Holy: Spirit Vs Intellect

Ever more recently with holy spells being so mana heavy and have troubles with going oom.
I was wondering what was more valuable, Spirit? or Intell?
Because currently I'm reforging most of my crit into Spirit, and after doing that i have no mana problems. but i do lost a bit a crit after this, is it worth losing the crit for mana?
What do you guys think?
int is your prime stat.

wearing all plate gives you int.
And you can't reforge for int.

It's that good. Gem for it.

spirit is likely your best secondary stat, reforge for it.
haste is very competitive.

crit isn't very good anymore.
Your crit doesn't really matter if you can't cast a spell, so I would say mana is more important. Not to mention that most crits end up being overheal and since we don't have anything handy like Divine Aegis to make use out of them, the overheal is wasted heal.
int is your prime stat.

wearing all plate gives you int.
And you can't reforge for int.

It's that good. Gem for it.

spirit is likely your best secondary stat, reforge for it.
haste is very competitive.

crit isn't very good anymore.

I meant to say spirit.
why wouldn't you just link to the EJ thread?
1) Int
2) Spirit to Comfortable Level of Regen
3) Haste to Comfortable level (don't go beyond 894, that's GCD cap)
4) Crit/Mastery (both are pretty poor)

overheal via constant healing even when target at full hp is waste of mana, overheal via crit is not, would you call a crit how or excute a waste?
Wait what? I'm saying to reforge crit into spirit for regen, or reforge crit into haste so your reaction time requirements aren't that high. Unless you're saying that you want to gem for crit instead of int?

As a healer, I'm saying you can't pick a spell with the hope that it crits or not. Again, this is WotLK content. The new damage models and health pools of Cataclysm might change that (though I personally doubt it).

The fact that crit is bad for healers has always been true in WotLK. Even for old 3.3.x FoL paladins, crit was taken because there was no other option. mp5 was useless. You were already GCD capped @ 676 haste and the only other secondary stat was crit.

Even in PvE (which I'm talking about, PvP's another story) DPS isn't trying to juggle multiple attacks to bring the target down to exactly 0, or else run OOM. If you were, then yeah, Overkill HoW and overkill Executes are wasted. But when 20% is a few hundred k to a few million, that doesn't really apply.
until the health pools inflate like crazy in Cata, crit is pretty close to useless. with all the free crit we can get with talents and glyphs, there would be little to no reason to ever try to get MORE of it.

With the longer cast times of holy light and divine light, i prioritize haste over crit. Assuming that more haste is going to run you oom is only valid if you are assuming constant back-to-back casting, which is not necessarily the case.

You can think of haste as a buffer for human reflexes, if that makes more sense.
Well the question is, are we talking Cata or WotLK?

Until next Tuesday hits, we're still playing WotLK :P And if I'm talking about holy paladin theorycrafting, I'm talking about WotLK. It's my last week for a shot at the Bane title before Cataclysm, so it's not completely useless for me yet.

Even with that in mind, no one can argue that haste has poor synergy with mastery. But honestly, that's not the reason we get haste. Haste is a reflex buffer, and the single best raw throughput stat (at the expense of mana.)

And honestly, mastery as it is, is arguably a pretty bad stat. If someone needs a heal, even in Cataclysm, they should get that heal, regardless if a mastery shield is on them or not. Trying to tweak your own play style and gearing to make a bad stat moderately useful isn't the way to go about things. Now, again, this is with regards to WotLK damage models. Maybe things will change in Cataclysm (though I doubt it, unless every fight becomes an aura fight).

The problem with mastery isn't haste. The problem with mastery is the boss's swing timer and how hard each individual hit hurts. We're going to gear to match incoming damage, not gear for the sake of gear.
The problem with the Mastery shield is you ARE going to cast heals on the tanks fairly often, and, conversely, you're unlikely to need to cast heals on non-tank raid members more often than they're getting hit. That is, if there's a wave of raid damage, do you expect to hit one non-tank raid member with 2+ heals before the next one? Every now and then you might toss two on the same person, but will you A) do it before they get hit again? or B) do it twice within 6 seconds?

Realistically, if there's a single wave of raid damage every 30 seconds, and you're raid healing as a Healadin, you'll probably pop Radiance and then HL/HS/LoD people one at a time. In this case, you'll probably cast a single heal on each person, hitting LoD to "top off" groups as you go.

You MAY cast 2 heals on a single person, but only if they need the heals, in which case better to heal them, wasting the first bubble on them, and then move on rather than worry about the "wasted" bubble (if they're only taking damage every 30 sec, then only the bubbles you cast on the tail end of your triage circuit will matter anyway.)

So the only time you have to worry about overwriting a shield, realistically, is going to be on a tank, who's taking more constant damage. Even in that case, unless boss swings are REALLY slow, you aren't going to be out-casting them. You shouldn't be spamming FoL unless you HAVE to, in which case the wasted bubble is of secondary importance anyway. And HL/DL shouldn't be getting off faster than boss attacks too often anyway.

And, again, you if the tank NEEDS the heal NOW, you aren't going to go, "Oh wait, gotta wait...wait...THERE, now that the bubble's gone, I'll throw the next heal." That is NOT going to happen. Better to overwrite the bubble than not.

The exception is in cases where the tank is taking VERY small amounts of damage over a long time. But if that's the case, you'll be stopcasting or waiting between heals (for regen) anyway, in which case the bubble will get its full duration and you won't be clipping it with haste.

Basically, the Holy Paladin mastery, at present, isn't useful for tank healing except as a bit of a perk. You aren't going to base your healing around it. Likewise, you won't be basing your group healing strategy around the bubbles unless they increase the absorption amount considerably, increase the duration, or both.

The bubble will probably aid in group/raid healing somewhat, but it will be more of a passive benefit. "Oh, I don't have to heal him as much as I was expecting because the bubble absorbed some. You get a HL instead of FoL/DL, my good fellow!" Since you won't know the amount the bubble will cover (you probably won't be keeping up with the bubble amounts of 10/25 players in your head...nor could you case a heal on all those players within 6 seconds if you tried, regardless of your haste.)

So the bubble will be more of a perk, lowering how much you have to heal for, but won't likely factor into which heal you cast BEFORE they take damage. You'll just notice that after 30 sec, when the NEXT wave of raid damage hits, you have to heal 2-5 people for less. In this case, haste is BETTER because you'll be able to throw out more bubbles within the last 6 sec before the wave hits, meaning more bubbles will be active. Instead of 3-4 bubbles (non-haste HL/DL casts), you could have 4-6 bubbles due to haste!

...in this sense, haste scales POSITIVELY with mastery when you're raid healing, since you can have MORE bubbles up at the same time across different raid members.

Where haste scales negatively with mastery is when you're tank healing, and if you're tank healing, the bubbles will be next to trivial anyway unless they majorly buff the mastery/bubbles itself/themselves.

Now, as far as it goes, crit will NOT likely be overhealing in Cata. This is due to 100k health pools. :)

So I'd say stat priority will be thus:

Int (mana pool+SP+crit+regen...what's not to like?!)
Spr/Int until you feel comfortable with regen
Haste until GCD soft-capped

Int does SO many good things, it's far and away our best stat. Gem/enchant for it. Reforge Spirit. You may prioritize haste if you want until the GCD, but like hit for DPS, after the cap, haste isn't useful, so THEN you can pump your extra stats/gems/enchants into crit or MORE Spirit.

See, that's the real thing here, haste is better than a lot of things UNTIL the GCD cap. After that, you shouldn't stack any more.

...at that point, is it better to stack more crit for the extra healing/bubble size, or would it be preferable to simply stack more Spr for greater regen. More Spr means you can cast more FoLs if you need to instead. With crit, if you get the crit you need, yay! If not...corpse run!

Hm...I wonder...

But yeah:
Int > Spr till comfortable > Haste til GCD > MORE Spr or Crit (depending on play style) >> Mastery
Infusion of Light is really nice. It brings DL and HL to the GCD.

So what's the problem with it?

It's RNG. Until we get to 100% crit (if this was possible, I'd be telling you this is priority #1), we can't pick our spells with the hope that something crits. If you NEED an IoL proc to save someone, and it doesn't proc, then someone dies. This is bad. So in this case, you might as well be spamming FoL.

So if IoL procs, and it happens to line up with a sudden spike, awesome! Otherwise, you might as well use it with HL to save mana, or save it and see if a damage spike occurs in the next few seconds.

You do need some crit to keep conviction rolling. I have the math to show ~30% is roughly enough to keep it going.
Well... seeing as I can't actually play Cataclysm yet, then yes, I'm going to be talking about WotLK until next Tuesday.

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