Retribution Needs a Clear Direction

Paladin
As ret(my offspec) I've actually had a lot more fun post patch. I do agree that the system is very reliant on RNG though. I haven't really raided as ret since the patch(barely on my pally at all actually, switched main back to my priest) but I've done older content and played around in pvp and at the dummies. It made me feel like the difference between me being awesome and me being good was my procs. If I was getting lucky with hand of light and art of war procs I would just mow someone down or in raids see a lot more dps that wasn't from my skill level, but just from being lucky.

I actually do like the rotation, and the inclusion of holy power. Getting extra HoPo randomly from attacks doesn't really bother me, but there are probably a few things that could be changed. A more passive mastery would be awesome, that would be enough to make me happy really. But to go a bit further, I find myself praying for art of war procs, and maybe a system similar to rend and overpower for arms warriors would work. That is to say, have censure ticks activate exorcism, but give that a 6 or 8 second cooldown. Just an idea, not necessarily a good one, and it would require a tweak to SoT, maybe making censure baseline for all seals and just having SoT amplifying the damage of the dot and giving you the weapon damage percentage per swing. Like I said, just brainstorming.

Overall I am alot happier with ret now that I actually have to pay attention and not just hit what button my add on says(yes I used CLCret, but don't since the patch). I would be a lot happier with a bit of reduced RNG, but I can live with ret as it currently is.

P.S I've played on beta and I worried that having to juggle inquisition would be a pain, but it really flows quite nicely into the rotation.
As mentioned before, the fact that because procs and rotations are so erratic, I'm forever trying to concentrate on maximising my DPS as opposed to watching my surroundings or my team mates. If I don't do this, I suck, and my DPS sucks, and I look like a douchebag because I signed up as dmg. Period. My team might suffer because I'm too engrossed in trying to hit whatever pops up that I can't see if someone needs a back up heal or a shield or something. Also the fact that TV sometimes hits for absolutely pissweak amounts.

If you get in a solo battle in PvP.. get out quick, cause in most cases you don't have a chance. In some chases I've been chasing a priest around for like 2-3 minutes and I barely do ANYTHING to them. Oh, I finally get rid of their bubble, so they put another one up and I go back to barely scratching them. My single target DPS in PvE is good.. but everything else doesn't sit well with me. We suck the big heiny when it comes to PvP.

I admire Blizzard paying attention to paladins, and I love the concept of holy power. Love it. I just think there needs to be some improvements.
I actually like the new combat system, however, the problem with our mastery and talents clashing with each other need to reworked. The current system feels like it could be a lot more fluid than it currently is, namely in the form of our 31 point talent, divine purpose, and mastery.

Other than that I'm not that upset with my class or spec. I enjoy it.
i meant simply that mastery makes ret work better, and that intentionally avoiding it, or attempting to remove as much as possible from your character, might not the best thing to do if you like actually playing the class and having it work in a way that is worth playing. i know that haste is the best stat by a factor of 3 over every other stat. however, i didn't want to play my main in a way that would give a false impression of how it will play in the expansion, so i didn't stack haste to an outrageous degree.

i also know that with the testing done at level cap on the beta, they probably saw that ret paladins were avoiding and reforging out of their mastery in favor of haste. this tells me that the value of haste and the value of mastery is likely to change when cataclysm goes live.


The problem with stacking mastery is that as a dps loss, rets will avoid it. It also has some weird clashes with other abilities, such as our 31 point talent. If you raised the coefficient of mastery to compete with haste/crit (crit is almost as good for us as hast, btw, and much better than mastery), you would be a such high chances for hand of light procs that zealotry could become even more marginal than it currently is, or even a dps loss.

I think that we need one rng resource mechanic, which could be made more powerful, and mastery and zealotry could both become something else. Three mechanics all doing the same thing will inevitably lead to clashes, and it's not totally apparent why you need three of essentially the same thing.

Still, I kinda feel like the core system isn't bad, it just needs streamlining to make it all work together smoothly. I'm just not enough of a genius to know how to do that. But there's lots smarter people than me on this forum.

The problem with stacking mastery is that as a dps loss, rets will avoid it. It also has some weird clashes with other abilities, such as our 31 point talent. If you raised the coefficient of mastery to compete with haste/crit (crit is almost as good for us as hast, btw, and much better than mastery), you would be a such high chances for hand of light procs that zealotry could become even more marginal than it currently is, or even a dps loss.

I think that we need one rng resource mechanic, which could be made more powerful, and mastery and zealotry could both become something else. Three mechanics all doing the same thing will inevitably lead to clashes, and it's not totally apparent why you need three of essentially the same thing.

Still, I kinda feel like the core system isn't bad, it just needs streamlining to make it all work together smoothly. I'm just not enough of a genius to know how to do that. But there's lots smarter people than me on this forum.


i'm currently operating under the idea that because haste was so much more valuable for ret than any other stat that you should reforge anything to haste, really, regardless of what it is, outside of hit and expertise cap, they'll probably reduce it's value until it is somewhere reasonably close to the value of other stats.

similarly if people are avoiding mastery like the plague and actively seeking to get rid of it on their gear, they'll improve mastery to make people want it.

these things considered, i couldn't justify avoiding mastery as a stat, or playing with max haste, in the period of time between wrath and cata, knowing that avoiding the mechanic would put me in a bad place moving forward. i am aware that with current available date mastery is terrible and should be avoided - but when current content ceased to matter i decided to conduct a what-if experiment of sorts to see how it would play, and found it more to my liking as a player, regardless of the damage it dealt. obviously, when things go live i'll do what is most potent for damage, because to do otherwise wouldn't be reasonable - but i don't consider a change to make mastery better than it is on live for ret an unlikelihood.

also, i find it interesting that people have mathed out that missing crusader strikes during zealotry because you proc'd HoL is a dps loss strange, if only because it seems to me that chaining 235% damage attacks every gcd in place of CS (whose damage spread should be a lot lower, if i remember properly) would result in a dps loss. i look at zealotry as a cooldown that grossly increases the number of TVs that i can drop during it's duration, and nothing more. i suspect that others must be looking at it in some other way that i don't know about.

edit - also, the idea of 'clashes' is equally strange to me because it precludes that ret has some kind of rotation that can be interrupted, which it most certainly does not now. it seems that people are used to a standard attack sequence, or at least a much more simple and unchanging combat system, and the new system is giving them a lot of trouble. ret's combat system requires a great deal more attention that it used to, especially since it is so new - but with an effective UI and a bit of familiarity i think the newness of it will cease to be a hindrance to people playing ret. considering the number of people who are new to the spec and are stating their enjoyment of the mechanics, i can't help but feel that much of the difficulty long-time ret players are having stems from their unfamiliarity with the new spec's mechanics.

edit edit - apparently blizz is already working to reduce the primacy of haste, censure ticks no longer tick at their applied haste amounts, and because the damage of censure was nerfed it's synergy with haste is no longer nearly as potent.


TV on a 15 second cooldown is just silly. /end rant.


can't help but point out that complaining about the effective cooldown of TV while also avoiding our mastery like the plague is rather silly. just sayin'.


Mastery is the last stat one should ever take when being ret. Haste is king, crit, etc. etc.

effective cooldown? what? I like it the way it is - no cooldown. Haste effects CS and DS (which is completely useless and another topic)...so stacking haste to get to a 3 second CS provides maximum potential uptime for the current design of TV.

I don't understand your comment. just sayin'

they'll probably reduce it's value until it is somewhere reasonably close to the value of other stats.


very likely, however probably not until Janurary at the earliest. Lots of other things need fixing first to actually care about re-balancing ret around itself.

similarly if people are avoiding mastery like the plague and actively seeking to get rid of it on their gear, they'll improve mastery to make people want it.


lol - improve mastery...lol. The only improvement to an RNG dynamic is to just ditch it and give straight up damage increase


also, i find it interesting that people have mathed out that missing crusader strikes during zealotry because you proc'd HoL is a dps loss strange


It's because of the refund mechanic and not taking full use of a 2 min cooldown. Basically during the 2 minutes you can't chain those attacks unless you get HoL, so to increase the effectiveness zealtry as a spell - one must not miss the potential for a CS. HoL procs also take at least 1 second to react to, 1 second to push for CD, therefore losing 2 seconds off your zealtry. Get several in a row? Zealtry just became a waste. It's all about guarenteed DPS not theoretical (RNG based) dps.


ret's combat system requires a great deal more attention that it used to... i can't help but feel that much of the difficulty long-time ret players are having stems from their unfamiliarity with the new spec's mechanics.


What about DS resets? That took some attention. Yeah, I'll agree that it takes more attention, but I think now I'll have more opportunity to actually look at what I'm standing in since it's slightly more predictable. Albeit, if Blizz decides to change mastery into something useful, like not-so-RNG based and I'll put more on my gear then it'll be back like the good ole days. Truth is, you'll have so much Mastery on your gear from just static stats that you'll be swimming in it anyway since you can't reforge the total amount.


apparently blizz is already working to reduce the primacy of haste, censure ticks no longer tick at their applied haste amounts, and because the damage of censure was nerfed it's synergy with haste is no longer nearly as potent.


Yeah, which blows, but as long as haste effects the cooldown of CS I'm afraid it still will be prime. :)
I love Retribution. I haven't been able to do a single target fight that has lasted longer than 20 seconds since gearing out this character, but I imagine I would see great numbers in ICC... especially with raid buffs and the 30% buff.
I love Retribution. I haven't been able to do a single target fight that has lasted longer than 20 seconds since gearing out this character, but I imagine I would see great numbers in ICC... especially with raid buffs and the 30% buff.


Well, since the nerf you would be sorely disappointed, but ICC is old news anyway. I'm more concerned with how the class plays, but of course we want our dps to be competitive, and rumour has it that (in pve) it is pretty good at 85. So you should be okay.

However, I want to stress that this thread is not to QQ about dps. Numbers are easy to fix and will be adjusted up or down by Blizzard as warranted. I'm concerned about what I and others see as some structural problems with the retribution rotation.
divine storm should give 1hp 100% and not share cd whit Cs
Tv should be Holy Dmg so that it actually hit Hard Whit inq up
And if they dont want to give us our old freedom back we should have a talent that reduce fear-stun-disarm on us in the ret tree not by alot but you know what i mean.

and reet shouldnt be that bad
I think I have finally worked out the problem. Blizzard uses the beta of a new xpac to fix ret for the previous xpac.

The WotLK beta finally fixed lolret and made ret fun and competitive at level 70.

The caty beta has finally added the complexity that ret has been lacking. At level 80 ret is now the most fun it has ever been in PvE.

The problem is that we are going to have to wait until 5.0 until we get a fun level 85 playstyle because unless things change in the next week we are broken at 85.
I haven't really played since the patch , but I was a little disappointed on how ret felt to me, I was torn to pieces by a warrior, that when we used to duel was usually about 50/50. I guess I need more time to get used to the new way of doing things, but I thought ret was pretty good the way it used to be.
Down is a direction...

1). Too much rng. In psychology, a great deal of research shows that intermittent rewards are strong conditioners of behavior. An intermittent reward is unpredictable, and what happens is that you become obsessive about it. Slot machines and boss loot are examples of intermittent rewards.

The problem with our main resource being an intermittent reward is not only that it makes our play unpredictable, it also adds a strong psychological compulsion to watch obsessively for holy power procs. For me, this winds up taking me out of the game. I lose situational awareness, and I am also less immersed in the beautiful world Blizzard has created.


That is the best case against the RNG nature of ret I've ever seen

kudos
I don't lose awareness, I guess I'm just boss.
I don't lose awareness, I guess I'm just boss.



dangling your %$^$ out your pants adds so much to this discussion
I started playing WoW when BT first came out and Paladin was one of the first classes I played and loved it; but now I really don't like the whole holy power resource system, I've stopped playing paladins because it feels too weird to me.

And this is a different paladin, not the one I started using.

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