Upcoming Siege of Orgrimmar Changes

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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These all seem like good change. From talking to 10 man raiders I'm not sure how needed the boss health nerf is. I wonder how many of those guilds still one healing are doing it because thats what Paragon did even if it isn't necessary for most groups. The add health nerf and p4 clump change help limit a lot of what made the fight harder on 10 man.
The iron star changes are certainly welcome and will be a nice quality of life change. The boss / whirling adds health change feels somewhat generous, but it'll speed up farm I guess.

Would really like to see a 'fix' for the Terrace of the Endless Spring 'afk strat'. I remember how quickly using Sacrificial Dagger on Malice was made impossible. Feels fitting that skipping that intermission not an option. It removes a large portion of the difficulty of phase 2. Sure, you'll have empowered desecrates coming out of that intermission and less damage on the boss, but with HP nerfs, it'll be even more forgiving to skip ToES now.
Honestly I think these changes show exactly why trying to design fights for multiple raid sizes doesn't work out. If everything has to be done by automatic ratios and you couldn't take a few minutes to think "hey wait, don't 10 man groups need 3 players to soak Malice? And didn't we specifically make sure the 25 man version was Malice total + 1 for Iron Stars? oh hey this might be a problem", then I guess the encounter design team just can't handle that much work.

The fact that solo healing even was a thing that was possible was also a ridiculous failure on the part of making healing interesting on Garrosh. There's no reason at all why there is literally zero raid damage for 45 seconds and then massive damage for 8. Even Wind Lord in HoF who was one of the burstiest raid bosses ever seen in terms of raid damage had his boomerang blade and the initial impact of Wind Bombs to do some damage between the giant Rain of Blade AoE.

It's nice that you're fixing it now, but Garrosh has some pretty glaringly obvious basic design flaws like not comparing the right numbers and forgetting the random unavoidable small raid damage mechanic that every boss basically needs to remain interesting. I mean it's about as bad as forgetting the mechanic that makes 2 tanks necessary. It seems like trying to balance 4 difficulties across everything from 10 to 25 man has really messed up your work load.
The Minions of Y'Shaarj hp reduction should also be applied to 10 man normal in my opinion. The same issue happens there.

The add to player ratio combined with random movement due to dodging the swirls results in players going for the same add at the same time long enough that there are a couple unattended adds left over that all run to the same person immediately, whoever has the most healing aggro (often the tank if they're a pally). This clumps the adds up and pulling them apart and killing them fast enough is very very hard.

Too many comps simply don't have the instant stuns and roots to keep them from ever clumping. Many kills come from burning multiple defensive and offensive cool downs on dealing with the first (and only) set of adds in phase 2 and then having a tank take all the adds in phase 3 while the other tank has the boss and killing Garrosh before the tanks can take no more.

To me this doesn't seem like the intended tactics and forces a higher than intended dps check on the fight. It also allows for potential 'rng kill's by just getting lucky with how well dealing with the adds can go for groups unable to hit phase 3 with only one empowered whirl every time but it basically means wiping until it you get lucky enough, a miserable strat.
This is a really good way to nerf the instance, instead of DS/ICC-style. We're just about to get to Garrosh, hopefully we start pulling him next week so this may affect us depending on when this patch arrives.

Even if we fail to kill him before this change comes in, I won't feel like our accomplishment will lack legitimacy if we only get him after it comes through. I'm pretty sure this is statistically the hardest boss in the history of the shared lockout after 5 months - and it'll still be plenty hard after these come through. I get the sense that this heroic FoS will be preserved for those who pay the price for it, and that's a really welcome change of direction after how DS played out.

I really like the difficulty buildup of this instance, and how there are very hard bosses besides just the final one - but you can gear up for them pretty well with a solid size of easier bosses. It makes it so people who don't kill Garrosh won't feel like they haven't been progressing, which in the big picture lets you keep bosses as hard as Garrosh this long. It shows you guys have learned from the years. Keep it up!

Now if you could only give us racials that prevent ~70% of top-1000 guilds being Horde, then I'd say Watcher for Prez.
02/14/2014 10:16 AMPosted by Hartlis
Would really like to see a 'fix' for the Terrace of the Endless Spring 'afk strat'. I remember how quickly using Sacrificial Dagger on Malice was made impossible. Feels fitting that skipping that intermission not an option. It removes a large portion of the difficulty of phase 2. Sure, you'll have empowered desecrates coming out of that intermission and less damage on the boss, but with HP nerfs, it'll be even more forgiving to skip ToES now.


They already said via Twitter that they didn't see a terribly awful advantage gained by skipping ToES due to the obvious drawbacks of Garrosh gaining 60 energy during the phase. It does stand to reason with the nerfs to 10-man that 10-man will have it much easier, but the ToES strat is also valid on 25-man, which isn't being changed and as such still retains the previous "difficulty" of taking the 60 energy by avoiding doing the intermission.

The drawbacks still exist regardless; I think the entire point is to remove the pressure to 1-heal the fight. Obviously guilds currently working on it will find it much easier, which is the same thing that happened when Blackfuse was nerfed. That can't be avoided. Guilds that reach the fight after the changes, though, should feel it is less of a wall.
02/14/2014 10:34 AMPosted by Congelatore
02/14/2014 09:57 AMPosted by Watcher
In the upcoming patch 5.4.7, we will be making a few small adjustments to the 10-player Heroic Garrosh encounter. There a few factors that contribute to a disparity between the difficulty of the encounter in 10-player mode versus 25-player mode, and these changes are intended to help correct for those differences.


This is why you should have just left the PvE model from TBC alone. Just have 1 main raiding difficulty (25-man, or, now with WoD 20-man) that's insanely hard and fine-tuned (e.g., Sunwell) and for the casuals just have the Flex option.

You've diluted the content among 4 tiers of difficulty and multiple lockouts and it's been nothing but a failure. I am hoping WoD fixes everything so that people who quit raiding because of the changes have a reason to come back.

That's probably true. On the other hand, I really like having four different tiers just from the standpoint of having more stuff to do and more options for where I can go to gear up. I know I'm not at the ultra-high end of the raiding and expertise spectrum, it's just that I like having more options. When I've knocked out our guild 10m, I still have something I can do to knock out some time on the weekend, for instance.

I don't presume to know the correct solution, but I do feel that up and getting rid of tiers without doing anything to make up for it might be a misstep.
Too soon Blizz, too soon! But you gotta do what you gotta do :(
Garrosh at the moment for my guild is everyone having to min/max and concentrate 100% to push dps checks. With these nerfs they can kinda slack off a bit more and not have to worry about missing a check. Our last progression night we were able to push dps from starting out at going into the second intermission phase at 34% to our best attempt at 23% in one night! There was no doubt in my mind that we could of gotten that sub 20% sweet spot to be able to skip intermission two. Its these types of fights that I really enjoy, where everyone is on top of their game for the entire fight, everyone is on the edge of thier seats to make sure they do their rotation perfectly or making sure to keep someone alive during a sticky spot. Again I think these nerfs are a a bit quick, but we all knew they we're coming.
Just now I can't say I killed Garrosh pre-nerf :( (did get siegecrafter though!).
Now I'm curious why 25H Lei Shen was never nerfed, if difference in difficulty is concerning. o.O
I guess it's only a bad thing if 10H is harder.
Solo healing being the reason is a farce, it's not the first time a hard 10H boss has been solo healed by a few guilds, and most still 2 healed it, don't see the problem here.

On the off-chance that the devs are serious about de-incentivising solo heailing, HP nerfs to garrosh don't seem like the best way to go. Currently, if we solo heal with a disc priest we can push p3 before the 2nd intermission. If we 2 heal we can skip the 2nd emp whirling in P2 and P3. During progression we dealt with 2 emp. whirls in p2 and p3 each, which is a fairly large jump in difficulty and raid cooldown demand.

Lowering Garrosh's P2 health by 5% makes it more feasible, considering the average gear level of a guild now getting to Garrosh, to push phase 3 before 2nd intermission by solohealing. Then you only have to deal with the one empowered whirling in the entire fight.

The clump change is whatever, 10 mans dealt with malice #4 just fine. This will probably cause us to wipe from not spawning a star a few times though :C
02/14/2014 10:16 AMPosted by Hartlis
Would really like to see a 'fix' for the Terrace of the Endless Spring 'afk strat'. I remember how quickly using Sacrificial Dagger on Malice was made impossible. Feels fitting that skipping that intermission not an option. It removes a large portion of the difficulty of phase 2. Sure, you'll have empowered desecrates coming out of that intermission and less damage on the boss, but with HP nerfs, it'll be even more forgiving to skip ToES now.


I don't know if there is necessarily an elegant way to fix it. It's a tradeoff - you essentially trade not doing the intermission for having to handle 1 more empowered whirl. If they did something like wipe the raid if Garrosh isn't interrupted by the time the Intermission ends, then you would likely see one of two things happen:

1. People would do the intermission - but super slowly - maybe 1 or 2 packs at a time such that they end it towards the end of the timer.

2. The new strategy would become to use Hero in the beginning of p2 in order to avoid the intermission altogether. (Or maybe some length of time before the intermission such that they still have some of Hero for the start of p3 - depending on how good DPS is.)

The problem is that the 50/75 energy checks really don't mean that much or change the fight in any significant way. Intermission 1 works because beating 25 energy is necessary for a kill. Beating 50/75 isn't.
That'd be a shame if you could hero at the start of P2, not get TOES, and do P3 before the 2nd EWC. No adds at all until P3. Fights do change over time like that though, for one reason or another.
"That'd be a shame if you could hero at the start of P2, not get TOES, and do P3 before the 2nd EWC."

You were already able to skip the terrace phase even without Bloodlust. My guild actually had this happen numerous (10+) times, even with 2 healers. The fight in general is quite poorly tuned on 10 heroic.

Good changes Watcher, but you kind of waited too long to fix this for some guilds. The significant disparity between 10 and 25 on this fight was obvious months ago.
02/14/2014 12:01 PMPosted by Digerati
That'd be a shame if you could hero at the start of P2, not get TOES, and do P3 before the 2nd EWC. No adds at all until P3. Fights do change over time like that though, for one reason or another.


We could do that right now if we solo healed. Easily. If we had two damage-healers on roster and in the group, we could do it while two healing without any trouble. One of our comps right now pushes sub 20% with decent trinkets with no damage healers. So yeah.

After this change, it'll be trivial for us to skip terrace short of 3 healing it (lol).

02/14/2014 01:58 PMPosted by Lothrik
Good changes Watcher, but you kind of waited too long to fix this for some guilds. The significant disparity between 10 and 25 on this fight was obvious months ago.


This, I suppose. I guess it was inevitable that Garrosh would get nerfed on 10, but it does seem like changes of these sorts should've probably happened sooner if the intent is to bring parity to kill rates - I'm pretty sure when the 25-v-10 leaderboard was something like 15 25 kills in US to 5-10 on 10, that should've been an indication that something was out of whack.
02/14/2014 11:20 AMPosted by Evry
Now I'm curious why 25H Lei Shen was never nerfed, if difference in difficulty is concerning. o.O
I guess it's only a bad thing if 10H is harder.

Well, I would assume the same reason they didn't nerf 10H Sha of Fear. Different development strategy and/or different leadership.

I honestly have not raided this tier and cannot comment on Garrosh, but I would probably be a disappointed raider.
02/14/2014 11:20 AMPosted by Evry
Now I'm curious why 25H Lei Shen was never nerfed, if difference in difficulty is concerning. o.O
I guess it's only a bad thing if 10H is harder.

I feel that 25H Lei Shen was about where it needed to be in terms of difficulty. There was never any way they were going to balance both versions of the encounter given its mechanics.

On the other hand, 25M Sha and Garrosh were clearly not difficult enough with several mechanics you could simply ignore.
02/14/2014 04:17 PMPosted by Tobin
I feel that 25H Lei Shen was about where it needed to be in terms of difficulty

10H Garrosh isn't that different in terms of pull counts. hence, what's the problem with it, if 25H LS taking ~300 pulls was okay.
02/14/2014 04:25 PMPosted by Evry

10H Garrosh isn't that different in terms of pull counts. hence, what's the problem with it, if 25H LS taking ~300 pulls was okay.


How many pulls 25M Lei Shen took on average is pretty irrelevant to a discussion about balancing 10v25 Garrosh. The 25-man version should have been more difficult from the very beginning....it's the final raid encounter of the entire expansion.

"this is just bringing the encounter in line with its 25-player counterpart."

If you want to discuss how to balance 10v25 Lei Shen, have fun. I can't think of a good way considering the basic encounter design.
02/14/2014 04:45 PMPosted by Tobin
The 25-man version should have been more difficult from the very beginning....it's the final raid encounter of the entire expansion.

"this is just bringing the encounter in line with its 25-player counterpart."

If the 25-man version should have been more difficult, why do we need to have the 10-man version brought down?

The point is, tier end bosses end up more/less difficult in one raid format. That's the nature of having split raid sizes. Why is it a problem if 10H is more difficult? The fight has glaring design issues in both formats, definitely.

re: lei shen - nerf 25H ball lightning damage by 10-20% and nerf Static Shock damage or reduce the # or damage of bouncing bolts so you can level SS first. It doesn't really matter though, it's not like these 10H Garrosh nerfs make the fight "just like" 25H.
It seems pretty obvious that equalization between formats was and is still their intention as long as the content is current. Garrosh itself does not have design issues other than whirling corruptions not doing enough damage and clump check discrepancies with the 10M version. The latter was addressed.

Which 25M guilds had trouble with Ball Lightning again? Seems like everyone just AoE deathgripped and stunned them a couple times before they died. Static Shock? 25M had more freedom to overload 1-2 quadrants with groups that didn't have immunities. There was never a need to do what Paragon did with a couple of people taking diagonal gateways between quadrants.

In fact Garrosh is the least dissimilar end boss in MoP between the 10M and 25M formats. Will of the Emperor? Ring of Frost, Deathgrip spam? Empress? 4-healing with 2 disc in a 10M? Sha, 10 people dealing with 3 huddles vs 25 people ignoring 5 huddles? Lei Shen? Bank on having enough immunities and classes that can beat helm of command on their own?

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