Guild Experience Change

General Discussion
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I'm not going to contribute to the already sizable amount of 'QQ' in this thread, but the warning signs that guild achievements were going to be used for this purpose were in Beta, before you implemented the 5x guild xp.

The beta guild I was in, deleted in the proceeding guild wipe (the one before the 5x guild xp), was grinding levels in exactly this way, as were many other guilds in beta. I'm surprised it took you till launch to see it...
We hit the cap after turning in 25 dailies on 10 people that logged in within the first 30min of game. If any guild can not field 250 quests in a day, or several dungeon runs, or a few BG's at the start of an expansion cycle they have much more pressing issues than worrying about guild levels. As it stands now the cap is much to low for any guild that has an active player base of 10 people or more. I understand limiting content but as it stands now are we not expected to reach level 25 until the next expansion is released? If that's the case why even show whats available to be released at higher guild levels? It's hard to feel as though you are contributing to your guild when the cap can be reached by one person with just a few hours of minimal work. It's already bad enough you're limiting how fast we can gain rep with our OWN guild now you want to severely limit how quickly we can progress as well?

As it stands now doing ICC level quests with a 22k average experience it will take 250 quests per day to reach the cap. A one person guild can hit the cap with one zones worth of quests. I'm all for balance but how is it balanced when I can make a one man guild and level at the same rate as a guild at the player cap?
Blizz. You read the threads from those BS 3-man guilds complaining about guild leveling and small guilds and what did you do, you caved. GG. I hope those threads drown in posts from ppl in real guilds now. I am personally thoroughly disappointed.
All of us that have been working so hard as a "GUILD" to achieve some of these achievements set in place by you! That "WAS" tested in BETA! And, now we get no reward or exp for them?
I am talking about (most, not all) of the profession achievements! Who cares if we DE 100,000 items?! What is the reward for doing this? Who knows? How does it show? Other than working hard to be a level 25 guild.

Isn't that our reward for working hard? Thanks for limiting us and our desire to work as a guild toward a common goal.

Who does it hurt if we level our guild in a timely fashion? You sure didn't put any stops in place to keep us from getting 85 in a day.
I know I already made a post a bit ago, but I'm going to try again to say my point in a more constructive manner.

This change isn't a good idea, especially not so suddenly right after the game goes live. It was in the beta for the longest time, and you spent a ridiculous amount of time and effort to get it tweaked and balanced. Your customers spent that same time, planning excitedly, for methods to progress these achievements and level quickly, as a guild. I think it's a safe assumption based upon Beta feedback, on top of the feedback in this very thread, that this was a very anticipated addition to the game.

I come from a small, casual guild of roughly 20 people, only about 10 of which actually play seriously. We are the kind of guild that's being victimized by this so-called imbalance compared to those guilds that have hundreds and hundreds of active players. We all agree that this isn't a good change. We spent several days, thousands of gold, and countless hours planning for these changes. We were looking forward to spending time, AS A GUILD, doing silly things such as 5-man level 80 RFC runs, Crittergeddon days, among other things. Guild leveling was personally the most exciting thing about this expansion, and I know many others who also feel this way.

We will never be able to keep up with the bigger guilds. However, we enjoy the competitive challenge it comes to try to keep up. We enjoy striving for best-of-the-best casual guild on the server. The guild experience caps are incredibly low, and therefore we will likely hit the cap every single day, as will guilds that are 30x bigger than us.

It is going to be borderline impossible to do some of these guild achievements now that there is absolutely NO reason to, save for a few specific ones. I'm not going to expect or even ask the guild to get a group of 5 people together to run old dungeons for the achievements when the guild as a whole won't benefit, and THEY won't feel like they're contributing to anything.

Also, you said the following:
This change will realign Guild Achievements with our philosophy held for normal Achievements, which are intended to be predominantly their own reward (barring the rare exception of special achievements that grant an additional reward.)

Guild achievements are going to be their own reward once the guild hits 25. You realize that guild achievements before this change weren't required, right? We didn't need to do achievements to hit 25, it would just take a while. These are still NOT required, and therefore provide their own reward, on top of giving incentive for guilds to work as a guild to get some of these done. It's supposed to be a fun and interesting way to bond.

I think you've forgotten what being in a guild means.
If you are upset with how quickly guilds leveled, how about reducing achievement gains by 80%? That makes way more sense.

Now, you might as well remove experience too, since every guild is just going to level up at the exact same rate anyway. Just have set dates where you unlock perks for no reason!
Wow. I was really looking forward to running old raids and dungeons with my guild. But now there is no incentive. What difference is there now between singular achieves and guild achieves? Virtually nothing. We may as well just go do them by ourselves because either way its not going to actually effect anything.

Guild achievements need to have incentive for people to get together and run old content. You may as well have given every one a second lot of achievements and said hey look you can do them again..... for fun. :/

Anyway that's my QQ for the year.
12/07/2010 2:47 PMPosted by Drainhorde
I agree with most that this decision is very poor planning on Blizzards part, but all these "our guild worked so hard" posts are a bit ridiculous IMO.

The fact that guilds were able to advance so much in mere hours, regardless of what they did to do it, in and of itself, screams easy to me. This is a game after all. If it's "hard work" you might want to try another hobby.

You make an excellent point, but rather than nerfing the rate of gain, they removed it completely.

Remember back in pre-Wrath when Ret Pallies were absolutely unstoppable in PvP? Did they remove Ret as a remedy to that??
Guild Achievements giving XP was a great thing. It actually let the members of the guild get involved and shape their own collective destiny, rather than just individually do their own thing.

Even if you REDUCE the amount of XP each achievement gives, please please return this feature!
12/07/2010 2:28 PMPosted by Muggza
We have an extremely small family guild where everyone is related or RL friends. We knew we would most likely never hit the daily limit, but were looking forward to doing a bunch of the guild achievements to help us out.

Not sure why you feel you'll never hit the limit? In my guild only 2 people have been on so far today and already the daily XP gained is at close to 50%.
Guild XP from achievements was something that was fueling guild activities and tightening our guild as a whole.

It was something the guild could actively work on as a team in large groups at a time before raiding is available.

I respectfully disagree with the decision that was made. Lowering XP from achievements would have been a significantly better tack to take. For our guild, we spent time before Cata informing the guild, preparing, and planning guild activities. While we can still go through with the activities, the guild member interest level dropped dramatically when informed that there is no XP.

I think it was one of the few things that really pushed for whole guild cohesion during a time when everyone is soloing quests and not really doing as much together as during "raiding season"

Now guild experience and leveling is just something that happens. There is no reason to even pay attention to it.
Hmm...i'd have to agree.

Lower the amount of xp that a guild gets per achievement, but do not just remove them.
I have to admit that I'm a bit upset as well. As others pointed out, there is now no 'race' to the finish, it's a marathon that we'll all finish on the same day. And I say this as a GM of a guild that would never *win* such a race on my server, but it's fun to compete all the same.

Also, we've been working our tails off to prepare and to work on the Guild Achievements. Because they *earned* something for us. Now I'm suppose to motivate my guildies to go craft things for free for people on the server, to go kill critters for hours, for what? So that we can get a few points on a scoreboard?

Achievement points are nice, and they're fun on a personal level. Raiding achievements are awesome tools for recruitment. I'm sure there's an analogy for PVP as well. But you might as well implement a Guild Gearscore for how useless the general Guild Achievement points are going to be now.

I would rather see you increase the amount of experience needed per level than take away the guild achievement experience, if you're concerned about the length of time it will take to max out the content.

Also, taking a perk away that the guild earned? That *hurt*. On launch day, a day that's supposed to be fun, and about exploring and earning new things.... we earned something as a group, then promptly lost it. That wasn't fun in any way, shape, or form.

I really hope the devs reconsider this change.
12/07/2010 2:56 PMPosted by Judicator
If you are upset with how quickly guilds leveled, how about reducing achievement gains by 80%? That makes way more sense.

Now, you might as well remove experience too, since every guild is just going to level up at the exact same rate anyway. Just have set dates where you unlock perks for no reason!

These is definitely a knee-jerk reaction to guilds utilizing the provided mechanics to level guilds at an excellent rate (than what was intended). Essentially the change does eliminate any reason to do achievements now as a guild. It also makes guild levels trivial now as guilds with 15 or 500 active people will (more than likely) level at the same rate. For active guilds, there is zero necessity to having guild experience anymore. All guilds will unlock new features at roughly the same pace, maybe offset by a day.

How I would have addressed this is pretty simple...and already hit on.

Reduce the XP given by achievements. 20% of original values might be enough. However, taking out this additional compliment also makes guilds less unique.

Other part, eliminate the weekly guild reputation limit by player. That has to be the most pointless limit now. If there is really a concern about people leveling too fast, reduce the numbers so that it is still attractive to those that want to push hard versus those that are more laid back.
While you're at it, revert Athene to level 80 because the mechanic he abused is far more broken than anything involved in the guild system.
As a Beta tester, I have to seriously question this move. I joined a guild and we were clocking through levels of guild xp, not just due to the 5X leveling speed, but because people were running EVERYTHING! The notion that Blizz had no idea that this would happen...well, I respectfully suggest that overall oversight of the development process should be reviewed in the post morteum of this xpac release.

What does this mean? It just sucked out the fun from doing a lot of old activities. Why do those things now?
Like many others posting here, I'm in a relatively small guild, but having seen how the experience has worked, I'm convinced that we will easily meet the daily XP cap, at least for the first few weeks.

We have been planning our achievements for several weeks -- nothing serious, but planning which raids we would go back to, who would level what professions, etc.

A lot of that time and effort feels largely wasted now, because it's just a 'vanity' point, not a benefit to the guild (with the exception of things like the feast rewards or other minor things).

The motivation to clear old raids, pick up legendaries, etc. is all but gone now. Motivating the guild to work on these things is fine when it *rewards the guild* -- but most of the guild isn't going to benefit from more vanity points.

I feel like there are other solutions if you have problems like this. Set up a daily XP cap, *and* a daily (or weekly) guild achievement XP cap, for example. (And nerf the gains to the point where it balances out about where you want it.) The paragons of the world will still skip ahead of the rest of us by hitting the (higher) cap every week, but at least small guilds can feel like they are working together and making progress in a way that the current system seems designed to prevent. (Obviously, some things like the legendaries or reputations would no longer make as much sense to give XP.)

Alternatively, nerf the XP of all the achieves by a significant amount -- heck, even as much as 90%. The key point is that there's a way to encourage the guild to work together to do things, other than vanity, and I think that is a valuable thing to do.

Please leave some incentive for guilds to work on achievements together besides vanity. It's a great way for guilds to grow together, and I would hate to lose that simply because it allows some very dedicated people to progress slightly faster, when it's completely clear that this type of progression would happen anyway.
12/07/2010 2:34 PMPosted by Deadbud
Finding the right words to express my disappointment its hard.
Unless you can make it up in some way. We spent hundreds of thousands of gold and hundreds of hours to get ready for the achievement. Not only that but we based some of the guild plans around how it was going to work.
We got reset to level 1, WITH the cap already met and cant gain.

You had enough time to fix this problem when Europe went live.
am EXTREMELY dissapointed on the shortsightedness and lack of vision.
I am very tempted to just curse you all out because im very angry right now.
Thanks for wasting all our efforts and resources.
You have seen this for months and have failed miserably as game designers.


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