Why I'm hesitant concerning WoD

General Discussion
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More rep grinds? More work for few rewards? Slaps in the face for all who aren't in raiding guilds? No thanks.


06/04/2014 09:12 AMPosted by Beornhilde
What vendors are you talking about. There never were a lot of vendors selling raid ilvl gear. Some factions in Cata sold first tier ilvl gear but just a few pieces. Never any higher. And if it requires any kind of rep other then raid, Blizz has stated on several occasions that they do not want raiders to feel obligated/required to do non-raid content.


Im just pointing out that just because valor is gone, that doesnt mean you wont be able to get the same quality of gear without raiding.

They havent said whats to come, unless I missed it.. Could it be rep grinds? I dont know.. did they say it was?

You pointed out a concern, im just showing that because theres no valor, that doesnt mean theres no way to get the gear.


TI gear doesn't even come close to the normal raid ilvl gear we used to get from vp. Yes, there might be rewards out there in the world and I really enjoyed the world bosses this xpac (locked out of Ordos because of the raid requirement for him) and tried to keep up with my professions (although boring)but this is just a few pieces in between which again depends on RNG especially the first.
06/04/2014 10:01 AMPosted by Shanndi
After careful consideration, I've come to the decision to use the Glengarry Ross approach.

At present...Blizzard is fired. They have x number of months (until release of WoD) to win their job back, and this can be accomplished by presenting me a product I want to buy. So far I have very little reason to purchase; my only considerations are 'new models', which are something I can literally get in any game I've never played before, and 'lore', which I can likewise get simply by loading a new game. That's not real impressive.

I'm hoping to hear of things that will interest me, but right now I hear 'only nice stuff for those lucky enough to have great guilds, and screw the rest of you'. But I'm not making a decision yet on whether they will remain fired. As I said...I am giving them ample opportunity to save their jobs/sell me a product.

Don't bother telling me to leave/I won't be missed/no one cares, I already know that. That's a large part of the reason that 'only nice stuff for those lucky enough to have great guilds' is a terrible idea.


Is the ability to read one of those nice things for great guilds that you don't have?

Because flex mode difficulty will be pretty easy, the only things easier than flex will be actually joining the raid & LFR.

If you can't be bothered to try, then we're in agreement, you need to move on.
06/04/2014 10:01 AMPosted by Shanndi
At present...Blizzard is fired. They have x number of months (until release of WoD) to win their job back, and this can be accomplished by presenting me a product I want to buy.


One of the nice things about working on mass market software (as opposed to, for example, enterprise software) is that you're not beholden to any single customer, or any small group of customers.
06/04/2014 10:05 AMPosted by Atomix


Is the ability to read one of those nice things for great guilds that you don't have?

Because flex mode difficulty will be pretty easy, the only things easier than flex will be actually joining the raid & LFR.

If you can't be bothered to try, then we're in agreement, you need to move on.


I'm sorry, were you trying to communicate? That's very sweet. And perhaps if I were referring to Flex raiding, you might have a point.

But I wasn't, and you don't, so you may run along now. I'm sure you have some other thread to shill in.
06/04/2014 10:18 AMPosted by Mescyn
One of the nice things about working on mass market software (as opposed to, for example, enterprise software) is that you're not beholden to any single customer, or any small group of customers.


Fortunately, neither myself nor any of the many others who are hesitant about this expansion are beholden to a single company either. I thought it was rather clear that my post expressed -my- point of view and -my- approach to deciding if the expansion was something I was interested in, and represents nothing more than -my- intentions. I never indicated that Blizzard would suffer from losing a customer; that would be lunacy.
06/04/2014 10:19 AMPosted by Shanndi
I'm sorry, were you trying to communicate? That's very sweet. And perhaps if I were referring to Flex raiding, you might have a point.


The only possible venue in the game that has anything to do with 'being in a great guild' is raiding, from which you are not excluded due to flex.

I'm sorry, did you just want to be witty & sound complicated without any actual substance? Noted, please carry on.
I started in 2008 but by the time I got to end game LFD was out. LFD gave me emblems I could buy gear with. And by that time the only dungeons that were a challenge and caused wipes were Occulus last boss and the ICC dungeons. So I didn't really spend a lot of time getting my emblems every day. Wrath also had a lot of questing content and dailies that might not have helped to give me gear progression but were still content I hadn't done.


You said you began playing in March 2008, which was during BC. Dungeon Finder was not released until near the end of Wotlk, December 2009. Are you saying it took you 21 months to hit level 80?

If so, you're incredibly slow & not the type of gamer that any company is going to build an MMO around.

[quote]

Sounds like MMOs are not the game for you.


Why wouldn't a company be happy to get 21 months worth of sub fee?

I also admitted that I made a mistake in the year. I checked my achievements and it was 2009.

Apparently this MMO will turn out not to be for me if it becomes "forced" grouping in end game. I have fun just leveling through Lotro right now. Last time I checked that was a MMO. Just there emphasis is seems to be more on lore. And getting to end game takes longer too.
06/04/2014 10:22 AMPosted by Shanndi
Fortunately, neither myself nor any of the many others who are hesitant about this expansion are beholden to a single company either. I thought it was rather clear that my post expressed -my- point of view and -my- approach to deciding if the expansion was something I was interested in, and represents nothing more than -my- intentions. I never indicated that Blizzard would suffer from losing a customer; that would be lunacy.


I'm all for people unhappy with products not consuming them. The post feels less a post about leaving because a product doesn't meet your needs and more a threat to leave if things don't change.

The latter is silly, because you can never satisfy all potential customers in a mass market product. You can only do what you decide is best, informed by objective data and your customers experiences, and iterate. When you start making development decisions based on threats, you end up not really satisfying anyone.
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You said you began playing in March 2008, which was during BC. Dungeon Finder was not released until near the end of Wotlk, December 2009. Are you saying it took you 21 months to hit level 80?

If so, you're incredibly slow & not the type of gamer that any company is going to build an MMO around.

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Why wouldn't a company be happy to get 21 months worth of sub fee?


Every company would be happy with 21 months of sub fees. However any company with even a shred of common sense is not going to design a game that takes 21 months to reach endgame - everyone would quit due to boredom.

I get that you made a mistake in when you started playing - you apparently edited that in while I was posting, so chalk that up to timing.

Apparently this MMO will turn out not to be for me if it becomes "forced" grouping in end game. I have fun just leveling through Lotro right now. Last time I checked that was a MMO. Just there emphasis is seems to be more on lore. And getting to end game takes longer too.


Unless you were able to solo current content, WoW progression has always been 'forced grouping' in the end game. This is not a new development.
#48 @ Mescyn

But that is exactly what Blizz is trying to do, satisfying everybody and then making a U-turn just satisfying a few. They change their mind with every xpac sometimes even patch trying to hold on to as many customers as possible. It is clear that the devs heart is in high end pvp and raiding. But they try to make a game that also will keep as many casual players as possible (LFD/LFR, dailies). In the end that causes a lot of frustration and really wondering what is next. From very much enjoying this xpac I have become very frustrated and bored. Is it a wonder if I hesitate about what I see in the next xpac?
06/04/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Beornhilde
Apparently this MMO will turn out not to be for me if it becomes "forced" grouping in end game. I have fun just leveling through Lotro right now. Last time I checked that was a MMO. Just there emphasis is seems to be more on lore. And getting to end game takes longer too.


Endgame has revolved around grouping since November 2004. That is, was, and always will be how to attain the best gear and character progression.
06/04/2014 10:36 AMPosted by Amyiss
06/04/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Beornhilde
Apparently this MMO will turn out not to be for me if it becomes "forced" grouping in end game. I have fun just leveling through Lotro right now. Last time I checked that was a MMO. Just there emphasis is seems to be more on lore. And getting to end game takes longer too.


Endgame has revolved around grouping since November 2004. That is, was, and always will be how to attain the best gear and character progression.


Amyiss speaks the truth here, it's ALWAYS been this way.

What I'm apprehensive of is the potential requirement to group up with other people for overworld, leveling content again. That is NOT something I missed from pre-Cata; needing a group to take down a mob made me feel like a burden on the poor bastards who actually agreed to help me rather than spitefully tell me to solo the damn thing.
06/04/2014 08:59 AMPosted by Peggity
I love the ignorance of people who say MMO MMO MMO ... you just don't get it.

MMO simply means many people CAN play the game at the same time. NOT THAT THEY HAVE TO PLAY IT TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME.

/derp

There may be 50 people living in my neighborhood, but that doesn't mean I want them all in my living room.
Thank you for this, Peggity. I'm saving this to a clip file for future use.

I dunno ... are the devs' feelings hurt because I want to just dink around in the game and relax? I'm surrounded by people, I have to deal with people all day and by the end of the day I want to get away from them for a bit. I'm quite happy to be "filler".

I enjoy this game and the good things that come from playing it. If I feel like being sociable, the opportunity is there; if not, there's still plenty to do. What I fear is that they are going to take that away from me. That they don't need my kind around 'ere, no more.
06/04/2014 10:28 AMPosted by Mescyn

I'm all for people unhappy with products not consuming them. The post feels less a post about leaving because a product doesn't meet your needs and more a threat to leave if things don't change.

The latter is silly, because you can never satisfy all potential customers in a mass market product. You can only do what you decide is best, informed by objective data and your customers experiences, and iterate. When you start making development decisions based on threats, you end up not really satisfying anyone.


Ahh, okay I see where you're coming from. I'm sorry if that's how it came across -- that wasn't the intent. Rather the former was ('If I leave, it is because...'). If it was a threat, I wouldn't have said I was willing to give time for things to interest me and whatnot, I would have simply listed 'demands' (silly as that thought is). I just don't get the feeling yet (and that word, 'yet', is the important one) that there is much being done to make interesting gameplay/rewards - especially rewards - for someone outside of mythic/top-grouping content. The splitting of aesthetic rewards into tiers like they have, with all these 'special effects' going into the top-group items, is pretty telling in that regard or seems to be at the moment.

Combine that with a lack of information regarding other interesting modes of play, the way the garrisons are being handled (subject to change, of course), and a few other things and the entire list begins to shape up as passable, but not aimed towards my playstyle. And I'm okay with that, but I want to know that's what's happening before I just up and leave. I don't think that's unreasonable.

@atomix -- if you wanted to discuss, you might have started by leaving off the snarky retort. I don't respond well to it.
06/04/2014 10:36 AMPosted by Beornhilde
#48 @ Mescyn

But that is exactly what Blizz is trying to do, satisfying everybody and then making a U-turn just satisfying a few.


No, the release an expansion, look at the positive and negatives of the experience, and adjust. There's not much of a u-turn at all. When something is used in ways they didn't really intend, they have to balance allowing that play style or adjusting it to better support what the intended reason for the mechanic was to begin with.

No point oriented gear doesn't mean no catchup mechanism, and it doesn't even mean no character power progression for non group oriented players, all it means is the specific mechanic which exists to offset poor luck by raiders is changing in wod.
Amyiss speaks the truth here, it's ALWAYS been this way.
.


If I may pull this one sentence a bit out of context, I'd like to point out that this excuse has been used over and over and over and OVER again for all manner of things in the history of Western Civilization, from important things all the way to minor changes in social interactions. It has never been anything more than a logical fallacy, however.

I may not be a deconstructionist at heart (nor will I ever be), and I think Critical Theory has been applied way too often to a great many things (there is definitely a point where it is counterproductive), but even I will admit that there are some places where it is well-served, and top-level traditions are among the best of them.
06/04/2014 10:42 AMPosted by Shanndi
I just don't get the feeling yet (and that word, 'yet', is the important one) that there is much being done to make interesting gameplay/rewards - especially rewards - for someone outside of mythic/top-grouping content.


We don't know much about non-group content at this point. What we do know is that garrisons will offer epic gear, but it's something you will have to earn over time. We also know there will be character power in small group content (5m cm content especially), although we don't know if it will increase in power over the following tiers.
06/04/2014 10:43 AMPosted by Shanndi
Amyiss speaks the truth here, it's ALWAYS been this way.
.


If I may pull this one sentence a bit out of context, I'd like to point out that this excuse has been used over and over and over and OVER again for all manner of things in the history of Western Civilization, from important things all the way to minor changes in social interactions. It has never been anything more than a logical fallacy, however.

I may not be a deconstructionist at heart (nor will I ever be), and I think Critical Theory has been applied way too often to a great many things (there is definitely a point where it is counterproductive), but even I will admit that there are some places where it is well-served, and top-level traditions are among the best of them.


OP is insenuating that the game is moving towards 'forced grouping at the endgame' - he is being told that this is not a new development & endgame has always been built around grouping. This has literally nothing to do with anything you just posted.

If you care to discuss the topic, quit trying to impress people with random factoids & attempts at wit, just say what you're actually talking about. I'm still waiting to hear what you're losing by 'not having a great guild' and all I've learned is that you're a very complicated, sensitive person.
06/04/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Greyvax
only 2 new raids.


You're not thinking that we're only getting 2 raids for the whole expansion, are you?

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