Guild Experience Change

General Discussion
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My concern is that while I am not in a large guild we easily made the guild exp cap for the day but then encountered the concern if we keep questing and moving forward we lose the guild experience possible gains for the next day since it does not act retroactively. So at this point it looks like if we want to max the exp cap a day it is not worth playing past that point on a guild exp basis. Is there really where you want to take this game. Making it a place where if your guild leveling you penalize those that actually want to play.
12/08/2010 3:54 AMPosted by Vardar
What do you mean by achievements? Like normal world achievements? They raised the rep too. Hmm, interesting.

The new Guild Achievements would give you Guild XP above and beyond your daily cap. So if you hit your cap and then earned the "Blacking Descent Guild Run" guild achievement, you would earn points for that regardless of the cap.

That's what they changed, the guild achievements no long give XP beyond the cap.

It wasn't a bug, it was as intended, but they changed their minds on it.
Terrible change IMO. We hit the guild exp cap with two people questing so it was cool that we could get a group together and go work on achievements and still get the guild exp. Now the achievements are totally pointless since they do absolutely nothing for our guild.

Guilds that actually do the achievements should get some form of incentive so please change this back. If you won't change this, please consider raising the daily EXP cap to something that would take more than 10 people to achieve in a normal day. Right now it is just too low.
This seriously is a joke, our guild was almost rank 5 before this mess. Please restore the xp that we earned, how is this even remotely fair to everyone that worked so hard for it? If you wanted to make a change you should have made it going forward, not resetting everything for all guilds :(
Well it seems 98% of the people agree on the poor decision by blizzard. I think their failure on this matter is already decided. But, everyone should have a voice so I wanted to look at a few people that voiced otherwise.

"Achievements, whether personal or guild, are supposed to be rewards in and of themselves. They are meant to mark certain accomplishments." by Jarvus

Achievements, whether personal or guild, are suppose to reward something. Even the most minuscule of achievements in the achievement system they instated hands out rewards. Be it a title, just for having explored all the zones. Be it a tabard just for equipping tabards. Be it a pet, just for picking up pets. Be it a mount just for picking up mounts. The Achievement system is MEANT to return rewards for effort put in.

Things that are rewards unto themselves are things that aren't in the achievement system. For example:

In DTK, pulling everything up to Trollgore and tanking it at once. That is an achievement in and of itself with no further reward.

Soloing 10m Sartharion. That is an achievement in and of itself with no further reward.

Shaman Tanking Nax, achievement in and of itself.

Collecting all the armor to make yourself look exactly like an Orgrimmar guard.

Dragging rock guardians to Orgrimmar so you can stand around and show them off.

The proper emotes after thoroughly thrashing someone in Battlegrounds.

Verbally winning in trade chat.

Controlling the AH market for various goods. Unfortunately I am not skilled enough to do this, but multiple times on my server some of the rich members have cornered the market just for fun, it was an achievement for them.

So I keep hearing this whole, achievements should be the reward in and of themselves. Now that's fine and all to "achieve" things with no reward other than doing it, but the "Achievement System" that Blizzard created isn't about that. Its about rewards for doing work. It was specifically created to make more things to do in the game. To consume more time. And to be rewarded for it.

Things that are organized and tracked into the achievement system, or the guild achievement system are MEANT to yield rewards. If they weren't meant too. There would be no financial reason to invest in the resources to create such a system. Because the rewards would already be in game.

So please, that argument doesn't hold any water here. We have all played under the achievement system Blizzard installed. And we all KNOW its about rewards. My mount is a reward from it. My title is a reward from it. My tabard is an award from it, (well right now I have a rep grind tabard on, but normally) To say anything else is a flawed and niave attempt to draw attention away from their mistake.
It seems that the group of teengers that Blizzard is employing at ridiculous salaries lost the napkin they were making notes on while conferencing at a McHappy Day Birthday Party with HamBurglar making the lead presentation while sliding down the slippery-dip unsupervised by the adults at the party.

Seriously, make a decision stick with it - don't make a half-assed decision then change it because at the time of the final vote on the route to be taken you though t siding with the boss was the better way to go for your carreer rather than saying at the time it wasn't going to work. And as far as the boss goes - sack him for allowing so many ridiculous ideas to go through unchecked, and sack him again for changing his mind on Day 1 of a release.

Read this and take note:
1) Don't change things because a few people don't like it - they are called the vocal minority - look up what it means and don't make knee-jerk reactions based on a vocal minority
2.) this game is (supposedly) designed to allow people to go where they want to according to who they are - not on who Blizz or a few others think they should be viz. Some ppl love Questing, so give them a guild path through questing; some people love PvP - so give them a guild path through PvP; some people love achievement gathering , so give them a guild pasth through the Achievements, some people like dungeons, so give them a guild path via dungeosn, some people like raids so give them a guild path through raids, some people like battlegrounds, so give them a guild path through the Battleground system
3.) Do your homework BEFORE you implement an idea not after
4. ) If you don't understand anything that has been written above hand in your resignation to Blizz at once because you clearly don't understand the diversity of people that play your game nor how a game should be designed PROPERLY.
5) There are plenty of people out here who do know the above things who don't have degrees in IT, CompSci or GameTheory BUtTwe do know what needs to be done because we have loads of common sense, something that seems to be lacking at Blizz central.
Folks, this thread has really been about Blizzard's mistake, but its a lot more valuable if there are points /counter points. I have perused most of this thread very quickly. I caught one counter point, which I responded to above. But I did see a few other in agreement with Blizzard, but it wasn't a counter point, just an agreement.

It is valuable to the entire discussion to have both sides. I was hoping that people that are happy with this decision would do more posting, and explain why you like it. We are all rational people, and the fact of the matter is that if majority of their customer base LIKES this decision, than fine. It was an intelligent move on their part, and I will rapidly shut up. I just haven't seen that outcry. This is a MASSIVE game change, everyone knows about it. If you are happy about it please post here, letting us know why. Will you get counter point arguments, ABSOLUTELY, but that's how you come to a compromise between all the different players. Hopefully from this discussion Blizzard can salvage themselves.
I know that lots of people complained about this. Instead of adding my own complaint, I'll try to risk a constructive suggestion... This guild achievement system was bringing up people together towards a common goal which for me is one of the main reason for being in a guild.

Instead of completely removing the principle, could it be possible to just reduce its impact? For example, rather than giving 1M XP by achievement, can you just give 100K XP?

Food for thought...

12/07/2010 5:20 PMPosted by Layosa
I don't... I honestly don't know what to say.

I don't know what I can say other than to add my voice to the numerous that have already posted and hope that we are heard.

Before Cata dropped, we, as a guild, spent many hours of planning into working towards realm first guild level 25. Almost every member of the guild was on board to make this happen. We were excited. Casual members who don't raid were excited.

This excitement went beyond the chance to experience the new content that was coming out. We were thrilled because, for the first time, there was a tangible benefit to doing things as a group in an organized fashion that extended to all of our members and not just a select few. And best of all, everyone could participate in making it happen.

We reached the guild daily exp cap in an hour. AN HOUR! (Yes, it feels low and could be adjusted with the amount of gxp needed to level.) We didn't even have that many members on (20-30 when a good night has 50) for the midnight launch nor were we shooting for it that quickly. So in order for us to get a little boost, we attacked the guild achievements with fervor.

We read in advance how the EU guilds were reset. But it honestly didn't cross our minds that it was because of guild achievements. We thought the gxp daily cap bugged out. After all, we thought, how could Blizz remove one of the most exciting features of the new game?

I'll admit. we were surprised at the rate at which we were able to level. I remember there was a 2.5 glvl guild posted earlier. We made glvl 3.8 before the "cataclysm" on achievement points dropped. (Without warning we "achieved" glvl 1.) By our tally, we made an additional 250 gxp every 10 points of achievement score plus a ridiculously high amount (almost 5-6 million) for every meta achieve (Classic Dungeonmaster and other achieves earned through many smaller ones).

This was -exciting-. This was one of the best things about the new expansion. We, as a guild, were cooperating at all levels to help one another out and many people sacrificed their first few hours in Cata to assist with dungeon runs and other achievements because we knew it was worthwhile and were seeing the benefits.

And now what are we left with after a collective effort? After the hundreds of man-hours on reputations ground up in advance? After the thousands of gold and time spent planning even to gain legendary weapons? After the sheer rush of actually accomplishing what we were setting out to accomplish? A glvl 1 that will proc glvl 25 at the same time as every other guild in the world.

So nerf it! A lot of fair suggestions have been made. Nerf it 80%. Get rid of the (frankly ridiculous) bonus gxp for the meta achieves and just base it on points. Grab that nerf bat and start whacking and adjusting until the gxp is in line with your ideal... But don't take it away. Don't make it a countdown timer. Don't remove the carrot that made every member of larger (and smaller) guilds feel like they were contributing in a tangible way.

I can't. I can't stress that last paragraph enough. I can't shout loud enough. I can only hope as I have said so many times and has been said so many times in the mere hours since this was posted, how much this mattered to the enjoyment of your game.

And I'm not certain I can convey in nice terms how angry this has made many of your customers. Small guilds and large guilds alike have chimed in how achievements were goals for them. We don't need or want bragging rights. We just wanted to do something to make being in the guild worth that much more.

Please Blizzard. Revisit this decision.

I could not agree with this more. Nerf the xp, but don't take away the steam that kept us up all night, striving for those achieves.
"It has become clear that an imbalance does exist and should be addressed to ensure that guilds progress at the rates expected within the daily Guild Experience limits."

Translation - We were stunned that highly motivated guilds were becoming more successful than the general WoW populous. We've now normalized guild leveling to a much more simple heart rate biometric.
The idea of being able to level your guild is a cool one, but the mechanics behind leveling your guild are/were poorly thought out if 1. You had to remove a major factor in guild leveling after release 2. You decided to placed a cap on guild leveling that 5 people in a guild can achieve in under a few hours 3. Guild leveling does you nothing to promote a guild working together. With the removal of achievement xp you removed most of the reason behind guild leveling, which is what I assume to be a reward for a guild working together.
This is a terrible change IMO. Guild XP for Guild Achievements went a long way toward helping social members of guilds contribute to the guild in a meaningful way. Further, it gave raiders and social members a valid reason to work together, strengthening the community aspect of the guild across members who normally wouldn't play together all that much.

How do guilds distinguish themselves with regard to the level system? What guild won't hit their guild xp cap EVERY week? If it's a forgone conclusion then you might as well make it time based since that's what it seems Blizz devs really want anyway. All this change does is make it more difficult for new guilds to compete with older guilds; it destroys a system that had some decent promise.

Adding more xp to the levels and keeping guild achievements in would have been a FAR better change. Get the person who made this boneheaded decision some coffee cause they obviously need it...
very good post. Hopefully Blizzard will take note. I also felt like I was kicked after having a day of fun. One other kick was watching all the server firsts while understanding people and guilds placed alot of time and energy and funds to get these, Should it even be possible to accomplish max levels in a few hours of play??? Crippling the guild achievements by capping experience is just totally wrong!!!!!! Before the release I had figure maybe server first awards would take a minimum of a few days of play not a few hours. Was it really worth 39.95 + tax to basically complete the core of the game in under a day? Hopefully Blizzard will rethink their actions !
12/08/2010 5:26 AMPosted by Sweetmeat
"It has become clear that an imbalance does exist and should be addressed to ensure that guilds progress at the rates expected within the daily Guild Experience limits."

Of course there is an imbalance! There are imbalances ALL OVER THE GAME. Its part of it, its tough to make it balanced, you do the best they.

BY halting it. A guild of three people, can now do the same amount of work as 500 people. That is about as far out of balance as you can get. It doesn't GET more imbalanced than that.

So that is a worthless statement. If its imbalanced, fix the imbalance, don't go and make it as possibly imbalanced as you can.
I was looking forward to helping my guild complete achievements and level up to max level as quickly as possible. Prior to the expansion we ran old world content to level up reputations and to farm for legendaries. Then, when I log on the day Cata launches, I find that our Guild Level 2 has been reverted to Level 1, and that we've already reached the cap and I can't contribute towards leveling.

Blizzard ruined Guild Leveling in one fell swoop. Every single guild will ding 25 on the same day. Why bother with the achievements when a majority reward nothing? Blizzard should have balanced the experience that achievements awarded, making ones that could not be zerged (Dungeon and PvP Achievements) worth the most. Instead, they trivialized the whole system, making it another gated progression system.

Please Blizzard, all guilds are not created equal. Allow those who work hard, those who complete achievements, and those who will quest with alts, able to contribute towards the progress of their guild and allow guilds to BEAT other guilds in leveling.

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