Simplifying currency? That's the grand plan?

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03/02/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Sayne


Umm, they are telling it what not to drop so you get the upgrade you want more frequently with your coin roll. That coupled with the increased chance to get loot on a boss when using a coin every week does lower the chance of bad rng substantially.


Alright, let's look at that.

For each item on the table they all have an equal chance to drop with gold getting a slight priority.

Week 1 - You loot every boss and you add in a coin roll on 3. (Since you only get 3 per week.) On 6/6 bosses you get gold on everything including the coin roll. Awesome! That means that next week I should get at least 1 item!

Week 2 - You loot every boss and you add in a coin roll on 3. On the first boss you get an item! Woot! On every other boss and coin roll you get gold.

Week 3 - You loot every boss and you add in a coin roll on 3. On the first boss you get ANOTHER item but nothing on the rest of the bosses.

So you've gotten 2 items in 3 weeks on the first boss when the items you really want are on the last boss. See the problem? Unless the rolls are individually tailored to EACH boss and EACH boss has a separate "phail" loot roll each week you end up running into a problem. This has been me on several characters. Yes I got an item but my luck always happened on the first boss. That's great when I wanted the trinket from immersius. What happens when I want the weapon from the third boss?

The protection boost on each boss is great if it's only tied to EACH boss. When it's a raid wide boost then it will fail most times simply because of the fact that you'll get the bumped up item chance on a boss you don't want it on more times then you get it on one you want.

03/02/2014 08:42 AMPosted by Egram

Even on the off chance this is all true (this is the internet you can say you have done all this). Can you put a link to a blizz post saying this is the ONLY change they are making to loot for all WoD to put this one change in context for the bigger picture of looting. No you cant because that post is not out there IT WAY TO EARLY to say the sky is falling bout every little post.


Even if this isn't the only change that they are making I'd rather they read it and understand some of the frustration I feel. With almost no options in crafting, no options in Valor catch up, and them wanting to rely solely on something that I've come to hate with a passion, it's a horrible combination in my mind. I would rather they work on improving the quality of more aspects of the game instead of trying to make raids their end all be all. I like doing raids, I'd much prefer if there were other options for progression as well so I can do multiple things.
People (AKA the players and PAYERS) like the currency model as a fallback. I hope the devs don't seriously believe that bonus rolls provide an adequate replacement for it. It sounds like it's time for someone to stop and consider that if subs go down drastically during the next expansion, people at Blizzard will lose jobs(and not just CSR jobs).
Blizz is just terrible. No one there actually plays. They don't realize that when we need bracers, we need bracers, NOT rng. Oh, great, now we'll have absolutely NO control over gearing our toons. Sounds like fun.

With all the changes they've mentioned, I see my 6+ years is just about done. It doesn't sound like a game I'll want to play anymore. It got bad in cat, stupid in mop. I should thank them for letting me know ahead of time to look for something new to do..

: )
03/02/2014 08:51 AMPosted by Faustz
ITT: people crying about not getting loot when they want it.


You read absolutely nothing of what I posted did you? At least others had the decency to and had well thought out reply's.
Many months ago during raid, a guild member of mine suggested something really good.

Neither of us had seen a single piece of gear in 12+ weeks, even with bonus rolls and running flex.

His suggestion was to have 'gear scraps' inside all those bags of gold (or sent to your bags when you roll in normal raid). After you collect X amount of scraps, you can turn it in for a piece of gear from the vendor. Even if it were a 'lesser' quality tier piece, we'd be grateful.

Seriously, all these months of raiding and I personally can't get tier to drop in SoO, even with bonus rolls. I know I'm not the only one either.
03/02/2014 08:51 AMPosted by Faustz
ITT: people crying about not getting loot when they want it.


Out for an early Sunday morning troll, Faustz? Lovely day for it.
Not to be THAT guy but am I the only one that thought I was finally going to get paid for dancing on mailboxes and KEEPING my armor on?
03/02/2014 08:28 AMPosted by Ashendal
If it's a boring model why was it instituted in the first place and has been in place for years? It was put in place because of player grief during the first iteration of the game. When the second came along they saw how frustrating it was and attempted to fix it. If they've attempted it for so long leave the "boring" in there since obviously it's alright with players.

That's also the problem with the RNG. I have spent hours upon hours with multiple characters doing things RNG related. It's boring. If I do the same raid on 6 different characters is it "new and exciting!" or is it as boring on the second one as it is on the sixth? Having another option is good in that it allows you to run the raid over and over and over. If after 4 weeks of trying nothing has dropped you'll still be able to get something for your trouble and not sit there in old gear like a lump.


There are two points to be made here.

1. They acknowledged that they've found a better solution in tweaking the RNG factor.

2. They've also acknowledged that the currency approach added undesirable traits to their MMO approach.

You have to run the same raid on 6 different characters today as well. So that point is moot. I agree that running scripted content again and again is boring. I argue all the time the MMO should be more sandbox than script. However, that is a larger argument in scope which doesn't pertain to this discussion.

I've no doubt that the first iteration of the game had progression issues. It was the first iteration after all. That said, I like the Timeless Isle approach way more than I like the badge and raid approach. This change pushes us closer to that style and I like it.
03/02/2014 08:46 AMPosted by Ashendal
Even if this isn't the only change that they are making I'd rather they read it and understand some of the frustration I feel. With almost no options in crafting, no options in Valor catch up, and them wanting to rely solely on something that I've come to hate with a passion, it's a horrible combination in my mind. I would rather they work on improving the quality of more aspects of the game instead of trying to make raids their end all be all. I like doing raids, I'd much prefer if there were other options for progression as well so I can do multiple things.


I guess that if you hate RNG this game might not be for you.
03/02/2014 08:46 AMPosted by Ashendal
Unless the rolls are individually tailored to EACH boss and EACH boss has a separate "phail" loot roll each week you end up running into a problem


They do.
03/02/2014 08:48 AMPosted by Cadavette
Blizz is just terrible. No one there actually plays. They don't realize that when we need bracers, we need bracers, NOT rng. Oh, great, now we'll have absolutely NO control over gearing our toons. Sounds like fun.

With all the changes they've mentioned, I see my 6+ years is just about done. It doesn't sound like a game I'll want to play anymore. It got bad in cat, stupid in mop. I should thank them for letting me know ahead of time to look for something new to do..

: )


You make a great point about how LFR works. Unfortunately raid loot has worked the same in the past. Ex: An item drops nobody needs so it gets disenchanted. Everyone has been there before. It sucks but that's always been the way it worked.
03/02/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Orcmourne

There are two points to be made here.

1. They acknowledged that they've found a better solution in tweaking the RNG factor.

2. They've also acknowledged that the currency approach added undesirable traits to their MMO approach.

You have to run the same raid on 6 different characters today as well. So that point is moot. I agree that running scripted content again and again is boring. I argue all the time the MMO should be more sandbox than script. However, that is a larger argument in scope which doesn't pertain to this discussion.

I've no doubt that the first iteration of the game had progression issues. It was the first iteration after all. That said, I like the Timeless Isle approach way more than I like the badge and raid approach. This change pushes us closer to that style and I like it.


I'll withhold full judgement until the expansion actually comes out and they've fully revealed what this "new grand RNG tweak" is but from my experience you can only teach something that doesn't want to learn so much until you hit the wall of what it can take.

I'd be more ok with something akin to timeless isle since there is the randomness that the game has to have but it's tempered with the fact that there's enough so that you aren't completely screwed if the next 12 cloth bags only give you bracers. If that's sorta what they are trying then that might work but if it's the same stuff they've been using...yeah it's going to suck when it doesn't turn out to work well.

03/02/2014 09:02 AMPosted by Sayne

They do.


Really? Then why was I still not getting loot on the same boss for weeks? Something doesn't add up here.

03/02/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Egram

I guess that if you hate RNG this game might not be for you.

Why is that always the pat response when something is brought up that's a valid concern with new content? There's a lot more to do then raids, they just need to expand upon it.
The way I see it, they have too many forms of currency right now as it is. You have currency fir cookng, dungeons, Hdungeons, PVP, TI and more.
They need to do is make some of them account wide, like the. cooking ones.
PVP is fine
The Ti keep separate (or not), but make the items you can buy account bound. They did it for the armor, why not the weapons.
Just do away with justice points and only have valor. But make a valor quartermaster that has cheap valor gear for the up and coming characters and filler items for getting into heroics.
Keep the Heroic gear and Raid filler items for valor but keep those rather expensive and rep bound. But DO NOT lock reps behind other reps. Cata had it about right for rep gear.
03/02/2014 08:33 AMPosted by Stendarr
03/02/2014 08:28 AMPosted by Ashendal
And how is that grind any different from grinding mats for a profession or grinding points for an item? It's not.


Because having it be a matter of chance based on an RNG actually feels like a game. You go into a dungeon, and if luck comes through for you, you get an awesome reward. And it's all fun and exciting. With valor and justice though, what do you do? You put in a certain amount of time, you receive currency, you use currency to buy an item. That's not a game, that's a job! I already have one of those! I like the excitement of an RNG.


I am glad you have a good time with RNG, I am not being snarky. I don't because I do not like to raid, dungeon, etc.

I geared via valor this expansion with a few oddball pieces from scenarios and *ugh* lfr then when I was content with my personal progression and ability to handle the world, I quit using group content.

RNG is nothing but gambling. I do not like to gamble. I would rather kill 500000 mogu and get a guaranteed piece I needed than deal with rng or other people.

I like dailys and rep grinds, I like doing my own thing, and if the only way to gear now is to do raid content, I will not be renewing.

I get a lot of personal satisfaction when accomplishing such grinds, I guess it might be my work ethic, but logging in, having to rely on other people, deal with drama and BS or just the sociopaths/creeps in the automated group content makes me sick, grouchy and is ZERO FUN for me.

But I will wait and see, I am not going to go off the handle until all is said and done. Actually, I won't say a word if WoD doesn't meet my criteria, I just won't buy it.

Also, the post on crafting is spot on.
03/02/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Egram
03/02/2014 08:46 AMPosted by Ashendal
Even if this isn't the only change that they are making I'd rather they read it and understand some of the frustration I feel. With almost no options in crafting, no options in Valor catch up, and them wanting to rely solely on something that I've come to hate with a passion, it's a horrible combination in my mind. I would rather they work on improving the quality of more aspects of the game instead of trying to make raids their end all be all. I like doing raids, I'd much prefer if there were other options for progression as well so I can do multiple things.


I guess that if you hate RNG this game might not be for you.


RNG is fine, up to a point. But If I am wearing the super pants of coolness, and I win the super pants of coolness again in LFR and then use a bonus roll and win the super pants of coolness again, SOMETHING IS WRONG.
03/02/2014 09:08 AMPosted by Ashendal
03/02/2014 09:02 AMPosted by Sayne

They do.


Really? Then why was I still not getting loot on the same boss for weeks? Something doesn't add up here


For a person that said they work with rng you don't have a strong grasp of statistics. Your individual sample size is much too small to disprove anything.

It depends on how much it increases per fail as well. 5% a failed roll increase and after 'weeks' if failed rolls you might only be up to 30-35% chance to get loot with that coin roll. That assumes it is additive and not multiplicative as well. Those things can be easily tweaked to increase gear chance as well.

Does it bother no one that valor isn't getting you gear right now anyways and that this isn't even a substantial change from the current set up?
They should make it like FF14 does it and you can raid the bosses as many times as you want but you are only allowed to loot 1 raid item per week.

So if I have an item off Garrosh I really want I can keep running Garrosh till taht item drops and I can get that 1 item, but then I cannot loot any other item till the next week.

This makes it easier to cherrypick what items you go for, but it also means that it takes 3 full months to get a full epic'd character.

So it's a double edged sword. Sometimes you get might get lucky and get 2-3 items a week (or more), but with FF14 you will NEVER get more than 1 item per week, but you can decide what taht one item will be (assuming you run the raid enough).
03/02/2014 08:52 AMPosted by Ashendal
You read absolutely nothing of what I posted did you? At least others had the decency to and had well thought out reply's.


I did actually are pretty much all your complaining boils down to is being upset because the loot won't be in your bags as quickly or easily as you wanted it. Honestly if they went back to where crafted gear was any good, and hence required you to endless farm just to get one upgrade (i.e. 40 felcloth and 20 demonic runes for 1 BoP epic robe), and 100% sure you would still complain.
03/02/2014 09:13 AMPosted by Sayne

For a person that said they work with rng you don't have a strong grasp of statistics. Your individual sample size is much too small to disprove anything.

It depends on how much it increases per fail as well. 5% a failed roll increase and after 'weeks' if failed rolls you might only be up to 30-35% chance to get loot with that coin roll. That assumes it is additive and not multiplicative as well. Those things can be easily tweaked to increase gear chance as well.

Does it bother no one that valor isn't getting you gear right now anyways and that this isn't even a substantial change from the current set up?


You implying I don't have a grasp of it also implies that you think I have no concept of the changes they made to make a higher chance to get. Yes I do have a grasp of it. The problem with your examples is they don't match up together. If each boss has a boost to their individual loot tables then each week I try there should be a measured chance to get loot that is increased either by adding a straight percent on top or multiplying the percent into it. Since I, and many other people, have repeatedly tried to go after bosses, on many different characters and accounts, and kept turning up nothing even with "fail protection" after 2 months the additional chances either are not enough or they do not reset by boss and are instead raid/wing reset.

That would imply that you get a chance per wing in LFR or Flex at a piece of loot so once per week you have a higher chance on any boss. If it was on each boss and you got no loot on any boss 3 weeks in a row each boss should have the same chances to get loot as every other one and should be able to each drop a piece on every kill. The problem with your inference is that that isn't the case. If it was then there would be a marked number of people that consistently get loot from every boss that they haven't gotten after 3+ weeks of trying and getting nothing on regular and coin rolls. Since there isn't the premise isn't working.

03/02/2014 09:18 AMPosted by Faustz


I did actually are pretty much all your complaining boils down to is being upset because the loot won't be in your bags as quickly or easily as you wanted it. Honestly if they went back to where crafted gear was any good, and hence required you to endless farm just to get one upgrade (i.e. 40 felcloth and 20 demonic runes for 1 BoP epic robe), and 100% sure you would still complain.


No, I wouldn't. I like having a time table where I can be sure to get gear. If I get a random piece before that point, Great! If I don't then I'm assured to get bracers if I need bracers. If I get a pair before I reach the end of the crafting cycle to get an item I can divert those mats into something else so that I can upgrade the boots or shoulders that didn't drop where the bracers did.

I enjoy crafting. I like farming for mats and doing something every day because it keeps me interested. Doing a raid for 2 hours and then being done for a week is neither involved nor keeps my attention. If I have a crafting project that takes two weeks then I'm much more likely to want to play because it means that the 2 hours I spent on wednesday might have gotten my nothing but next saturday I've got a new shiny item!

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