damage. We are similar to melee in that we need Auto Shoot to account for a fair percent of our damage; Fox only allows the casting of CS/SS it no longer effects Auto Shot. Before Cataclysm this was a non issue, however with the majority of classes gaining multiple ways to close the distance or maneuver the need to stager step in addition to everything else we have to manage with bloated key bindings (Thanks Launcher) and poorly developed defensive and offensive abilities we need all the damage we can get.
2. Widow Venom- For what it does Vs. What it costs it's worthless. Give it damage; bake it into abilities, something. I don't want another "unique to Hunter" worthless ability. It is also unlike any other ability of its kind that isn't combined into baseline abilities (Shadow Priest, Frost Mage), Passive effects with secondary damage (Wound Poison), or an outright attack (Mortal Strike).

3. Tranquilizing Shot- 35 (20 in beta) focus that does 0 damage has a cool down and for what it does vs resource cost in a pvp setting makes it flat worthless.

4. Camo. Has been watered down so much that it may be a way to stop from having certain classes open on you but truly I am not sure how effective this will be in comparison to other classes’ abilities they will receive in Cataclysm
5. Revive Pet, Mend Pet, Call Pet 1-5. Not only does Revive Pet cost Focus but is 10 seconds baseline. Mend Pet is our only non pet specific heal which is less than any other pet classes abilities. Lock passive heal out performs ours every time, and if a pet is lost they have the ability to bring up 2 new pets back to back all having similar health pools to our pets. DKs can bring a new pet out or use Death coil to heal it. We can't pull a stabled pet out if our current pet is dead since we can't dismiss it and unless it’s a ferocity pet (8min. cd) we have no way of pulling them out in pvp period.

6. Kill Shot is our "Finisher" yet we are lucky with 10k crits on cloth, we have 0 talents allowing its use before 20%. None of our physical abilities take into account for the lack of armor penetration, Kill Shot should be somewhat comparable to classes with similar Finisher attacks (Execute, H. of Wrath). Destruction Warlocks and Shadow Priests received a similar nerf to their "finishers" the only difference is ours is physical so we are doubly nerfed.

7. Trap Launcher & Traps- Launcher requires 20% of our resource (10% glyphed). Regardless of being off the GCD it still requires either separate clicks or macroed to cast sequence making it cumbersome in a pvp scenario (especially after the promise of less key-bindings for just this reason). Launcher and Traps used in this manner are a problem all on their own, a directional ranged ability that must be placed on the ground costs a finite resource (and Glyph), cool down whether it works or not, an arming time, placement visual effects are also in full view of the opponent. With the current costs the ability needs to not only be instant but directed to the intended target not hoping they are dumb enough to run over the spot that just lit up blue while our scatter shot is down. Traps, Hunters unique cc are outdated compared to any other classes similar ability with the progression of the game and class evolution these abilities are ineffective and with our other limitations becoming less and less worthwhile.

8. Defensive abilities- Deterrence is terrible, attacks that bypass parry get through dots keep up, and it can only be used while hold a weapon (which if you pvp you will know that most classes save disarm on a hunter for just this moment). Disengage is our only get out of jail card and as the only class with a minimum range this is highly ineffective; We are the only class with just such an effect, Master's Call is just on to long of a cool down to be considered reliable leaving us defenseless when classes use range closing tactics. We no longer have the damage output to make up for minimum range once they close we may only get a total of 30% of their HP before we drop.

9. Serpent Sting- our only baseline dot which again compared to any other classes is 1/2 again as much damage.
BM --------
1. Focus Fire- consistently ripping a buff off the pet guaranteeing it won’t do max damage if the hunter does, which considering the tree isn't very synergistic. Pets have one Basic attack meaning it takes 15 seconds of steady pet damage, wasting 3 talent points is counterproductive. Also unlike Haste this effect does not increase Focus Regeneration as it should since it is a Haste effect.

2. Longevity- three talent points, considering that is almost 10% of the talent points invested into the tree isn't even close to what it used to be. Reduction on Pet Special Abilities which no longer do damage, reduces Bestial Wrath (see line 3) and Intimidation (which is useful only in PvP). Pets no matter the Hunter's spec have one basic attack every 3 seconds not affected by this talent.

3. Bestial Wrath+ Beast With-in BM's "signature" ability currently only significant Class Enrage (Berserk, Berserker Rage) that is fear-able. Currently BM must invest a total of 5 talent points and a glyph to maximize this combination; it was worth it pre-patch, and still the specs only real option. So many points invested into a talent central to the spec and it doesn't add much anymore. Forcing of defensive or offensive cool downs, general pressure to the opponents, and sometimes used as a defensive ability to stop chain cc. It’s only moderately useful now but still accounts for 25% of the specs talent points.

4. Killing Streak vs. Resistance is Futile - FFS REALLY??? The best BM talent isn't even in the damned tree. Killing Streak in PvP too many variables makes it much less useful compared to other talents in the tree. With lower crit values coming in cata this ability will be next to worthless.

5. Cobra Strikes- the third talent point is largely wasted on this, when the ability becomes available it only effects "Basic Attack" meaning it is only used every 3 seconds insuring with the limited rotation BM has it is nearly always up with just 2 points. It either needs to make the next Basic crit and increase the damage of subsequent attacks or other useful effect.
Marksman --------
1. Sic' EM- 2tp that reduces the pets Basic Attack, currently pets only have one attack and with its prerequisite and Bestial Discipline (especially BM) it is almost a waste. Its one redeeming factor is the change to Wild Hunt on pet’s tree.

2. Aimed Shot- physical damage only used in a PvP setting from Master Marksmen (see 3), any other time or as an opener it's barely worth the GCD. A total of 10 points have an impact on this shot and its 1/2 the damage of other "long cast" nukes other ranged have.

3. Master Marksmen. Sounds Great Right? The reality is we must cast 10 Steady Shots (average) each doing little more than auto attack to get off a shot also doing little more than auto attack but hey, it’s free. It can be dispelled so the chance you may have had to cast an amazing 2k aimed shot before you die has been squashed. If it wasn't for talents like this one, Improved Steady Shot and Piercing Shots (maybe even with them if it stays like this) Cobra Shot would be the go to for Focus in any Situation and the tree can have 30% Fluff talents.

4. True Shot Aura- Talent mid level in tree and only gives the group a 10% attack power buff never mind the Paladin with this ability baseline. What does this do for the hunter? Any other class that has a passive 10% attack power rolled into a talent (Blood DK, Enhan Shaman, also similar spell power buffs exist for Demo Warlocks and Ele Shamans) gets something other then just the aura.

5. Focus generation- Currently the tree only has Termination & Rapid Recuperation making the tree incredibly reliant on a single 3min cool down and low hp of the opponent, the gap needs to be covered by more than just readiness.

6. Marked for Death- this low in the tree abilities should not be so bland, only one point is really needed in this to be effective. While it’s nice not to have to use a GCD its current form does not warrant 2 Talent Point’s and its spot within Marks and would be the perfect place to put either an armor bypass for Steady or a Focus regeneration mechanic. Or make it add Widow’s Venom and give it a chance to apply a secondary effect (Disarm+Mana Burn) similar to what we lost with destruction of Sting Choices.

7. Chimera Shot- the name used to be from its multiple effects based on which Sting was used. Now it’s a High resource value 10 second cool down that compared to anything else with a similar cool down is 1/2 as effective. We lost Disarm, Mana Burn, Bonus damage and gained healing so bad you can’t even tell.

8. Silencing Shot no longer does damage, which unlike melee interrupts it is 2x as long of a down time. Casters Silence have longer down times but last longer or have shorter cool downs.
9. Piercing Shots as Marks no longer uses Aimed in a Steady rotation and must only use it during the once per minute it is not a total waste, Aimed should be swapped with Arcane, or this Talent would be even more fluffy then it already is (steady no longer makes this talent worthwhile).

1. Counter Attack has always been weak, still is. Not worth the talent point in its current form and never has been. We need a parry gain from agility, as a passive effect from Fox, making both more viable, and cement Fox as our PvP aspect.

2. Serpent Sting and Black Arrow are both central to this specs dps and they are a hindrance to cast in pvp. Easily dispelled and compared to the damage they do it is more detrimental to the hunter to cast them again if they get dispelled multiple times. Serpent Sting is only valuable because of Noxious Stings. The Class (especially this spec) needs a way to keep debuffs on their targets or Noxious Stings, Toxicology, Lock and Load, T.N.T. Trap Mastery, Resourcefulness (about 90% of Marks and Survival) go to waste. Black Arrow is less damage then Explosive trap and it’s an end talent that uses up the fire trap slot, Make the damage effect last for 100% of the down time and its removal should massively increases Focus generation or reset the cool down and refund the 200% of the Focus.

3. Sniper Training- Kill Shot sucks, but the 6% to Cobra will be alright. Still largely a waste for 3 talent points this far into the tree you expect something that will give more of an effect then a fraction of your attacks. Perfect spot to put in a way to stop dispel mechanics.

4. Wyvern Sting is too long of a cool down to be an effective tool for survival. If it was a Quasi-Poly or at least stop lower the cool down to something more viable, yes other classes have cc similar to Wyvern (shamans come to mind) however these classes also have baseline interrupts superior to hunter cc/interrupts.
THEY ARE BUFFING US! To check out what GC posted go to

As part of the Marks and Beastmaster buffs, we’re buffing Aimed Shot, Kill Shot, Chimera Shot, and Kill Command.

We are considering making some physical attacks such as Lacerate, Steady Shot, and Slam scale with haste.

These things could possibly Address some of the larger PvP Dps issues (we die before our opponent when they hit us for 25% hp everyattack) and Like the post said just because it isn't in there doesn't mean it wont be in the future. A condensed version of what I believe each spec needs to actually be viable and a valuable member in more than just two types of arena compositions .

1. Steady Shot needs to be equivalent to CS or current talents should effect both CS/SS.
2. Trueshot Aura needs to have a stat buff to be equivalent to other similar talent points
3. Termination changed from 25% (only good in PvE) to a proc based similar to all the others
4. Marked for death needs a working effect this far down in the tree the talent is pathetically weak, would be a perfect spot for a much needed modifier (crit/cd reduction) to Chimera.
5. Improved Serpent Sting should be effected by Chimera Shot, what is the point of having a talent that resets or adds time onto a dot but doesn't make use of a talent?

1. Focus Fire needs to stop defeating the purpose of the trees mastery stat.
2. Killing Streak needs to be adjusted to be less situational.
3. Beast Within either needs to be reverted to its former self or the talents and glyph that modify it should have an additional effect to its currently weak form.
4. Longevity either needs to lower basic attack or offer an effect that makes sense the reduction on cds to non damaging attacks has limited use (Wasp, Spirit Beast are the two most useful).

1. Counterattack removed.
2. Black Arrow no down time and cant be removed or focus regeneration buffed if removed.
3. Wyvern sting cd reduced.

1. Focus costs adjusted
2. Trap Launcher directed to the selected target and removes arming time, if people are worried about the lore just think about grenades, you wouldn't toss one to an enemy with seconds left would you?
3. Minimum range removed or old range returned.
4. Deterrence, Disengage, and Master's call need to be revamped Currently we have A minimum range, one "distancer" every melee has multiple ways to close and stay on us.
5. A 2 minute cd instant pet resurrection outside of ferocity tree (on a separate cd)
I'd just like to show my support in your complaints. Solid post.
Excelent post only thing i can add is that, Silencing shot is not a 40 yard range and there are slow effects that are immune to masters call.

Both Silencing Shot and Tranquilizing Shot have a 35 yard range.

Fantastic post as well btw.
I agree, although I still feel a well-played BM hunter with a corehound is faceroll. At least on my battlegroup anyway.....

i really enjoyed your post. I agree with everything you said, it's bang on. hopefully Blizzard see's this as you seem to be able to diagnose hunter problems better than them.

my only suggest to you is can you post this in the damage dealing forums as well? I'm certain non of the employees from blizzard visit this forum.

Thanks for the post
I love this post. You did a fantastic job at listing all the problems i've noticed plus ones that i missed.

I would love to see a blizzard employee try to comment on any of these issues you've presented.

Sometimes i keep forgetting what month it is and check the calendar expecting it to show the first of apirl....

There hasn't been a joke this bad since... oh right.. it's not a joke and i'm not dreaming. Am i really paying for this? inception comes to mind...
Well done. I recommend a double post in the suggestions forum if you haven't already. I made a similar, shorter post a while back (old forums I think). Good summary of a lot of mediocre talents and abilities. They really dropped the ball on our talent trees.

I completely agree. Focus runs out too fast in pvp situation. Blizz you need to upgrade the regeneration of focus.
AWSOME POST OP!!! WE MUST keep this on page one and make it grow!! So that it catches blizzards attention!

Saving this to favorites. Gonna make sure it grows!

doing the same.
I would like to agree with this post but right now I feel lik a demi-god in pvp. Ya there are some op specs out there (boomkin, ele shaman) but I really don't feel like HUNTERS are the problem.

The reason casters are op and hunters feel a little weak is because we have the resource management that casters will have at 85. Mana costs are going sky high. Come 85 and every caster will cry OOM!!!!!
I would like to agree with this post but right now I feel lik a demi-god in pvp. Ya there are some op specs out there (boomkin, ele shaman) but I really don't feel like HUNTERS are the problem.

The reason casters are op and hunters feel a little weak is because we have the resource management that casters will have at 85. Mana costs are going sky high. Come 85 and every caster will cry OOM!!!!!

Many of the issues stated have nothing to do with resource, but are mechanical problems/bad design/what appears to be lack of thought.

Whilst I do agree the increased mana costs at 85 will level the field some, hunters are still broken even if you take resource out of the equation.
i really enjoyed your post. I agree with everything you said, it's bang on. hopefully Blizzard see's this as you seem to be able to diagnose hunter problems better than them.

my only suggest to you is can you post this in the damage dealing forums as well? I'm certain non of the employees from blizzard visit this forum.

Thanks for the post


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