Ret PvP: As bad as it sounds? Yes

Paladin
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02/12/2014 02:27 PMPosted by Lobster
02/12/2014 02:08 PMPosted by Randarion
Male BE violently reacts to any insinuation that Retribution needs help, devolves to charcter attacks and buries head in sand in abject denial.

Excuse me tentacle friend, the only thing that should be buried here is your belief that ret itself is the problem. Ret isn't perfect by any means but 90% of the problem is you, guaranteed.

Bull the Draenei is correct sadly i used to love Rets now when do you seem them in Raids, RBGS, and Arenas except out of pity
02/12/2014 07:35 PMPosted by Incendavis
Bull the Draenei is correct sadly i used to love Rets now when do you seem them in Raids, RBGS, and Arenas except out of pity


It might be pity in your case but more of the world top 50 H garrosh kills had rets than didn't, and those guilds do not bring pity slots to world firsts.
Some moron didn't read the thread title.
More abilities =/= bigger toolkit.

Knowing when and where to do what and how makes a world of difference. Playing ret is like a dancing. Wizzing in and around your environment with sparkling finger tips until you see weakness in your enemy's footing. It's so beautiful.... the feels!

Your're doing it wrong.
Let me tell you something, as a Shaman, you would be surprised how many times I got trained to death with CC, that is it for all classes if you can't land the first CC.

Now on the MooNews, Goldshire has reported an increasing sight of Horde members. Witness says: "It's at day or night, you can always see them lurking and killing low levels, ITS AN ABUSE!".
On the next block: "Why should I take Blacksmithing?", we'll answer all your questions here, on the MooNews.
I'm fairly new to Ret PVP in MoP, but I'm starting to feel like Ret is meant to be played as more of a support melee and defensive class.

Granted what I'm about to say may not be necessarily true at high ratings, but let's list some of the utility/support Ret can provide:

    Off heals with Selfless Healer
    Freedom
    Cleanse
    BoP
    Ranged Snare
    Ranged stun and a blind
    Great kiting potential for a melee
    Sacrifice which, when glyphed, can really take pressure off a teammate that's getting trained


Sure, a better CC break or an undispellable CC would be awesome, as would maybe better damage, but Ret also has some awesome on-demand burst. I feel like if you're running 3's, Ret is meant to do two things: support your team and use their burst wisely to force CD's.

Once again, most of this is just from watching streams and my limited PVP experience at 90 on a Ret, but I honestly think those that are saying the spec is garbage are exaggerating a bit.
02/13/2014 07:34 AMPosted by Patri
Off heals with Selfless Healer
Freedom
Cleanse
BoP
Ranged Snare
Ranged stun and a blind
Great kiting potential for a melee
Sacrifice which, when glyphed, can really take pressure off a teammate that's getting trained


A few points.

-Selfless Healer offheals can be nice yes, but if you are keeping teammates alive with it successfully, then frankly you are fighting a group of fools as anyone worth their stripes would be singling out the Ret Paladin as the easiest kill target, rendering Selfless Healer essentially useless.

-Freedom is nice granted, but as mentioned most melee DPS haver their own pseudo version of this ability now and do not require it nearly as much as they used to. As well, a Holy Paladin can also bring it.

-HoP only really works if your teammate is a healer/caster and only if the people pressuring are melee. And frankly, taking another DPS with a Disarm accomplishes the same thing with a far lower CD.

-Cleanse is no longer a Retribution ability, it is Holy-only.

-Retribution no longer has a ranged snare, at least not in a form that is debilitating. Whereas it used to have the Burden of Guilt talent that allowed Judgement to snare for 12 seconds, now it's only means of doing so is taking a Prime Glyph slot with Burden of Guilt which only allows Judgement to snare for 2 secs. Versus its previous itteration, 2 seconds is simple to ignore.

-Fist of Justice is powerful no doubt, but then again practically every melee has a version of this give or take a few seconds, not to mention many have a specific way to break it while you don't. As for Blinding Light, its actual utility is rather limited as it is mostly relegated to relieving pressure off of you temporarily or hitting a group clustered up because of it's exceptionally long CD. In comparison, something like Remorseless Winter for example not only has half the CD, but stuns all its targets. Bottom line is many other DPS have better versions of Blinding Light.

-Can you kite pretty good? Sure. But ask yourself, why is that a good thing? As a melee, you're job is supposed to be getting in peoples' faces not running away. If you're better at running away than running after someone, that doesn't speak wonders about design.

-Sacrifice can be very helpful, particularly when you Glyph it, but since Ret Paladins are almost always the first kill target, the odds of being able to use it as such are rather limited unless you are fighting fools. As well, since Holy Paladins also have access to Sacrifice and do not require wasting a Glyph slot to use it effectively, they are inevitably the better choice. Not only that, with abilities like Karma, you can help prevent damage to your teammates in addition to damaging your opponent.

The sad truth is while this repetoire is not horrendous, it is far better suited to a Holy Paladin if Paladin utility is sought after since it is at its core defensive based with little to no offensive capability, which is why you bring another DPS if you want pressure without the babysitting.
I'd have to agree that Ret in specific doesn't actually add much in terms of utility, as most of the same utility can be brought by a Holy Paladin, who happens to be a healing juggernaut with plate gear that has superb mana efficiency.

While Ret can be good in some comps, Holy is much better which to me would be sad, if I didn't actually enjoy pvp healing.
Burden of Guilt + Long Arm of the Law + short Judgement CD = great kiting and catch-up ability
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you use BoP to essentially cleanse things like Karma off your partners?

Sure, there probably aren't many reasons to take a Ret Pally over a Holy Pally in arena, but that doesn't mean that their outlook is as grim as you make it out to be. Just roll a warrior and get it over with.
02/13/2014 08:49 AMPosted by Randarion
-Retribution no longer has a ranged snare, at least not in a form that is debilitating. Whereas it used to have the Burden of Guilt talent that allowed Judgement to snare for 12 seconds, now it's only means of doing so is taking a Prime Glyph slot with Burden of Guilt which only allows Judgement to snare for 2 secs. Versus its previous itteration, 2 seconds is simple to ignore.


Even when BoG was a talent everyone with a brain was still using FoJ.

02/13/2014 08:49 AMPosted by Randarion
-Cleanse is no longer a Retribution ability, it is Holy-only.


What are you talking about?

02/13/2014 08:49 AMPosted by Randarion
-Can you kite pretty good? Sure. But ask yourself, why is that a good thing? As a melee, you're job is supposed to be getting in peoples' faces not running away. If you're better at running away than running after someone, that doesn't speak wonders about design.


I honestly don't mind kiting as a melee but that's just me.

My problems with your suggestions on the front page is giving us more offensive capabilities when our issues at the moment are defensive. Battle Fatigue is really killing our defenses we have to heal through our damage instead of a traditional D stance, our closest thing we have is glyph of TV which pisses me off.
02/13/2014 09:15 AMPosted by Patri
Burden of Guilt + Long Arm of the Law + short Judgement CD = great kiting and catch-up ability
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you use BoP to essentially cleanse things like Karma off your partners?

Sure, there probably aren't many reasons to take a Ret Pally over a Holy Pally in arena, but that doesn't mean that their outlook is as grim as you make it out to be. Just roll a warrior and get it over with.
What? First you say that our "our outlook isnt as grim as you make it out to be", then you tell the guy to give up and roll a warrior.

How about this? Maybe Blizz could put some care into Ret and make a decent and wanted spec. How about that?
Only reason I told him to roll a warrior is because he obviously hates the Ret spec and really wants to play a warrior. I mean, I don't blame him, warriors ARE fun.
02/13/2014 11:18 AMPosted by Patri
Only reason I told him to roll a warrior is because he obviously hates the Ret spec and really wants to play a warrior. I mean, I don't blame him, warriors ARE fun.


Totally agree with this, Warriors are a blast to play.

Its simply because they have the tools to compete in the pvp meta game, ret does not.

Warrior

-high sustained damage
-great burst
-great peels
etc etc

Ret
-Great burst
-next to no self healing with BF and soon to be even less next patch
-5 minute dis spellable major defensive CD
-next to no peels
-hand spells are dis spellable.
-horrible mechanic (forbearance)
-no snare
-low sustained damage.

Its pretty pathetic how just pvp and class/spec balance in general clearly was not a priority in this game from the get go otherwise this $%^% wouldn't happen.
02/13/2014 11:18 AMPosted by Patri
Only reason I told him to roll a warrior is because he obviously hates the Ret spec and really wants to play a warrior. I mean, I don't blame him, warriors ARE fun.
Nonsense. Anytime anyone doesnt agree with the Blizzard apologist they say we hate the spec.

How about we love the spec and only wanted to be treated fairly. Some of us are sick of being the worst spec every patch. Doesnt mean we want to be OP just mean we want some fairness.

You sound like those that tell people to get out of America if they dont agree with everything. Well, dissension, protest and desire for improvement is in the fabric of this country
02/13/2014 11:52 AMPosted by Agincourt
02/13/2014 11:18 AMPosted by Patri
Only reason I told him to roll a warrior is because he obviously hates the Ret spec and really wants to play a warrior. I mean, I don't blame him, warriors ARE fun.
Nonsense. Anytime anyone doesnt agree with the Blizzard apologist they say we hate the spec.

How about we love the spec and only wanted to be treated fairly. Some of us are sick of being the worst spec every patch. Doesnt mean we want to be OP just mean we want some fairness.

You sound like those that tell people to get out of America if they dont agree with everything. Well, dissension, protect and desire for improvement is in the fabric of this country


Warcraft isnt a Democracy or even a Republic
02/13/2014 11:53 AMPosted by Chaz
...Nonsense. Anytime anyone doesnt agree with the Blizzard apologist they say we hate the spec.

How about we love the spec and only wanted to be treated fairly. Some of us are sick of being the worst spec every patch. Doesnt mean we want to be OP just mean we want some fairness.

You sound like those that tell people to get out of America if they dont agree with everything. Well, dissension, protect and desire for improvement is in the fabric of this country


Warcraft isnt a Democracy or even a Republic
Thank you President Jeffereson
[quote="117526875454"]
You sound like those that tell people to get out of America if they dont agree with everything. Well, dissension, protest and desire for improvement is in the fabric of this country


Man, when did WoW get so real?
All re-rolling points aside, i agree with the OP.

Our damage is comparatively low, and yes; i said comparatively because when speaking in terms of balance there has to be a control group, a set standard on which to base a system of checks and balances. There is nothing more frustrating than the idiocy that bleeds through the whole "St0p Compar1ng cL4as5es!" comments.

We have a good burst, for sure, there is no denying that; but we are susceptible to hard locks, such as fears. Honestly, fears are enough here. We no way of breaking a fear outside of a trinket (which is pointless because for SOME REASON fear is spammable and with no gap closers there is nothing paladins as a whole can do about it other than waste our preciously few ranged cc... the only ranged cc we have.) or bubbling.

Our pressure damage is miserable, anyone who says otherwise is either facing undergeared opponents or is fooling themselves. And pressure damage here does not mean auto attack people, i feel like there are some who honestly believe that this is what i am talking about. Our damage outside of burst is low, whether that is due to not having a filler ability or just improper scaling/mastery distribution, that is the case.

Our defensives are peelable, our bubbles stealable, and our off-heals un-feelable (i just wanted to make it rhyme right there, but seriously, Battle Fatigue is bad news.

There are changes that could be made, such as those suggested by the OP, that would bring our class back on to the playing field. I can't imagine PvE paladins would be against a buff either, it seems they honestly only care when something is nerfed (aka the BULL call that Blizz made when they removed the initial warrior changes. There was flames people, the pve community was in a damned uproar.)
02/12/2014 07:49 PMPosted by Cayse
02/12/2014 07:35 PMPosted by Incendavis
Bull the Draenei is correct sadly i used to love Rets now when do you seem them in Raids, RBGS, and Arenas except out of pity


It might be pity in your case but more of the world top 50 H garrosh kills had rets than didn't, and those guilds do not bring pity slots to world firsts.
PvE =/= PvP

02/12/2014 02:01 PMPosted by Lobster
Male draenei complains that he can't faceroll and the game is too hard, makes really bad suggestions that would destroy everything ret has evolved into over the years and turn it into a DK, news at 11.
The sad part is that this is a thought out post of issues in current PvP, and you just write it off as "l2p nub, ret is fine". el oh el
02/13/2014 07:36 PMPosted by Holymez
PvE =/= PvP


The guy mentioned raids in his whine, perhaps you should read comments first

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