To Fly or Not to Fly...that is the question 2

General Discussion
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05/09/2014 09:24 AMPosted by Killgraft
They wouldnt be making this risk and tough decision if they didnt think it will work out for them. I think they more than a few things up their sleeves that they arent showing. They've only revealed a small portion of the hand they have. Hopefully at Blizzcon, we can see a bit more of it.
Oh I agree they seem determined to do this and their reasoning may or may not be sound. However it's sliced it's a risk. They've given indications they're not only 'improving' (whatever that means) fligthpaths, but are also developing 'alternative' means of transport (not much in the way of clues yet). Those alternate means had best work very, very well (in terms of speed, convenience, reliability, etc.) to actually provide an acceptable substitute/replacement to flying. And *that's* where a major disconnect occurs. Too many players have seen Blizz screw up too many 'experienments' in the past to patently trust that this to turn out any better.
"It's now one of the most successful companies in America.... so pretty good, right?
Did you totally miss the point or just ignore it outright? If the former, I'll explain.

Ford got customer complaints that all his vehicles came in only black paint. They wanted variety. For years he said, "No." That quote is from his autobiography so he admits to it -- it's not just "urban legend". Did he or the company stick to that? No. Customer feedback, customer complaints, customer demands.... customers voting with their wallets... pressured the company to giving them what they wanted... the variety of more colors. Ford's autocratic outlook didn't work for him in this respect. If Blizz's direction for this nofly thing is coming from the same well of hubris, it will fare no better.
05/09/2014 09:25 AMPosted by Killgraft
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One of the best explanations of Immersion in fiction that I am aware of is from the character Gordon Tanner in Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and Michael Flynn's 1991 Novel Fallen Angels (sorry for the length but you need to get some of the background for context): ""Hi," he said to Alex, "I'm Thurlow Helvetian. May I shamelessly try to sell you a book?"

"You can try," Alex allowed as he paused at the table.
He was bundled up now, and nearly dry, and still warm.

"You'd have better luck with Gordon. I'm not much of a reader. Then again, Gordon's still in the spa."

Helvetian nodded to himself. "Start slow." He rummaged about on the table and emerged
triumphantly with a cloth-bound volume. "Here. A Night on the Town. This is a fair sampler of my work. All short stories, so you get it in small doses."

Alex studied the book. The cover bore a stamp: Certified Elf-Free! "Fantasy."

"Rational fantasy," Helvetian assured him. "Fantasy with rivets. It means getting the details right, making
sure it all hangs together logically."
"My matushka once said-—" Alex turned and saw that Gordon had come up behind him. Gordon was
surrounded by a group of five femmefans, including Barbara and Sherrine. "My matushka once said that the secret of realism was to describe the thumb so well that the reader thinks he has seen the entire hand."

Helvetian nodded. "That's right. It's got to be consistent and realistic or you lose the reader."

"What if it's a fantasy?" Alex asked.

"Especially in a fantasy," Helvetian replied.

"Yeah-da." Gordon's head bobbed vigorously. "A dragon you may believe in, or a time traveller, but a
time-travelling dragon asks too much of the reader."

Now, yes I know, we do in fact have time traveling dragons and somehow in the lore it works. It is internally consistent and based on the meliu it is also logically consistent.

But in our world, in The World of Azeroth, we are able to fly using various winged animals and various devices some magical beasts some marvelous inventions and some inspired sculptures. There are areas we cannot fly and regardless of the benefits of not being able to fly in those zones the change is jarring, its abrupt, and it makes us remember that we are in fact playing a game. On the instant that we recall that we are playing a game we have broken immersion. We arent supposed to recall that we are playing a game. We are supposed to be so involved in the elements of the world that we believe it to be real, yes a small part of our hindbrain keeps us from staying under too long and losing our identity in the game but otherwise we stay immersed in the world unless something operates to override that immersion such as a jarring event like not being able to fly in a particular zone when otherwise we would be able to all other things being equal. In order for that phasing in to game reaility to happen properly, The rules of the game must not vary significantly from zone to zone or content to content or continent to continent. If the rules do vary significantly there has to be strong justification for the rules to change and whatever reason is applied must be consistent with the rules that we know about the world around us. If it doesnt do that it breaks that barrier and it sticks out like a sore thumb. When that happens we recall that it does happen and we find reasons to avoid that area because the rules are different there and not what we expected. So our choice becomes lose immersion or skip content because the rules dont work normally. Flight is a system that defines a set of rules for content zones and in order for it to support immersion, it is required that from major zone to major zone the interfaces remain the same.


We already cant fly in Pandaria until lvl 90. When expansions were new, we couldnt fly until level cap, save one of them. I see this as no more inconsistant than any of the others.


/sigh...Then I expect you will not ever understand how jarring it is to go from one ruleset to another especially on the back of the reason of "because we said so". "Because I said so" worked for your mom when you were 4, but somewhere along the path "Because I said so" stopped working. Why did it stop working? Because you began to understand the underlying rules. The way the world worked. Those rules conflicted with "Because I said so." and you observed that the rules were different from your situation enough to start to question the validity of "Because I said so." "Because I said so" then began a transformation into questions that were designed to trap you into a conscious decision to obey because it was in your own self interest: "Because I said so" becomes "If all of your friends jumped off of a bridge would you do it too?" And of course that often generated the smart alecky reply of "Maybe!"

That we tolerate the disjunction of no flight until level cap is not the same thing as no flying not breaking the 4th wall. It does break it horribly. But we make that sacrifice because we realize that we will be able to learn to fly again as soon as we meet the level requirement. Its an individual gate. Not a gate based on a "wait and see" if you like no flying and if enough of you hate no flying then we will reluctantly add it back in later arbitrary and capricous decision made by the development team, who by rights aught to have designed the expansion exactly as the did for MoP and Cata and Wrath to enable flight completely at level cap rather than this hooey , this immersion breaking hooey of well we want you to experience and expac with no flight. WE KNOW what no flight feels like. The rest of it is more "because we said so" bs and the devs need to know that and they need to know it NOW before they jump off a cliff. The bottom of that cliff is hard and rocky and it is one that will cost the devs their jobs and us a damn good gaming experience.
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Reasons that dont make sense to you or you dont agree with. Just wanna clear that up.

But yea, devs really dont want flying. Doesnt mean it probably wont change if people en large dont like it come live. And yea, there's a much bigger chance this is stay than going.


You just agreed with me, blizzard wants flying gone. The reasons being wpvp which is meaningless to people on pve realms and that it somehow decreases immersion yet people were avoiding said immersion since the game launched look at roads they allow you to avoid pretty much as much combat as flying does, flying did not suddenly change that 8 years ago.
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Those are the excuses we're being fed, not the reasons. Bashiok let the cat out of the bag with his first response months ago -- to slow down content consumption..
@Aberzombie: My bet for the 'alternative travel"? They steal from Lotro's Swift Travel, an ability to pay extra and be instantly sent to another stablemaster, providing you meet certain requirements.
05/09/2014 09:10 AMPosted by Aberzombie
05/09/2014 07:46 AMPosted by Menrva
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Well.. Really they dont want flying when content is relevant.. That much they have been saying for a long time now. Just what defines content still being relevant? Imo, that would be based on how many still has things to do. Which could also be a reason for the change in saying it will be at 6.1
There's a bit of a problem with this reasoning though.

Since, without flight, they would be able to (of possibly even *need* to) build smaller zones, introduction of flight in a "post relevance" timeframe would render those zones pathetic. For a sample look at Timeless. Were general flight ability allowed there at any time, that entire zone would be a meaningless joke (provided one doesn't already take it as such). Though I'm sure that general leveling zones would be bigger than Timeless (which is after all only about 1/3rd the size of, say Valley of Eternal Blossoms), they can only get so big before the lack of flight becomes a serious logistical negative.

We're already very familiar with the general size of Outland (what's left of Draenor after the Dark Portal explosion). Truth to tell, from looking at maps of Draenor, it looks like there's actually more landmass there (because bits haven't been blown off), making those zones even bigger -- which is a problem. Without some mode of fast travel (not just 'fixed' flightpathing) and the ability to self-select specific landing points -- not just pre-determined drop-offs -- travel is likely to turn into a nightmare, particulary if independent flight doesn't ever happen. Look at complaints people have about grinding through Outland or Northrend now... Imagine that amplified by the noflight complaint.


Yeah i see where you are coming from and is true.. It makes me wonder more what there plans are with traveling.. Apart from making flightpaths more streamlined they did say they had some other thing planned which they have yet to speak of.
05/09/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Sacrolash
05/09/2014 08:34 AMPosted by Ryle
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Case closed?

Perhaps in your mind, but thankfully the rest of us can think for ourselves. And many think that not having flight just because some dev does not like it is a bad idea.

And I also don't really care what Blizzard thinks of my play style. I pay for the expac (but not this time) & the monthly subscription cost, not Blizzard. Their opinion is of very little importance to me. They think that avoiding mobs is a "big problem"? Good for them. I think that them telling me how to play is a big problem, and I am not going to pay for what I see as a substandard expansion.


Amen to this. Blizzards job is to keep the servers running. We pay to play how we want, as is advertised on the website "play how you want" If that is no longer optional, then we have a huge problem.

Seems what we have here with Blizzard is failure to communicate. It feels like Blizzard thinks we're here to populate a world that is now being turned into a world that is built for them only when they play. We're just here to fill the auction house and be people they can kill in pvp.


"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some developers you just can't reach. That's why you get what we had here last two expacs. I don't like it any more than you customers do."

Apologies to Strother Martin


Ford got customer complaints that all his vehicles came in only black paint. They wanted variety. For years he said, "No." That quote is from his autobiography so he admits to it -- it's not just "urban legend". Did he or the company stick to that? No. Customer feedback, customer complaints, customer demands.... customers voting with their wallets... pressured the company to giving them what they wanted... the variety of more colors. Ford's autocratic outlook didn't work for him in this respect. If Blizz's direction for this nofly thing is coming from the same well of hubris, it will fare no better.


Blizzard has already given their reasons. It's not just "no because no" You dont agree with those decisions, fine, but theyve already stated most of their case(And yes, should very well explain more), but they arent just saying "No flying because lulzzzz".

There was no reason for keeping their cars black asides how quick the paint dried. This has many, many other factors to it.



05/09/2014 09:40 AMPosted by Lealia


/sigh...Then I expect you will not ever understand how jarring it is to go from one ruleset to another especially on the back of the reason of "because we said so". "Because I said so" worked for your mom when you were 4, but somewhere along the path "Because I said so" stopped working. Why did it stop working? Because you began to understand the underlying rules. The way the world worked. Those rules conflicted with "Because I said so." and you observed that the rules were different from your situation enough to start to question the validity of "Because I said so." "Because I said so" then began a transformation into questions that were designed to trap you into a conscious decision to obey because it was in your own self interest: "Because I said so" becomes "If all of your friends jumped off of a bridge would you do it too?" And of course that often generated the smart alecky reply of "Maybe!"

That we tolerate the disjunction of no flight until level cap is not the same thing as no flying not breaking the 4th wall. It does break it horribly. But we make that sacrifice because we realize that we will be able to learn to fly again as soon as we meet the level requirement. Its an individual gate. Not a gate based on a "wait and see" if you like no flying and if enough of you hate no flying then we will reluctantly add it back in later arbitrary and capricous decision made by the development team, who by rights aught to have designed the expansion exactly as the did for MoP and Cata and Wrath to enable flight completely at level cap rather than this hooey , this immersion breaking hooey of well we want you to experience and expac with no flight. WE KNOW what no flight feels like. The rest of it is more "because we said so" bs and the devs need to know that and they need to know it NOW before they jump off a cliff. The bottom of that cliff is hard and rocky and it is one that will cost the devs their jobs and us a damn good gaming experience.


It's a lot more than "Because we said so". You might disagree with them or find their reasons stupid or arbitrary, but thats a matter of opinion, and they have stated some reasons. Hopefully at Blizzcon, they discuss it further and give a little more insight as to why they're doing this.

Though "by rights"; they can do what they want. They are a private company, and as it is their creative license they are free to build on that as to what they feel is best for their product. If this was such an obvious walk off a cliff, they wouldnt be doing it.

Heck, they're part of Activision, probably the most money hungry gaming company out there; if they knew this was going to tank it, or lose a substantial amount of money, they would have stopped it after one dev team uttered the word, and brought him outside to be shot by Bobby Kotick himself. I have a strong feeling they have a lot more up their sleeve for this than they are letting on right now, and, I'm sorry, but I feel they have a better grasp on this situation than you or I do.
I did the math for mounts I bought and for all the toons above 80 with just plain epic riding skill over 300k and they just going tot ake it lol yea I will not be buiying new xpac not to me its not about not being able to fly its about them getting you to paying all that gold and taken from you I mean if they was going to do this they should have made it one time pay where all your toons gets it
05/09/2014 10:07 AMPosted by Killgraft
It's a lot more than "Because we said so". You might disagree with them or find their reasons stupid or arbitrary, but thats a matter of opinion, and they have stated some reasons. Hopefully at Blizzcon, they discuss it further and give a little more insight as to why they're doing this.


Actually we don't have any information that it is any more than "Because we said so." They have not given reasons, compelling and integral reasons, other than "because we said so" to us. What they HAVE given us are excuses. "because we don't want you skipping content." That is an excuse and translated it is really no more than "We arent very adept at designing content that makes players want to stay on the ground so we are going to arbitrarily end an 8 year old system and feature that most players love and will feel cheated if they dont have access to because we just don't have what it takes to develop compelling content." And to be truthful here, all the reasons so far given are some derivative of that excuse. "Its easier for us to develop this way so thats what we are going to do regardless of breaking the game rules that already exist or of its effect on our customers without whom we would not have jobs.

05/09/2014 10:07 AMPosted by Killgraft
Though "by rights"; they can do what they want. They are a private company, and as it is their creative license they are free to build on that as to what they feel is best for their product. If this was such an obvious walk off a cliff, they wouldnt be doing it.


That may be the issue though. Blizzard has been the big kid on the block for such a long time that they may be falling or have fallen into the company killing trap that I believe hathorjoy mentioned earlier in this thread. Roger Waters of Pink Floyd saying We could record a fart and millions of people would buy it." Its called complacency and over familiarity. At some point the focus goes from passion for creating a great product and an energy and drive to produce the best of the best regardless of the effort needed to focusing on how can we maintain profit regardless of its effects on quality of our deliverables.

If there were comparable competition in this sector, there clearly would not be the kind of cavalier attitude towards development or towards customer relations that there currently is at Blizzard Entertainment. The competition would drive the developers to increase their creativity and their passion to keep customers from going to the competition.

Heck, they're part of Activision, probably the most money hungry gaming company out there; if they knew this was going to tank it, they would have stopped it after one dev team uttered the word, and brought him outside to be shot by Bobby Kotick himself. I have a strong feeling they have a lot more up their sleeve for this than they are letting on right now, and, I'm sorry, but I feel they have a better grasp on this situation than you or I do.


Thats the rub though. Bobby and Co dont retain granular control over development projects do they? No. Not even Mike Morhaime has that type of granularity. That level of development control is left to the development team (which is probably where the problem lies, in that the wrong people were chosen to provide the vision for the ongoing game but that is beside the point). Because those decisions are left with them and stakeholder approval probably percolates no hight up than Alex's position. The oversight stops there rather than going up to the level of Mike Morhaime or Bobby Kotick. Now if there were some sort of oversight happening maybe someone would see what kind of path they are headed down and would put the brakes on it toot sweet.
05/09/2014 10:14 AMPosted by Galadrie
I did the math for mounts I bought and for all the toons above 80 with just plain epic riding skill over 300k and they just going tot ake it lol yea I will not be buiying new xpac not to me its not about not being able to fly its about them getting you to paying all that gold and taken from you I mean if they was going to do this they should have made it one time pay where all your toons gets it


I am for flying at max level but what you are talking about has nothing to do with the upcoming expansion. You will still be able to fly in every zone you bought flying for.
05/09/2014 07:43 AMPosted by Rollo
05/09/2014 06:32 AMPosted by Uorokku
Not even beta wait for beta before you make suggestions you have no idea what the game will be like without flying so you can't voice a valid argument because you lack evidence. This isn't an attack on flying btw honestly both sides need to present evidence which they cant yet until they experience it.


I've played the game without flying many times. There is no evidence that WoD will be radically different from the flightless content we've all experienced before, including the 1-60 experience that was revamped not that long ago. Nothing in any of the game show previews of the expansion has mentioned or noted any earth-shattering innovations in WoD's standard, combat-heavy "blast your way through the problem" gameplay.

If the quest design was more complex, maybe flight wouldn't have to be removed at all. While efficiency is a factor, our use of flight is also a reaction to the content itself. The few examples we've been given of the content they think a no-flight experience benefits sound like weak content that flight simply makes weaker, and nothing we haven't done before, like "go kill this boss in a fortress where he's surrounded by trash mobs" or "jump from one spot to another spot to another spot for some kind of reward."

I counter you will a simple if WoD isnt different why bother buying it? See what I did there, Wait until beta find out information PROVIDE FEED BACK why else does beta exist its so the user can get hand on experience and provide feed back with evidence due to the on hands.
05/09/2014 07:43 AMPosted by Rollo
our use of flight is also a reaction to the content itself.


I agree with your whole post, but this specifically. This is something they just don't seem to comprehend. Make compelling content, and you won't have to force people to do it. If it's not compelling, removing flight won't matter anyway; people will find other ways to avoid it.
05/09/2014 10:56 AMPosted by Lealia


Actually we don't have any information that it is any more than "Because we said so." They have not given reasons, compelling and integral reasons, other than "because we said so" to us. What they HAVE given us are excuses. "because we don't want you skipping content." That is an excuse and translated it is really no more than "We arent very adept at designing content that makes players want to stay on the ground so we are going to arbitrarily end an 8 year old system and feature that most players love and will feel cheated if they dont have access to because we just don't have what it takes to develop compelling content." And to be truthful here, all the reasons so far given are some derivative of that excuse. "Its easier for us to develop this way so thats what we are going to do regardless of breaking the game rules that already exist or of its effect on our customers without whom we would not have jobs.


I dont know why you're using quotation marks if you're going to completely and utterly twist their words. They've given reasons. You see them as excuses. Opinion. Please, if you want to continue dialogue, maybe you should stick to the facts, especially if you want anything you say to just not fall on deaf ears, unless you enjoy just being listened to by people who already agree with you. Would be more "consistent", as you like to say.

That may be the issue though. Blizzard has been the big kid on the block for such a long time that they may be falling or have fallen into the company killing trap that I believe hathorjoy mentioned earlier in this thread. Roger Waters of Pink Floyd saying We could record a fart and millions of people would buy it." Its called complacency and over familiarity. At some point the focus goes from passion for creating a great product and an energy and drive to produce the best of the best regardless of the effort needed to focusing on how can we maintain profit regardless of its effects on quality of our deliverables.


And you know for certain this focus has changed? How do you know this decision doesnt come from a place a creative inspiration and drive? If anything, they could have just done the same thing they do every expansion, and it wouldnt have been too hard. That would be "Over familiarity"; the same old same old.

If there were comparable competition in this sector, there clearly would not be the kind of cavalier attitude towards development or towards customer relations that there currently is at Blizzard Entertainment. The competition would drive the developers to increase their creativity and their passion to keep customers from going to the competition.


If there was considerable competition, they would probably be making even bigger changes to the game to give players something fresh. Maybe not as big of a risk, but the fact that they're willing to try it says to me they have some definite ideas of where they want it to go, and I think those ideas come from a place of sincerity.



Thats the rub though. Bobby and Co dont retain granular control over development projects do they? No. Not even Mike Morhaime has that type of granularity. That level of development control is left to the development team (which is probably where the problem lies, in that the wrong people were chosen to provide the vision for the ongoing game but that is beside the point). Because those decisions are left with them and stakeholder approval probably percolates no hight up than Alex's position. The oversight stops there rather than going up to the level of Mike Morhaime or Bobby Kotick. Now if there were some sort of oversight happening maybe someone would see what kind of path they are headed down and would put the brakes on it toot sweet.


I dont know enough about stocks and company share holding to really argue in this capacity, as I just play the darn the game and enjoy it, but I personally doubt Blizzard is going to shoot themselves in the foot and let their game completely die. Any conversations and points were making to each other have probably already been made there. The risks are assessed and they seem to have decided this change is worth it and good for the company and state of the game. I wouldnt be giving a company money every month if I didnt trust them to give me good content. Im not sure why you are, if you think this company is comprised of such utter fools.

Whatever, Im going to work. I'll try to participate more tomorrow.
As part of all this exploration gameplay, we are not gonna let you fly in Warlords of Draenor.

Source -- Kris Zierhut, Lead Class Designer for WoD speaking at PAX East; transcript at http://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/pax-east-2014-warlords-of-draenor-blizzplanet-interviews-kris-zierhut-steve-burke

That doesn't sound like "wait and see" to me.
05/09/2014 11:00 AMPosted by Uorokku
I counter you will a simple if WoD isnt different why bother buying it? See what I did there


Blizzard can add all the new content to the game it likes. New quests, dungeons, classes, races, whatever. I'm perfectly fine with more of the same. If the flight situation was more of the same, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've repeatedly said the MoP/Wrath flight model was fine with me.

05/09/2014 11:00 AMPosted by Uorokku
Wait until beta find out information PROVIDE FEED BACK


I'll provide feedback with or without beta.

05/09/2014 11:00 AMPosted by Uorokku
why else does beta exist its so the user can get hand on experience and provide feed back with evidence due to the on hands.


For bug fixing, not for massive content retooling.

Our hands-on feedback in beta will not change the expansion launching without flight. It will launch without flight.
05/09/2014 11:33 AMPosted by Rollo
05/09/2014 11:00 AMPosted by Uorokku
I counter you will a simple if WoD isnt different why bother buying it? See what I did there


Blizzard can add all the new content to the game it likes. New quests, dungeons, classes, races, whatever. I'm perfectly fine with more of the same. If the flight situation was more of the same, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've repeatedly said the MoP/Wrath flight model was fine with me.

05/09/2014 11:00 AMPosted by Uorokku
Wait until beta find out information PROVIDE FEED BACK


I'll provide feedback with or without beta.

05/09/2014 11:00 AMPosted by Uorokku
why else does beta exist its so the user can get hand on experience and provide feed back with evidence due to the on hands.


For bug fixing, not for massive content retooling.

Our hands-on feedback in beta will not change the expansion launching without flight. It will launch without flight.

I personally want no flying but still beta is also a place to point out things where things could be added its a test trial. Your feedback has 0 value when you spout nonsense that has no experience behind it multiple times people state they've had no flying ect ect it sucked in vanilla WoD is COMPLETELY different so is the questing model almost its been cleaned up and more interactive to experience the climate so no you shouldn't try to provide feed back until you experience it.
05/09/2014 10:07 AMPosted by Killgraft
Hopefully at Blizzcon, they discuss it further and give a little more insight as to why they're doing this.


I saw they said the latest date for release would be december something, but if they get to Blizzcon and this still isnt out, I would imagine that would hurt sub numbers alone :P Im not sure what they would even have at Blizzcon thats wow related...
I'm OK with no flying, for as long the quests are not all over the maps, staying while questing in one spot is not fun either.

I don't make a lot of money so some of my 90 chars can't fly in Pandaria yet and it doesn't bother me even that Pandaria wasn't designed with a "no flying" mindset. If WoD is more "no flying" friendly than Pandaria.that I don't see the problem. Heck I would even mind if they don't allow flying for the entire expansion, after all this is a trip back in time and they may not have had flying mounts back then.
05/09/2014 07:52 AMPosted by Jujubiju
No, just no.

I remember this in UO- it bit.

Plus, world pvp these days is lowbie ganking. It's not a fair fight. Another player being able to take away gear from someone that can not defend themselves is just flat out silly.

Another thing- at least as far as PVE servers go: we'll now have the option on whether or not we actually want ourselves flagged. Me, I personally plan on having my flag turned permanently off at all times (unless I decide to go to the rare BG or even Ashran).


It did bite. I only mentioned it because of all the "world must be dangerous to have immersion" people out there. As it stands now, there is no real consequences to PVP death. And yes, while I dabble in PVP with my hunter and druid, all my other toons will have their PVP flag permanently off as well.

On the subject at hand

Why not instead of getting rid of flying, make so that if you get attacked you have a certain percentage of being dismounted. Yes, we see that in KW at the fortresses. But I am talking about and mob or player. You get shot, down you go. This way flying is not as safe.

Remember when MOP came out. The damn birds in the valley could knock you off your mount. Real damn annoying. But I would rather have that then no flying at all. So that option is already in the game.

Choose your poison: Fly and get knocked off or ride and get dazed. Don't want people flying around your cleverly placed traps, add some flying mobs. This gives everyone a choice.

Extend to PVP. Player flagged and tries to mount up to get away. smack, one shot and down they go.

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