Forget the Forsaken, what about the orcs?

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Why aren't people asking some pointed questions about how the orcs are behaving in Cataclysm? The Forsaken at least have the dubious excuse of the alternative being extermination. On the other hand, the orcs of the Horde (specifically the ones presently in charge; not all orcs are evil psychotics) are attacking...why, exactly? What's their objective? What's their casus belli?

The impression I've formed so far appears to be that their objective is war for glory's sake. Maybe you could even go so far as to say they need more territory, but that seems dubious at best. It seems more that they're out to avenge vaguely-worded grievances and to win glory in battle more or less for its own sake. Fine, glory wars aren't that uncommon among relatively tribal cultures (as the orcs originally were), but now they're taking that concept and applying it to a huge scale with the mentality of total war.

And the orcs currently pressing the attack seem determined to live up to every single ugly orcish stereotype from the Second War back. Where are Thrall's noble shamanistic orcs now? The ones attacking Maestra's Post's idea of quarter is "Surrender and I'll make sure you die quickly!"

Everyone's complained at length about how the Forsaken behave, and rightfully so. But why are Garrosh's orcs being called anything less than murderous warmongers and aggressors? It's as if every victory by sane orcs like Varok Saurfang and Thrall has been employed only to glorify the hawkish types who weren't even on the front lines (lookin' at you, Garrosh).

Is this going to be a plot element? Or have the developers simply decided it's time for an evil Horde again?
The impression I've formed so far appears to be that their objective is war for glory's sake. Maybe you could even go so far as to say they need more territory, but that seems dubious at best. It seems more that they're out to avenge vaguely-worded grievances and to win glory in battle more or less for its own sake. Fine, glory wars aren't that uncommon among relatively tribal cultures (as the orcs originally were), but now they're taking that concept and applying it to a huge scale with the mentality of total war.


If you read the shattering you'd know the orcs are basically starving, and need materials to build homes, and Ashenvale has everything they need.
You may not have noticed, but the Barrens are now a far lusher savanna. While it's quite possible that the orcs are short on food and wood, there are greener pastures than invading a forest out of the vague hope that you could clear-cut the forest, then start planting crops, and eventually, two or three years down the line, have a harvest.
Because when an Orc kills you, you stay dead. They're respectful like that.
Because when an Orc kills you, you stay dead. They're respectful like that.
Yes, because one form of no-quarter slaughter is so much more honorable than the other.

I'm not quibbling over the war itself or arguing that the Forsaken are moral superiors. I'm asking: Are we supposed to see Garrosh as an antagonist, a tyrant to be overthrown alongside his gang of warmongering maniacs? Or are we simply supposed to shrug our shoulders, toss the generation of orcs who actually built something greater than an engine of slaughter into the dustbin, and embrace the new Evil Horde 2.0?
I dislike the word 'evil' being used in this term. It implies we are putting our own morale belief system onto a fantasy race that has no such ties to what we believe.

In short, no, the Orcs are not acting evil. Savage, yes. Lust for war, yes. These actions - in themselves - are not evil. Evil is Gul'dan selling his race out for personal greed and power. Evil is Aedelas Proudmoore kicking an Orc prisoner so bad he nearly died. Fighting a war to win and revelling on combat isn't evil, it's Orcish. Prowess through battle, honour through death.

Fighting the Alliance doesn't make them evil, no more then the Alliance fighting the Horde makes the Alliance evil. Bombing an innocent camp with children is evil. Kicking a prisonder blind is evil. Fighting in battle, for war, isn't.

But the Alliance will want to believe they are, both in-game and out. It lends validity to the fight they are having, which is fine. But don't make the mistake of calling the ENTIRE Horde evil. Warcraft doesn't have such black and white statements when it comes to the playable races, even the Forsaken are just a VERY dark shade of grey.
Korall, what else do you call an aggressive war against another side with questionable goals at best, resulting in widespread slaughter and destruction, orphaning families, getting good men and women on both sides of the field killed, all so the leader in charge of one side can win more accolades to his name? Especially when said leader is also spitting on his predecessors, who actually forged the alliance he's leading into ruin, and doesn't even really have a coherent reason to dislike the other side.

If a show war intended purely to stroke a leader's ego isn't evil, what is? Especially when the soldiers of said war attack without offering quarter or terms and fight to the annihilation of the other side? It may not be Dark Lord burn-the-world evil, but it's still very much evil.
You may not have noticed, but the Barrens are now a far lusher savanna. While it's quite possible that the orcs are short on food and wood, there are greener pastures than invading a forest out of the vague hope that you could clear-cut the forest, then start planting crops, and eventually, two or three years down the line, have a harvest.


actually they mostly hunted in ashenvale before the nelves kicked them out.

i really don't see why they can't just use the barrens though. if anything, there's plenty of quilboar.
Yeah, you guys invaded the Barrens...remember?

Any-who I'm kind of liking the new Tolkienesque style of orcs. Going across the land devastating the local races and such. Heres a deal, you let us Chop down Teldrassil you can keep moonglade. Haha not really but, seriously that would be some damn fine Chairs made from that wood.
The orcs may rampage across the land, they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR CHAIRS! Orgrimmar shall go chairless! If you want to sit, you'll have to go to take a zeppelin to Brill!
Korall, what else do you call an aggressive war against another side with questionable goals at best, resulting in widespread slaughter and destruction, orphaning families, getting good men and women on both sides of the field killed, all so the leader in charge of one side can win more accolades to his name? Especially when said leader is also spitting on his predecessors, who actually forged the alliance he's leading into ruin, and doesn't even really have a coherent reason to dislike the other side.

If a show war intended purely to stroke a leader's ego isn't evil, what is? Especially when the soldiers of said war attack without offering quarter or terms and fight to the annihilation of the other side? It may not be Dark Lord burn-the-world evil, but it's still very much evil.


Warfare? What do you want them to do, just sit back and wait for the Alliance to decimate their lands and put them all back into internment camps? Do you think the Alliance is the only side with parents getting killed? Do Orcs reprodue by Mitosis perhaps? War is hell for both sides and both sides got TRICKED into starting the war again.

The war was declared - initially - by Varian in Wrath. Then there was peace. Then Twilight Cultists - in the guise of the Horde - attacked and SKINNED an Alliance patrol. What followed was exactly what the Twilight Cult wanted, which was open warfare between the two factions. Does it suck? Yes, it absolutely does. But the Orcs are not evil for PARTICIPATING in it. If they are, then the Humans are evil for invading Durotar, or for sacking Taurajo, or any other act of WAR that both sides have perpetrated.

Garrosh has plenty of reasons to hate humans, if you have read and understand what we know of him. He despises cowardice and everything he has seen of humans, he thinks of cowardice. Sure, he loses his temper and some of the time he is flat out wrong, but he isn't evil for thinking all humans are gutless cowards who would stab you in the back as soon as look at you, just as Varian isn't evil for thinking that all Orcs are demon-addled harbingers of destruction who eat babies. Both of them are wrong, but not evil. Admittedly, he is probably not the most ideal of leaders at present, but to say he has NO reason to hate the humans is not speaking with any real knowledge on the matter.

If you need to believe the Orcs are evil, then fine. You wouldn't be alone in thinking that. But I will disagree with it because I simply do not believe it is true that a race is evil because they participate in a mutual war. War is war.
The orcs may rampage across the land, they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR CHAIRS! Orgrimmar shall go chairless! If you want to sit, you'll have to go to take a zeppelin to Brill!


Can we at least keep our Big Boy Beanbags? I love those things.
You may not have noticed, but the Barrens are now a far lusher savanna. While it's quite possible that the orcs are short on food and wood, there are greener pastures than invading a forest out of the vague hope that you could clear-cut the forest, then start planting crops, and eventually, two or three years down the line, have a harvest.


1. If you're talking about that crazy nightmare growth nothing in there is safe to eat.

2. Durotars new watershed is a very recent development, I think the war started around the same time we got it, and alliance had already invaded.

3. The idea isn't to invade ashenvale for food, but for the ore (We have a mine in splintertree) and wood to build houses, which are also needed, though we wouldn't be cutting as many down if you weren't in the trees shooting at us ironically.

4. In Stonetalon Krom'gar says people aren't starving, so it's WORKING
Garrosh has plenty of reasons to hate humans, if you have read and understand what we know of him. He despises cowardice and everything he has seen of humans, he thinks of cowardice. Sure, he loses his temper and some of the time he is flat out wrong, but he isn't evil for thinking all humans are gutless cowards who would stab you in the back as soon as look at you, just as Varian isn't evil for thinking that all Orcs are demon-addled harbingers of destruction who eat babies. Both of them are wrong, but not evil. Admittedly, he is probably not the most ideal of leaders at present, but to say he has NO reason to hate the humans is not speaking with any real knowledge on the matter.


So somebody isn't wrong for declaring and prosecuting a war based entirely on racist prejudices? Garrosh doesn't even have the excuse of being personally wronged by humans in any way. He lived his life in Outland, and then he came roaring out with a massive axe to grind against every human or enemy of the Horde as if he had personally suffered every day in those internment camps without, you know, having taken place in the Second War. He doesn't even have the excuse of Varian's personal sufferings at the hands of the Old Horde.

I'm just asking: Is Garrosh's reign, and its new warmongering ways, the new norm for the Horde? Or is he being set up as an antagonist to be overthrown? I'd really prefer the latter, of course.
Can we at least keep our Big Boy Beanbags? I love those things.



COWARD! No... we fight for OUR chairs! Down with Nordrassil! down with Teldrassil! Down with anything ending in assil! Humans sit on their little Elwynn forest lumber chairs, pfft, Orcs only sit on magical chairs made from trees of Immortality and dyed in purple nelf blood with a nice blue space goat blood finish. Man that'd be beautiful...anyways! For the chairs!
So somebody isn't wrong for declaring and prosecuting a war based entirely on racist prejudices? Garrosh doesn't even have the excuse of being personally wronged by humans in any way. He lived his life in Outland, and then he came roaring out with a massive axe to grind against every human or enemy of the Horde as if he had personally suffered every day in those internment camps without, you know, having taken place in the Second War. He doesn't even have the excuse of Varian's personal sufferings at the hands of the Old Horde.

I'm just asking: Is Garrosh's reign, and its new warmongering ways, the new norm for the Horde? Or is he being set up as an antagonist to be overthrown? I'd really prefer the latter, of course.


We're not arguing if someone is wrong. Your argument was that they are evil. If you want to go down the wrong path, then yes, I think Garrosh lost his temper and lashed out and he should have kept his cool, though to be COMPLETELY fair we don't know who, precisely, started the war back up. There was a big debate on the forums a while ago over who actually started the new war and it was never resolved, so to call Garrosh the primary instigator is false. The best we could come up with was "The Twilight Cultists framed the Horde, things went downhill from there."

The Humans were trapped in Draenor for how many years before the Dark Portal reopened? It's inconcievable to think that he and the humans didn't clash during that time, considering a human would not know the significance of a brown orc versus a green orc. It would be a combination of a lot of things that would colour his current perception of humans, we just don't have backstory for him that details it like we do with Varian.

I think Garrosh still has a lot of room to grow in. I think it was said at a Blizzcon that they had some big things planned for his current outlook on life. Whether it is for good or for fill remains to be seen.
Can we at least keep our Big Boy Beanbags? I love those things.



COWARD! No... we fight for OUR chairs! Down with Nordrassil! down with Teldrassil! Down with anything ending in assil! Humans sit on their little Elwynn forest lumber chairs, pfft, Orcs only sit on magical chairs made from trees of Immortality and dyed in purple nelf blood with a nice blue space goat blood finish. Man that'd be beautiful...anyways! For the chairs!


What you got against talbuks?
There isn't a single Human camp in Nagrand, none of the Alliance offensives involved Nagrand, and I think the Humans had their hands full maintaining Honor Hold / Allerian Stronghold / Wildhammer Stronghold / Kirin'var (sp) Village from the Fel Orcs / the Demons in the area.

The Mag'har where in hiding until the Dark Portal reopened. Guess they heard about it and set up camp in Hellfire to check it out.

EDIT: In response to Korall.
There isn't a single Human camp in Nagrand, none of the Alliance offensives involved Nagrand, and I think the Humans had their hands full maintaining Honor Hold / Allerian Stronghold / Wildhammer Stronghold / Kirin'var (sp) Village from the Fel Orcs / the Demons in the area.

The Mag'har where in hiding until the Dark Portal reopened. Guess they heard about it and set up camp in Hellfire to check it out.

EDIT: In response to Korall.


So you're telling me the Alliance never scouted, never searched, never looked for anyone? I find that incredibly difficult to believe. Garadar isn't exactly difficult to miss, it's a big freakin' village!

Also, Allerian Stronghold was under no threat from the Fel Orcs until after the Portal opened. I refuse to believe the Mag'har Orcs and the Humans NEVER encountered each other in a guesstimated decade of being sealed in together.

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