To Fly or Not to Fly...that is the question 2

General Discussion
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05/09/2014 08:34 AMPosted by Ryle
05/08/2014 05:11 PMPosted by Bøtanical
If you guys truly love flying for flyings sake, you'll go fly in the rest of the vast world. Lotta cool places and nostalgia to it.

No, what you care about is the convenience of avoiding the world and blizzard sees that as a big problem.

Case closed.


Case closed?

Perhaps in your mind, but thankfully the rest of us can think for ourselves. And many think that not having flight just because some dev does not like it is a bad idea.

And I also don't really care what Blizzard thinks of my play style. I pay for the expac (but not this time) & the monthly subscription cost, not Blizzard. Their opinion is of very little importance to me. They think that avoiding mobs is a "big problem"? Good for them. I think that them telling me how to play is a big problem, and I am not going to pay for what I see as a substandard expansion.


Do you write letters to script writers when a character you like dies in a movie or TV show?

Their opinion is literally the entire game. Thats what art is, even in the interactive medium.
I just don't understand the all or nothing approach. Seems like they had a good system in place with MoP. We are grounded while leveling up through the zones so we couldn't skip over any of the leveling quests. Current zones they made non-flying.

One of the points made by a blue was how people now, while doing dailies, skip mobs just to land and grab the quest item. I am guilty of doing this while doing dailies. Doing a daily quest 5, 10, 20, 50 times is not engaging game-play. Having me fight through all the mobs every time I complete this quest does not make my experience more enjoyable.

They should strive to strike a balance. If they want certain zones to be ground mounts only while we work towards a goal for the current patch I see no problems with that. Removing flying from Draenor completely will do nothing but cause unneeded anger in a large part of the community.
05/09/2014 08:39 AMPosted by Killgraft
Do you write letters to script writers when a character you like dies in a movie or TV show?

Their opinion is literally the entire game. Thats what art is, even in the interactive medium.

By the time a movie is out of beta, it's too late to give feedback. If I didn't like the movie, I tell my friends so they don't waste their time and money on it. And I certainly don't pay a monthly subscription directly to the producers to continue to watch a movie or TV show I don't like.

I respect art, but I also reserve the right choose which art I enjoy enough to bring home and give pride of place.
05/09/2014 08:39 AMPosted by Killgraft
Do you write letters to script writers when a character you like dies in a movie or TV show?

Their opinion is literally the entire game. Thats what art is, even in the interactive medium.


I guess a counter to that would be if there is an author or director that I used to really enjoy started going in a direction that didn't appeal to me I would probably not consume anymore of their work.

It is Blizzards job to create a fun and enjoyable world for us. They are nice enough to listen to our feedback and this is the place for it. I don't remember a screen writer or painter letting an internet forum offer input on their next piece of work.
05/09/2014 08:43 AMPosted by Reckin
I just don't understand the all or nothing approach. Seems like they had a good system in place with MoP. We are grounded while leveling up through the zones so we couldn't skip over any of the leveling quests. Current zones they made non-flying.

One of the points made by a blue was how people now, while doing dailies, skip mobs just to land and grab the quest item. I am guilty of doing this while doing dailies. Doing a daily quest 5, 10, 20, 50 times is not engaging game-play. Having me fight through all the mobs every time I complete this quest does not make my experience more enjoyable.

They should strive to strike a balance. If they want certain zones to be ground mounts only while we work towards a goal for the current patch I see no problems with that. Removing flying from Draenor completely will do nothing but cause unneeded anger in a large part of the community.


I agree.
05/09/2014 08:50 AMPosted by Sufia
05/09/2014 08:39 AMPosted by Killgraft
Do you write letters to script writers when a character you like dies in a movie or TV show?

Their opinion is literally the entire game. Thats what art is, even in the interactive medium.

By the time a movie is out of beta, it's too late to give feedback. If I didn't like the movie, I tell my friends so they don't waste their time and money on it. And I certainly don't pay a monthly subscription directly to the producers to continue to watch a movie or TV show I don't like.

I respect art, but I also reserve the right choose which art I enjoy enough to bring home and give pride of place.


You cant patch a movie(Well, I guess someone tell George Lucas that). You can patch a video game.

Of course you can reserve the right to speak with your wallet. But I hate seeing a vision comprimised, if said vision is sincere, even if it is something I disagree with. Even if I didnt like this change, I'd still give the benefit of the doubt until I can see it and interact with it.

05/09/2014 08:54 AMPosted by Vinxnotha
05/09/2014 08:39 AMPosted by Killgraft
Do you write letters to script writers when a character you like dies in a movie or TV show?


Many people do, you know that right?


Oh I know. Im sure George RR Martin is still receiving letters to this very day.
05/09/2014 07:33 AMPosted by Sufia
What follows is not a prediction, hunch or even a conspiracy theory. It's merely a series of questions based on a hypothetical premise for discussion.

1) If, someday, the irrevocable decision is made to remove flight entirely from the game, will you continue to play?

2) Do you believe a majority of players will embrace such a decision?

3) If the decision is not acceptable to you, can you conceive of any possible compromise that would keep you subscribing?

4) If the decision is not acceptable to you, is there any explanation of such a decision that would satisfy you enough to keep subscribing?


1. Not a chance. I most likely won't be buying WoD if there is no flight in it.

2. The ones who are obsessively addicted to the game will continue playing, but I believe that a lot of other people will simply move on to something else.

3. No. No Flying = No Buying.

4. See answer #3.
05/09/2014 08:55 AMPosted by Killgraft
But I hate seeing a vision comprimised, if said vision is sincere, even if it is something I disagree with. Even if I didnt like this change, I'd still give the benefit of the doubt until I can see it and interact with it.

Yeah, okay, but it's not as if I'm telling an artist how to paint or whether to paint or what to paint. All I'm telling him, up front, is that I wouldn't give a nickel to own any of his work if it starts looking like a Picasso.
05/09/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Sufia
05/09/2014 08:55 AMPosted by Killgraft
But I hate seeing a vision comprimised, if said vision is sincere, even if it is something I disagree with. Even if I didnt like this change, I'd still give the benefit of the doubt until I can see it and interact with it.

Yeah, okay, but it's not as if I'm telling an artist how to paint or whether to paint or what to paint. All I'm telling him, up front, is that I wouldn't give a nickel to own any of his work if it starts looking like a Picasso.


You're not. Lot of other people are. If you want to vote with your wallet, more power to ya. Thats capitalism.
05/09/2014 09:02 AMPosted by Killgraft
You're not. Lot of other people are. If you want to vote with your wallet, more power to ya. Thats capitalism.


<3 capitalism

Imagine if Blizzard was the government and all of a sudden our hand was forced?

*shudder*
05/09/2014 07:46 AMPosted by Menrva
05/09/2014 07:08 AMPosted by Killgraft
But yea, devs really dont want flying.


Well.. Really they dont want flying when content is relevant.. That much they have been saying for a long time now. Just what defines content still being relevant? Imo, that would be based on how many still has things to do. Which could also be a reason for the change in saying it will be at 6.1
There's a bit of a problem with this reasoning though.

Since, without flight, they would be able to (of possibly even *need* to) build smaller zones, introduction of flight in a "post relevance" timeframe would render those zones pathetic. For a sample look at Timeless. Were general flight ability allowed there at any time, that entire zone would be a meaningless joke (provided one doesn't already take it as such). Though I'm sure that general leveling zones would be bigger than Timeless (which is after all only about 1/3rd the size of, say Valley of Eternal Blossoms), they can only get so big before the lack of flight becomes a serious logistical negative.

We're already very familiar with the general size of Outland (what's left of Draenor after the Dark Portal explosion). Truth to tell, from looking at maps of Draenor, it looks like there's actually more landmass there (because bits haven't been blown off), making those zones even bigger -- which is a problem. Without some mode of fast travel (not just 'fixed' flightpathing) and the ability to self-select specific landing points -- not just pre-determined drop-offs -- travel is likely to turn into a nightmare, particulary if independent flight doesn't ever happen. Look at complaints people have about grinding through Outland or Northrend now... Imagine that amplified by the noflight complaint.
05/09/2014 08:54 AMPosted by Vinxnotha
Many people do, you know that right?


Back when King wrote the final Dark Tower book, he basically told people to not write and grumble about how they hated the ending. Didn't exactly stop them from doing so.

It's been almost 12 years and people STILL write and grumble at him, demanding that he change the ending.
05/09/2014 04:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
05/09/2014 01:30 AMPosted by Dendrin
Benefit of No Flying - Immersion, actually seeing more people in zones.


Except no. Immersion is best served by flight, because randomly changing the rules of the world is damaging to immersion. People who believe that removing flight improves immersion are confusing what immersion means in the context of fiction for what it means in the context of a body of water.

Seeing more people in zones is also damaging to immersion. It's difficult to believe you're exploring a savage, untamed wilderness when it's jam-packed shoulder-to-shoulder with your countrymen like a theme park.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw


One of the best explanations of Immersion in fiction that I am aware of is from the character Gordon Tanner in Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and Michael Flynn's 1991 Novel Fallen Angels (sorry for the length but you need to get some of the background for context): ""Hi," he said to Alex, "I'm Thurlow Helvetian. May I shamelessly try to sell you a book?"

"You can try," Alex allowed as he paused at the table.
He was bundled up now, and nearly dry, and still warm.

"You'd have better luck with Gordon. I'm not much of a reader. Then again, Gordon's still in the spa."

Helvetian nodded to himself. "Start slow." He rummaged about on the table and emerged
triumphantly with a cloth-bound volume. "Here. A Night on the Town. This is a fair sampler of my work. All short stories, so you get it in small doses."

Alex studied the book. The cover bore a stamp: Certified Elf-Free! "Fantasy."

"Rational fantasy," Helvetian assured him. "Fantasy with rivets. It means getting the details right, making
sure it all hangs together logically."
"My matushka once said-—" Alex turned and saw that Gordon had come up behind him. Gordon was
surrounded by a group of five femmefans, including Barbara and Sherrine. "My matushka once said that the secret of realism was to describe the thumb so well that the reader thinks he has seen the entire hand."

Helvetian nodded. "That's right. It's got to be consistent and realistic or you lose the reader."

"What if it's a fantasy?" Alex asked.

"Especially in a fantasy," Helvetian replied.

"Yeah-da." Gordon's head bobbed vigorously. "A dragon you may believe in, or a time traveller, but a
time-travelling dragon asks too much of the reader."

Now, yes I know, we do in fact have time traveling dragons and somehow in the lore it works. It is internally consistent and based on the meliu it is also logically consistent.

But in our world, in The World of Azeroth, we are able to fly using various winged animals and various devices some magical beasts some marvelous inventions and some inspired sculptures. There are areas we cannot fly and regardless of the benefits of not being able to fly in those zones the change is jarring, its abrupt, and it makes us remember that we are in fact playing a game. On the instant that we recall that we are playing a game we have broken immersion. We arent supposed to recall that we are playing a game. We are supposed to be so involved in the elements of the world that we believe it to be real, yes a small part of our hindbrain keeps us from staying under too long and losing our identity in the game but otherwise we stay immersed in the world unless something operates to override that immersion such as a jarring event like not being able to fly in a particular zone when otherwise we would be able to all other things being equal. In order for that phasing in to game reaility to happen properly, The rules of the game must not vary significantly from zone to zone or content to content or continent to continent. If the rules do vary significantly there has to be strong justification for the rules to change and whatever reason is applied must be consistent with the rules that we know about the world around us. If it doesnt do that it breaks that barrier and it sticks out like a sore thumb. When that happens we recall that it does happen and we find reasons to avoid that area because the rules are different there and not what we expected. So our choice becomes lose immersion or skip content because the rules dont work normally. Flight is a system that defines a set of rules for content zones and in order for it to support immersion, it is required that from major zone to major zone the interfaces remain the same.
05/09/2014 08:39 AMPosted by Killgraft
Do you write letters to script writers when a character you like dies in a movie or TV show?

Their opinion is literally the entire game. Thats what art is, even in the interactive medium.
Bad analogy. Script writers aren't looking to the audience for opinion on the story *before* it's written. They make it and show it and let the chips fall where they may regarding acceptance/approval.

Blizz isn't in the business of storytelling. They're in the business of game design. The "interactive" portion of your statement is where the fail occurs. To keep the game going Blizz needs $. To get that $ they provide a product to customers who *MUST* be satisfied with that product or they will not pay for it. Simple supply/demand equation. Their "opinion" what what the customer wants must contain information about what the customer wants, not just what they think the customer wants or what they think the customer will tolerate.

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
Henry Ford, 1909, "My Life and Work" autobiography published 1922

How'd that work out for him?
05/09/2014 09:21 AMPosted by Aberzombie


Blizz isn't in the business of storytelling. They're in the business of game design. The "interactive" portion of your statement is where the fail occurs. To keep the game going Blizz needs $. To get that $ they provide a product to customers who *MUST* be satisfied with that product or they will not pay for it. Simple supply/demand equation. Their "opinion" what what the customer wants must contain information about what the customer wants, not just what they think the customer wants or what they think the customer will tolerate.


They wouldnt be making this risk and tough decision if they didnt think it will work out for them. I think they more than a few things up their sleeves that they arent showing. They've only revealed a small portion of the hand they have. Hopefully at Blizzcon, we can see a bit more of it.

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
Henry Ford, 1909, "My Life and Work" autobiography published 1922

How'd that work out for him?


It's now one of the most successful companies in America.... so pretty good, right?
05/09/2014 07:33 AMPosted by Sufia
What follows is not a prediction, hunch or even a conspiracy theory. It's merely a series of questions based on a hypothetical premise for discussion.

1) If, someday, the irrevocable decision is made to remove flight entirely from the game, will you continue to play?

2) Do you believe a majority of players will embrace such a decision?

3) If the decision is not acceptable to you, can you conceive of any possible compromise that would keep you subscribing?

4) If the decision is not acceptable to you, is there any explanation of such a decision that would satisfy you enough to keep subscribing?

Sorry to reply to my own post here, but I wanted to hold my personal answers until others had a chance to answer first.

1) I don't know, but I doubt it. I've never been happy with the alternate travel methods provided.

2) I don't know, but I doubt it. From some of the responses I've read in various threads, the concept does seem to have a fan base.

3) I don't know, but I doubt it. If I believed they can and will give an efficient alternative (I mean truly efficient) then I might stick around.

4) I don't know, but I doubt it. The only possible reasons I could swallow would be either (1) that the new file system simply won't support z-axis design or (2) they are retrofitting old zones to conform to the new file system and simply don't have the corporate resources to do everything at once (i.e. flight will return someday).
05/09/2014 09:18 AMPosted by Lealia
05/09/2014 04:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
...

Except no. Immersion is best served by flight, because randomly changing the rules of the world is damaging to immersion. People who believe that removing flight improves immersion are confusing what immersion means in the context of fiction for what it means in the context of a body of water.

Seeing more people in zones is also damaging to immersion. It's difficult to believe you're exploring a savage, untamed wilderness when it's jam-packed shoulder-to-shoulder with your countrymen like a theme park.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw


One of the best explanations of Immersion in fiction that I am aware of is from the character Gordon Tanner in Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and Michael Flynn's 1991 Novel Fallen Angels (sorry for the length but you need to get some of the background for context): ""Hi," he said to Alex, "I'm Thurlow Helvetian. May I shamelessly try to sell you a book?"

"You can try," Alex allowed as he paused at the table.
He was bundled up now, and nearly dry, and still warm.

"You'd have better luck with Gordon. I'm not much of a reader. Then again, Gordon's still in the spa."

Helvetian nodded to himself. "Start slow." He rummaged about on the table and emerged
triumphantly with a cloth-bound volume. "Here. A Night on the Town. This is a fair sampler of my work. All short stories, so you get it in small doses."

Alex studied the book. The cover bore a stamp: Certified Elf-Free! "Fantasy."

"Rational fantasy," Helvetian assured him. "Fantasy with rivets. It means getting the details right, making
sure it all hangs together logically."
"My matushka once said-—" Alex turned and saw that Gordon had come up behind him. Gordon was
surrounded by a group of five femmefans, including Barbara and Sherrine. "My matushka once said that the secret of realism was to describe the thumb so well that the reader thinks he has seen the entire hand."

Helvetian nodded. "That's right. It's got to be consistent and realistic or you lose the reader."

"What if it's a fantasy?" Alex asked.

"Especially in a fantasy," Helvetian replied.

"Yeah-da." Gordon's head bobbed vigorously. "A dragon you may believe in, or a time traveller, but a
time-travelling dragon asks too much of the reader."

Now, yes I know, we do in fact have time traveling dragons and somehow in the lore it works. It is internally consistent and based on the meliu it is also logically consistent.

But in our world, in The World of Azeroth, we are able to fly using various winged animals and various devices some magical beasts some marvelous inventions and some inspired sculptures. There are areas we cannot fly and regardless of the benefits of not being able to fly in those zones the change is jarring, its abrupt, and it makes us remember that we are in fact playing a game. On the instant that we recall that we are playing a game we have broken immersion. We arent supposed to recall that we are playing a game. We are supposed to be so involved in the elements of the world that we believe it to be real, yes a small part of our hindbrain keeps us from staying under too long and losing our identity in the game but otherwise we stay immersed in the world unless something operates to override that immersion such as a jarring event like not being able to fly in a particular zone when otherwise we would be able to all other things being equal. In order for that phasing in to game reaility to happen properly, The rules of the game must not vary significantly from zone to zone or content to content or continent to continent. If the rules do vary significantly there has to be strong justification for the rules to change and whatever reason is applied must be consistent with the rules that we know about the world around us. If it doesnt do that it breaks that barrier and it sticks out like a sore thumb. When that happens we recall that it does happen and we find reasons to avoid that area because the rules are different there and not what we expected. So our choice becomes lose immersion or skip content because the rules dont work normally. Flight is a system that defines a set of rules for content zones and in order for it to support immersion, it is required that from major zone to major zone the interfaces remain the same.


We already cant fly in Pandaria until lvl 90. When expansions were new, we couldnt fly until level cap, save one of them. I see this as no more inconsistant than any of the others.
05/09/2014 09:21 AMPosted by Aberzombie
"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
Henry Ford, 1909, "My Life and Work" autobiography published 1922

How'd that work out for him?

The first Ford I ever owned was forest green. Hubby's Ford is silver.

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