The problem is...

General Discussion
Edit: I posted from an alt to avoid conflict. I'm properly gemmed/enchanted etc 8/14 heroic, carry on :)

----

I'm lost, I'm utterly and hopelessly lost.

It's not "Blizzard's fault" or "lack of intelligent design on part of the developers", and it's not about "flying in WoD" or how to "improve PVP."

It's us, the playerbase. I know how to navigate wow, raid, even pvp (well, at least once upon time, been a while), but I don't know how to navigate this community any more.

My prime initiative in this game is to defeat raid content. It is really the sole reason I continue to play. A long time ago it became clear that in order to defeat raid content, I had to find the right group of people.

But people are finicky, they get married, have kids, people come and go. The game is still here, flying is still here, pvp is still here and raid content is still here. It's here more now than ever. There is everything from pet battles to raid content that only a small minority of the community can (or has) defeat(ed). I'd say that's a large margin to work within. It's not up to them to nerf content, it's up to us to rise to it.

Everything in this game is achievable, but it takes the right people, with the right drive, ambition, schedule-matching (that's a big one), and ability.

How do I find such a group? Let alone... how do I find such a group that matches my maturity expectations? People say they are out there, but most are either not recruiting, or not recruting my class. Is it time to switch classes? Is there a magic answer?

Create my own guild? Tried that.

What to do... what to do...

My experience in this game with other people is a strong divide between those who are dependable and those who are not. And it is this single thing, this measure of dependability that makes or breaks the game for many of us.

People

For many of you reading this, thank you for being awesome. For those of you also struggling out there, I challenge you to rise to the occasion. Support your fellow gamer by being honest and dependable.

When you join a guild, be honest with yourself. Are you there just to snag gear? Are you just "trying this out?" Are you really interested in becoming a member of the guild and contributing or are you just killing the next 3-6 months in between jobs, boredom, or whatever? Are you burning out and hoping for one last "hurrah?" Ask yourself if you can contribute to the guild and it's vision.

If you know you can, and you mean to contribute to the guild, stick to that promise. No road is perfectly smooth. There will be bumps, hiccups, success and failures along the way. Commit to the guild only if you can live up to the expectations set forth by the guild.

Guilds and Guild Leadership

You are the glue that makes the game work. In order for your guild to be successful, you need to be genuine with your recruits and your existing members. More often than not I find myself in a guild that advertises their intentions but exercises few. Be firm, follow through. Define your mission and stick to it.

I've seen some amazing guilds, with wonderful charters, carefully thought-out rank/loot/everything setup, beautiful websites and mature happy people at the helm that fold in 3 to 6 months because they don't have the stamina.

If you are going to lead a guild, make sure you are here for the long haul. It's okay if you want to try making a guild, but let your recruits know that this is something you are "trying" and be honest about your own stamina. Let them know what your breakpoints are or what would make you stop leading the guild.

Support performance. It's a very tricky thing to balance group progression against individual responsibility. Define clearly what your performance expectations are and stick to them when people do not. This requires having enough people to call others in.

Thanks captain obvious!

I've been looking for a guild for 6 years. That's right, 6 years. I've been in a handful (5 or 6) during that time, and none of them have this formula right. Well, they have the formula right but in execution... I facepalm. If more guilds had this formula right, how many would be 14/14H right now? What is the overall percentage of success in the game?

It's ATROCIOUS. I don't blame the developers or the difficulty, it's people and their inability to work together and follow-through. Those who have achieved have figured this out and are making it work.

Internally we know what we should do, yet we do not do it. Why?

Because we are people. At the end of the day no charter, policy, intention or other human construct is perfect or infallible. People, and their situations change.

So why this wall of text? This is a call to action for all players. Start thinking about what you want out of the game and be genuine and honest with others when you embark upon a mission to defeat the game content. Be dependable, reliable, and above all be in frequent communication! If you are getting burnt out or "not feeling it" then tell someone, don't stick around and soak gear or try to get that one more heroic kill, tell someone now so they can work on replacing you!

Maybe once we realize the problem is us, not the game, we will master it.
Hey, you're on my server! We're doing a guild flex every Sunday in an effort to gear and train more raiders with an eye toward expanding our raid team when flexible raiding is expanded in 6.0. I'm not going to click through all your alts, but if you are trying to get in a guild on the mage you're posting with, you really need to clean up your armory. It's not encouraging to me as a recruiter when a potential recruit is missing that many gems and enchants.
I posted from an alt to avoid upsetting anyone in my current guild, I'm 8/14 heroic at this time and... this isn't an LFG post, but thank you Trist :)
I've been looking for a guild to call home since my guild of 3 years broke up at the end of Cataclysm. It sucks... nothing is the same anymore, I never feel like I fit :/
You're right. A successful guild has a formula, but the catch is, every guild's formula is slightly different. That's why it's so hard to find just the right one for you.

Back in BC I was in a guild that was beyond awesome. We all got along great, and had a blast raiding. We progressed at a decent rate for a casual guild. Unfortunately, the guild leader was a weiner, and allowed too much drama to unfold between members (mostly loot drama, and varying ways of deciding who gets loot that week) because he didn't want to get involved. At the height of the drama, a couple of guildies decided it would be a funny joke to "rob" the guild bank and pretend they were hacked, putting us through several days of misery trying to get all of our mats back together. Then, the two peabrains admitted it was a joke, and the guild leader... allowed them to stay in the guild. I moved on very shortly after that.

In order for a guild to really work, everyone has to be on the same page, and led by someone who isn't afraid to lead. When it comes down to it, there aren't many people cut out to run a raid guild. Many aren't even cut out to run a guild of any kind, since you still do need to put forth some effort towards the success of even a basic guild.

Anyways, I liked your post. ^_^
03/18/2014 07:41 AMPosted by Emellea

In order for a guild to really work, everyone has to be on the same page, and led by someone who isn't afraid to lead. When it comes down to it, there aren't many people cut out to run a raid guild. Many aren't even cut out to run a guild of any kind, since you still do need to put forth some effort towards the success of even a basic guild.

Anyways, I liked your post. ^_^


This! I feel like the responsibility of managing a successful guild is extremely overwhelming. Is that a game design flaw? I don't think so, maybe that just comes with the MMO genre? I don't have experience with other MMO's to compare.

Very salient point Em, thank you for replying :)
03/18/2014 07:40 AMPosted by Biv
I posted from an alt to avoid upsetting anyone in my current guild, I'm 8/14 heroic at this time and... this isn't an LFG post, but thank you Trist :)


Fair enough! It was a well written post and my guild is always looking for people like that.

All that being said, we've hit on a formula that works for us. We are very casual, and informal. We keep our guild moderately small, and aren't interested in filling the ranks with people who don't interact with their guildies. We are an entry level raiding guild, and have no delusions about our own skill level; but we are always open to training new people and creating the kind of raiders we want from the ground up rather than cycling through a bunch of people who don't work. I definitely think there's merit to focusing on forging a good team, rather than just collecting a bunch of all-star players who can't work together.
What you are describing is a difficulty that many deal with.

The best advice I would give is to network.

Use those flex runs or even alt runs to network with people. I found my first true home in a raiding guild because of a pug ICC heroic run. I was 9/12 normal at the time and impressed the RL so much he offered me a tanking spot in the guild he was leading. Pretty great, it's not always gonna be that easy, but it can be.

One other thing, regarding guild applications, be very honest about your expectations, and you will often have that same courtesy shown back to you. As a guild officer I get SO many applications that tell me nothing about the person. The app isn't just there so I can see your UI, logs, and Armory, it's so I can get a gauge of you as a person, to make sure you are going to fit in.

As an applicant, it's very important to pay attention to what is posted on the guild website. If the guild says they have a "locker room atmosphere" or a "mature adult atmosphere" you need to understand that those two are pretty different, and don't be shocked and appalled by an off-color joke.

Finding a fit in an everchanging world is tough, I've killed the last boss of three expansions now on heroic with three different guilds, Pandemonium in ICC, Awkward Silence in DS, and now Fatal Union in SOO, sometimes change is inevitable, but if you remain true to your vision and yourself, you will eventually find what you are looking for.
So basically people suck. Welcome to life. =P
03/18/2014 07:59 AMPosted by Kaine
So basically people suck. Welcome to life. =P


Mmm, no, I didn't say that. If you read between the lines I guess you could say some do, but it's not my intention here to belittle others. Rather it is to energize them to do right by others. If this post makes 5 people rethink their intention to gear soak or join a guild knowing they will likely burnout in a month, I consider it mission accomplished :)
03/18/2014 08:02 AMPosted by Biv
03/18/2014 07:59 AMPosted by Kaine
So basically people suck. Welcome to life. =P


Mmm, no, I didn't say that. If you read between the lines I guess you could say some do, but it's not my intention here to belittle others. Rather it is to energize them to do right by others. If this post makes 5 people rethink their intention to gear soak or join a guild knowing they will likely burnout in a month, I consider it mission accomplished :)


Relax. It was a joke.
03/18/2014 07:32 AMPosted by Biv
What is the overall percentage of success in the game?

It's ATROCIOUS.


The amount of successful 25-man heroic guilds is low. 10-man is even worse. There are 107 25-man guilds as of this post who have downed H Garrosh. Take these things into account.
- How many of those 25-man guilds are a language other than English?
- How many of those 25-man guilds raid at a time that you can personally make? (for me there's almost zero, and I'm unemployed - lots of east coast guilds 14/14H - I could do it but I won't be unemployed forever ... hopefully)
- How many of those are recruiting your class?
- How many of those are actually recruiting your class? (remember, a lot of guilds over recruit. even more sell recruits a different story from the interview than they'll get once they transfer.)
- How many of those guilds are going to be successful in WoD?

10-man guilds. It's worse. How many of those guilds are 25-man alt runs? How many of those guilds are a language other than English? (there's like a million foreign language guilds on top realms, including my own) e.g: Top 14 US 10 man guild is on my realm, Japanese language only, and is not even raiding anymore.

The pool you have to choose from as a raider is very low if you're looking for a specific environment of any kind. I would hope that in WoD the majority of issues with this are fixed. As someone who strictly enjoys the 25-man environment, this expansion has not been a happy one.
03/18/2014 07:32 AMPosted by Biv
What is the overall percentage of success in the game?

It's ATROCIOUS.


The amount of successful 25-man heroic guilds is low. 10-man is even worse. There are 107 25-man guilds as of this post who have downed H Garrosh.

...

The pool you have to choose from as a raider is very low if you're looking for a specific environment of any kind.


Thank you for pointing out this topic. Again, I don't want to point any blame toward the developers but, this is hard to ignore. At some point you have to balance that.

I find the timing of the eSport feedback on mmo-champ rather interesting. It seems people are talking and thinking about this generic issue:

Blizzard (and top-tier players) want this competitive atmosphere. They like rankings and identity as it relates to clearing their content. There is a very clear objective from blizzard to support this competition.

Unfortunately it's any guild that finishes 13/14H or lower (e.g. the vast majority) that is hurt by this. There are many guilds not in this for the competition but the experience, and to find a guild capable of clearing heroic content is so difficult in the midst of this, for all the reasons you pointed out and likely more.

Intelligent design would be to implement a competitive construct that does not bar others from clearing the content. If the content was easier, say 50% of guilds currently 6/14H could suddenly clear 14/14H... how could you still make this competitive? One idea would be to just implement timers. Take away certain battle res restrictions and other things that let the "worse" groups still come out with a win.

Make the measure of that best guild or #1 spot be:

We kill heroic garrosh in 5 minutes with 0 battle resses. Well okay yeah, we aren't that good, it took us 15 minutes and 6 battle resses. Who really cares? I mean really, who cares?

Take enrage timers out, every fight is so much the same right now all in the spirit of making sure we have a way to give players the competition we and they desire... but is it the right model? Fascinating topic!

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum