Simplifying currency? That's the grand plan?

General Discussion
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03/03/2014 08:30 AMPosted by Bashiok
We're not quite ready yet to talk specifics, but the plan is not to just remove currencies, let bonus rolls stay as-is, and expect everything will work out fine. We're keenly aware of how gearing works in the game. I think the changes we have planned will assuage your fears once we are ready to lay it out.

(It's pretty cool. I think you'll like it.)

How is this going to affect buying heirlooms? If you guys are changing currency or getting rid of it all together, how are we suppose to purchase old vendor items for transmog?
03/03/2014 09:29 AMPosted by Daìdalus
03/03/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
(or in the case of character models, actual butts).

Speaking about butts, hows the night elf model?

They're a little behind.
03/03/2014 05:02 PMPosted by Crenzz
I wish Blizzard would stop posting half-ideas and making people wait for more.

That is what I see if the BIG problem here. They're giving us "half" the picture, which is leaving us afraid or outraged. Or in some cases both.

"Removing All Currency except whatever is used to buy 'Bonus Rolls' "

If a Player said something like that here it'd be considered Trolling. That's just asking for a war to erupt.

Maybe they'll have decent catch up mechanisms and our worries are just us worrying over nothing. But when they just say "don't worry, you'll love it!" ... it just doesn't built the kind of trust it USED to.

Maybe it'll suck hardcore and we'll be stuck with RNG on Normal dungeon runs until we get enough gear to hop into LFR (for the non-hardcore). Maybe they'll have an interesting and dynamic method that will give us SOMEWHAT of a safety net in case of bad RNG hitting us.

Recently, had FIVE bonus rolls before I got something on the sixth. That's just bad. But I know folks who've gone for a month straight, burning all their "seals" and getting nothing. ((an an example of how even Bonus Rolls can still Blow hardcore)).

Maybe it'll be somewhere between decent catch up system and hardcore suckage. But right now, we have nothing more than "You'll like it! We Promise! Trust us!"

Sorry, we've heard similar quotes from politicians who then went and gave us the shaft.
03/03/2014 05:03 PMPosted by Asamof
the RNG suspense is what keeps people addicted whether your like it or not, much like people addicted to gambling

blizzard will never remove the rng aspect

That's fine. There are also other mmo's people will go to. They wont get rid of it because they are a subscription base company. Guild wars 2 , Rift and lord of the rings online have a much better loot system and ways to obtain gear i'm sure wild star will be the same. The random loot is terrible in this game. If you raid every week and get nothing you should have a higher roll chance. The lucky get gear the unlucky start to quit raiding. see it all the time. Done it on one of my toons got pointless putting in aggravating time in lfr for nothing week in and week out
03/03/2014 05:22 PMPosted by Therapys
There are also other mmo's people will go to.

And there's one they will come back to.
03/03/2014 04:38 PMPosted by Frostwynd
03/03/2014 03:38 PMPosted by Towercontrol
RNG isn't a fun mechanic. Probably one of the biggest reasons I like gearing up late in the expansion through PvP is so I don't have to deal with range. Got 2500 conquest? Cool, I can buy that chest piece I want. Imagine RNG in real life. "Honey, can you pick up some toilet paper at the store?" "Sure." Half hour later. "Well, I got a box of waffle mix instead. Hope that works."

I know. That's why lottery sales are at all time lows and why gameshows no longer exist. Not to mention collectible card games and the various mystery packaging type collectible items. RNG is commonly seem in forms of entertainment and reward systems within real life.

i think he worded that wrong to mean RNG isnt a rewarding mechanic. In that you put in your work, the time to get consumables, learn the fights, get into your raid all get to the door go in, kill everything over many many hours, then leave, empty handed.

a better compare would be going to work, doing what you do and at the end of the week your boss gives you: 2 movie tickets and a cake of soap! congrats! Slightly off yes but its the same principal, esp for the more dedicated raiders. They can put in as much effort on thier heroic modes as they do during the day in thier real worklives. Only they get paid each week for working, you may not get paid ever in wow, depends on the number generator
I TOTALLY agree with you Ash, the RNG is absolutely abysmal, but at the same time, I really feel like you and I just have horrible RNG, some of my friends took less than 2 WEEKS to fully gear up both tier pieces from the world bosses included and raid MSV, I actually dont know if I would like it to be so streamlined though, I mean if everyone had an equal RNG it would make the game alot less appealing I think, it just sucks that we have horrible RNG is all :(
If bonus rolls are replacing valor items then fml. I went from September 2013 until February 18th 2014 before I saw A thok's tail tip drop, and i raid 25 man which have far more drops per boss than 10 man. This is a horrible idea, I ran with Skeers Bloodsoaked talisman. SKEERS. It's barely better than Ji-Kuns fabled feather. What a joke.
The Devs said themselves we think it will be cool.

I have had this theory for a long time, and I hope it is what they are referring to.

As you run a wing, RNG should simply be, Yes or No. If yes, you receive a token. After each wing, you can go to a vendor, and turn in that token for any piece of loot that drops within that wing, therefore, you are gearing yourself rather then a system doing it for you.

That concept really seems like a win for us, the players, as well as a win for Blizz, the makers.


03/03/2014 08:30 AMPosted by Bashiok
We're not quite ready yet to talk specifics, but the plan is not to just remove currencies, let bonus rolls stay as-is, and expect everything will work out fine. We're keenly aware of how gearing works in the game. I think the changes we have planned will assuage your fears once we are ready to lay it out.

(It's pretty cool. I think you'll like it.)

You certainly have a challenge on your hands, to come up with what appears to be a LFR style drop mechanic that is an improvement over the current system.

That said, let's take a look at what Mr. Hazzikostas was quoted as saying.

“We are planning on simplifying our currency structure,” lead encounter designer Ion Hazzikostas told PCGamesN.

In the current system, players running the latest raid bosses earn valor points, while those playing lower tier raids and dungeons earn justice points. Both can be exchanged for gear if raid bosses fail to drop the loot you’re after - but Blizzard believe they’ve become unnecessary.

“The traditional role of valor was to offer compensation for bad luck - and that goes all the way back to badges in Burning Crusade,” said Hazzikostas. “Where you’d go, ‘Okay, I’ve run this raid 15 times now and never seen a shoulder piece dropped - so I’ll take this currency and buy a shoulder piece for myself’.

“The bonus rolls system that we have these days actually goes a long way towards helping counteract that.”

The bonus roll system, introduced in patch 5.0, allows players another chance at a boss’ loot table upon completing a raid. With each roll, the chances of getting an item appropriate to the player’s loot specialisation increases.

“We think we can take the bonus rolls system and make it a little bit more intelligent, so that it tries to avoid giving you duplicate loots - and allow that to be the way players counteract bad RNG,” explained Hazzikostas. “It removes a little bit of the grind and a little bit of the awkwardness of the current valor system.”

Emphasis mine.

The section I've highlighted will be absolutely crucial in making this a success. Let me repeat that. Ensuring that I have either a 100%, or at least a much higher chance to get loot that has not dropped previously will do a great deal to make this a system that feels useful.

Another item that you may want to consider addressing, assuming it's not already being looked at is the streakbreaker. In particular, how many streakbreakers we have.

"Now that's an odd question." I hear you state. What does she mean by that? Consider the following problem. Right about now, my number 1 top priority is dropping the tier shoulders either from the celestials or from Blackfuse. (*) However, I'm faced with the following dilemma, and I don't even know if it's a problem or not.

(*) Why do I want them? I have 4 tier pieces now: flex head, normal gloves, chest and legs. However I have the BIS (according to AMR) non heroic legs in my bank: Desirae's Dashing Leggings, which I can't put on until I replace the non-tier shoulders. Hence the 565 equipped out of 566.

Do I have a single streakbreaker for all rolls on all bosses, or does each boss maintain its own private streakbreaker? The reason this is a concern is that if there's only one streakbreaker for all bosses, given the priority I have, it makes it extremely undesirable to drop a roll on Ordos for the neckpiece which is also BIS (according to AMR), because if I get that roll, I've just tanked any chance I might have had at getting the roll from Blackfuse.

Therefore, in addition to <quote>making it a little bit more intelligent</quote> regarding avoiding duplicate loot drops, please consider adjusting it so that each boss has their own private streakbreaker.

Failure to do so actually leads to a system that can be gamed. It's not a coincidence that I say this, because I work on a game that has streakbreaker tech for fairly rare drops, and with three "tiers" of items that can drop: easy, medium and hard, we realized very quickly that we needed to have separate streakbreakers for each tier to avoid this problem.

If there's a single streakbreaker for everything, then right after a successful bonus roll drop, I know that my drop chance is the worst it can be. Therefore I burn a few bonus rolls on junk bosses (e.g. T14 LFR), to consume the low probability rolls, before returning to rolls for items I care about.
Bonus rolls suck. I've never gotten anything but gold for it, and even the gold is laughable.
I just hate how after several weeks of raiding I finally win a loot roll off a boss, but it gives me the 1 item that I already have out of the 5 I need.
How is killing a raid boss 15 times with no loot and getting either the wrong item or gold from bonus rolls and have NO other options?

How stupid!

Are you not aware that people who raid like to get gear? So if they won't be able to get gear for even longer period of time what will they do?

03/03/2014 08:30 AMPosted by Bashiok
We're not quite ready yet to talk specifics, but the plan is not to just remove currencies, let bonus rolls stay as-is, and expect everything will work out fine. We're keenly aware of how gearing works in the game. I think the changes we have planned will assuage your fears once we are ready to lay it out.

(It's pretty cool. I think you'll like it.)
your bonus roll system sucks plain and simple. ive use my coins for weeks on end and ive only coined 1 item. I don't expect loot every week but maybe once a month would be nice.
lol Damn I feel sorry for Blizz they just cant please anyone around here. Guess some of these guys should make a WoW junior and show them how its really done.
03/03/2014 08:30 AMPosted by Bashiok
We're not quite ready yet to talk specifics, but the plan is not to just remove currencies, let bonus rolls stay as-is, and expect everything will work out fine. We're keenly aware of how gearing works in the game. I think the changes we have planned will assuage your fears once we are ready to lay it out.

(It's pretty cool. I think you'll like it.)

My questions don't have to do with character progression, but rather with the purchase of old gear that uses these currencies, primarily for transmog. I understand you can't go into specifics, but I just want to know that you are considering these issues.

Currently with old gear (BC, WLK, Cata) there are vendors that sell pieces for Justice or Honor Points. Some of these vendors also sell tier pieces for Justice or Honor points. Are you going to keep these vendors in and provide an alternate method?

Also, currently you can exchange JP for HP and buy old PvP gear, including outdated PvP gear from previous expansions, which can be used for transmog. Are you going to provide an alternate purchase method for these items, or force people to PvP for transmog items?

If you are going to make all of this old gear purchasable for money, that is perfectly fine with me.
03/02/2014 08:11 AMPosted by Nymph
Take away currency?


Take away RNG. It's an obsolete artifact.

The first set of polyhedral dice was developed specifically for Dungeons and Dragons in 1974, using a set of platonic solid shapes manufactured for a science course. This obsolete "tool" was dragged into computer games and called RNG. It's the cornerstone of PvE in this game and IMO is OBSOLETE and should be removed because all it does is introduce Fake Difficulty.

When you play a video game, you expect be able to use your skills as a gamer to beat whatever challenges the game throws at you. If the challenges require a lot of skill, the game is hard to win. If it doesn't require much skill, it should be an easy game.

However, in Warcraft, a game in which most PvE is relatively easy, the task is made quite hard thanks to RNG - Random Drops which result in a player lingering in an area for a long period of time trying to get the drop. Unlocking a door by solving a color puzzle the first time is real difficulty. Unlocking it by pressing a button until you get the right number is not. Killing a heroic boss the first time is real difficulty. Pecking at that same boss each week hoping it will one day drop the one item you need to complete your set is not. Instead, it is fake difficulty.

Just because a gameplay feature is annoying and frustrating does not make it difficult.

RNG doesn't make PvE "harder".

It just makes it stupid.

Please, Blizz... instead of using RNG to extend gameplay, how about improving the boss AI (artificial intelligence) to the point where the encounters become sufficiently dynamic that players wish to repeat them - not as a Pavlovian response to RNG - but because they want to. Don't continue to resort to obsolete polyhedral dice to keep players coming back for more.

IMO, Blizzard should strive to make PvE just as repeatable as PvP where players find ancient maps like AV, WSG, AB, etc infinitely re-playable because each time you play, you face a dynamic and unpredictable opponent - as opposed to scripted and static PvE.

Let's pump some intelligence into that PvE AI - let's wake them up (and dump the crutch of RNG)
This is an inherently sensible idea.

Having said that, an unpredictable AI for bosses will explode these forums with so much whaaaa. :)
I'm sick of bonus rolling because the boss dropped gold only for my bonus roll to be more gold. You get 3 bonus rolls each week... there's no feeling of progress for the time you put into the game when all you net for raiding some weeks is a couple hundred gold.
03/03/2014 01:08 PMPosted by Kavaja
Can you guys please allow trolls to wear boots that cover there feet, its freakn ugly and makes transmog pointless on a troll. maybe make it a toggle or something but please make it happen. i love trolls but i cant get my head past the ugly !@#$ feet
I was around when currencies where announced as a way of compensating for bad luck on rolls. So I get that.

I was also around when bonus rolls were introduced, and saw the negative affect that double negative has on players. Just look back at the forum posts. So building a new reward system around the bonus rolls feels to me as if blizzard just didnt take any of that feedback onboard.

That aside, it sounds like a major change and I trust it has been well thought through. Now its a matter of wait and see before throwing out judgement.

Heres my feedback on the system right now though. It better feel rewarding for tasks accomplished and not just a new way of rewarding a timeless grind.

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