Prot pally help needed

Paladin
03/21/2014 01:00 PMPosted by Monzaligar
In the end, smooth and steady seems much better to me


DP is not smooth or steady though. It's proccy and random.
03/21/2014 01:06 PMPosted by Berith
DP is not smooth or steady though. It's proccy and random.

Idk, honestly during the first week of siege, while doing Garrosh, i actually switched from HA to DP simply because there were no parts of the fight where i needed a flat long coverage (esp the one that lasted for longer than i was holding the boss), which DP was much more efficient at smoothing out more frequent but more constant dmg.
Oh, in my sleep deprivation, I did make a booboo in the SW part, when I did the numbers for no-vial I also for some reason thought that meant AW would only have a 20s cd too, the no-vial numbers should have been 125% boost to hp generation with a 16.667% uptime which comes out to a 20.833% increase in uptime, or 67.13% uptime plus GC is 67.19% uptime without the vial.

03/21/2014 07:41 AMPosted by Rubert
Do the math for tanking Rook, i avg 65% sotr uptime on that fight.... I might be doing it wrong?
Probably just an issue of mechanics getting in the way of the rotation, such as when he splits there's a small gap before the adds spawn, and again when they all die before rook comes up, potential travel time to/from the adds. Getting stunned by vengeful strikes is likely to delay a generator or 2 (especially if using HA/SW you're likely to get stunned during their duration and get less out of them), etc.

03/21/2014 12:13 PMPosted by Liminara
Last i checked the average uptime with 50% haste + other shenanigans is 67%(I might be off but too lazy to re-check)
At the same time you can get higher uptime by getting good RNG when using HA (extra AS procs) or DP (just dp procs) or by abusing t15 - 4p on high dmg intake fights over short period of time (i think 25m H DA burn strats)
It's possible I made other mistakes in my math but the average uptime is most definitely much higher than 67% (well, in patchwerk style fight at least). If anything my math may be a little low, as my recent sims showed over 78.5% uptime with 25k iterations (with DP and 4p) and I only have 41% haste, so my sim results should have been lower than the ~77.5% I mathed above, but was higher instead.

And it wasn't the result of lucky procs. For one, 25k iterations will weed out RNG skewing of that size (talking about your claim that 67% was the best average compared to the 78% I got). Second, on a 450s fight that would average ~27 GC procs, while I averaged 24.3 GC procs. And as for DP procs, I averaged 119 SotR uses, 36 of which were DP procs, and cast EF 24 times. So 107 finishers not counting procs, 107 * 1.333 = 143, which is dead on to what I got.

03/21/2014 01:00 PMPosted by Monzaligar
Anyway, the main reason I hear for people using HA, and the reason I used it in T14 was because it's there when you hit a really heavy damage phase. However, few really heavy phases last even close to the duration of your 100% SotR and we have 3 other cooldowns to deal with these phases.
Having an extra cd is never a bad thing. And while heavy damage phases typically don't last that long, you can make a similar argument against DP as many of its procs will be wasted when you're not currently tanking.

Also, the reason that I use HA (when I use it) is more for the dps, as on that talent tier HA is the biggest dps boost for us (while DP is the smallest dps boost for us on that tier), while offering almost as much survival. So when I don't need every bit of survival I can get, I use HA for the throughput.
Squishy is not the right term I meant damage is spiky sometimes without SoTR up. Really its like that for all tanks
Ahhh, it was 67% w/o t16, with 4p it bumped up to ~83%
03/21/2014 01:06 PMPosted by Berith
03/21/2014 01:00 PMPosted by Monzaligar
In the end, smooth and steady seems much better to me


DP is not smooth or steady though. It's proccy and random.


DP may be proccy and random, but because SotR is not on the GCD, and refreshing it adds time the the shield buff without slowing your rotation and it increases up time on your shield it does help smooth out your incoming damage and make your SotR up time more steady. You could say then that DP is a proc that steadies your incoming damage by randomly smoothing your SoTR up time.
03/24/2014 11:43 AMPosted by Monzaligar
03/21/2014 01:06 PMPosted by Berith
...

DP is not smooth or steady though. It's proccy and random.


DP may be proccy and random, but because SotR is not on the GCD, and refreshing it adds time the the shield buff without slowing your rotation and it increases up time on your shield it does help smooth out your incoming damage and make your SotR up time more steady. You could say then that DP is a proc that steadies your incoming damage by randomly smoothing your SoTR up time.


You don't understand what smooth means if you think that. DP proc steadies damage on the short window where you get a string of SotR, so you get shorter, and longer, and sometimes no windows at all. Smoothness is about predictability and control. That's HA. DP is about TDR, but you do not choose when it procs. Smoothness is not calculated over 30 seconds, but over the entire course of a fight.

I like DP, I use DP, but let's not give it qualities it doesn't have. I've had fights with 0-2 DP procs and I've had 60 seconds of uptime on SotR from a long DP chain. That is not smooth at all.
Well, I'm looking at it like a road. The less potholes per mile the smoother it is. A road with 2 miles of perfect pavement in the middle starting and ending with 10 miles that's 50% potholes is not as smooth as a road that's only 40% potholes on average over 12 miles.

Anyway, if smoother isn't a word you'd use, so be it. But I think we agree that usually it's better than other talents at making you easier for the healers to keep alive.
Smooth would more like potholes every 50 meters. You expect it, it's there. You can anticipate it.

DP is like avoidance in a way. It's spiky. Gotta learn the lingo and not argue when flaws are pointed out in your use. This doesn't mean DP is bad. But it remains random and proccy, like dodge and parry strings.
HA master race.
03/25/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Pröcess
HA master race.


The DP Allies will destroy the HA Axis...WWPaladin has begun
Haha but seriously, I just wanna point out a couple of the merits of Holy Avenger.

Not only is it an incredibly powerful defensive CD (On par with Guardian IMO), it's also a very nice DPS and healing CD, which combined with high vengeance can make the difference in a tight enrage race or healing situation.

Additionally, the +30% dmg/healing is great for threat in annoying add phases (heroic immerseus?). If you're at high haste levels, you really don't need to depend on DP to keep EF ticking at 5 stacks and SotR up. And regardless, your rotation remains the same.

Just about every fight in SoO has a tank swap mechanic which makes HA incredibly OP for the limited amount of time you're holding the boss. This, combined with proper HP generation when it's on CD, makes it the go to talent IMO.

As for single tank situations, it's strengths (and reliability) cannot be overstated.
03/25/2014 10:03 AMPosted by Pröcess
Additionally, the +30% dmg/healing is great for threat in annoying add phases (heroic immerseus?).

Only on abilities that generate holy power. Aka no extra healing and minor dmg boost to HotR or cs (2 of our weakest hitting abilities), unless you get a lucky GC proc.
03/25/2014 11:11 AMPosted by Liminara
03/25/2014 10:03 AMPosted by Pröcess
Additionally, the +30% dmg/healing is great for threat in annoying add phases (heroic immerseus?).

Only on abilities that generate holy power. Aka no extra healing and minor dmg boost to HotR or cs (2 of our weakest hitting abilities), unless you get a lucky GC proc.


Right, but if I'm swapping to adds after a corrosive blast, a +30% dmg (with vengeance) x 500% threat HotR is going to help my threat, which for me personally is a big deal on that fight.

Not saying it's necessary for add control, just helpful.
And it'll still probably do less than conc :>
03/25/2014 12:18 PMPosted by Pröcess
Right, but if I'm swapping to adds after a corrosive blast, a +30% dmg (with vengeance) x 500% threat HotR is going to help my threat, which for me personally is a big deal on that fight.

Not saying it's necessary for add control, just helpful.


I use HA differently on that fight. I pop it right at the beginning, build up a fast 5 BoG stacks and wait until they start spawning to hit it. That heal aggro is insane. I just DP Corrosive Blast and SoI is enough for Wet noodle Immerseus.

That said, I then go back to Divine Purpose until Dark Shamans.
03/25/2014 03:52 PMPosted by Berith
03/25/2014 12:18 PMPosted by Pröcess
Right, but if I'm swapping to adds after a corrosive blast, a +30% dmg (with vengeance) x 500% threat HotR is going to help my threat, which for me personally is a big deal on that fight.

Not saying it's necessary for add control, just helpful.


I use HA differently on that fight. I pop it right at the beginning, build up a fast 5 BoG stacks and wait until they start spawning to hit it. That heal aggro is insane. I just DP Corrosive Blast and SoI is enough for Wet noodle Immerseus.

That said, I then go back to Divine Purpose until Dark Shamans.


I do that too now that it's on farm, but when we were progressing, man, I was looking for any advantage I could get.

Our current strat makes it a joke anyway, tanks just stack with the melee, ranged behind us, and move to another platform for corrosive.

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