Effect of Lone Wolf on MM PVP: let's complain

Hunter
In the current state of WOD patch notes and tweets by Blizzard, if a hunter uses Lone Wolf, then they won't be able to benefit from Spirit Bond or Master's Call. Anyone else think it's a little unfair to have a talent that cancels out another one? yes there are other options... exhilaration and iron hawk, but I'd rather have an endless passive heal because it's so much better. If we are going to have talents, we shouldn't have to worry about having one cancel out another.

Without Master's call, MM hunters in pvp will have limited options to keep a melee at bay - especially after losing scatter shot, scare beast, and the pet cc that was so valuable to MM hunters.

Solutions? I'm thinking spirit bond should still work if Lone Wolf is active... after all... it is your spirits bonding. Master's call could be used and your pet spawns for a second just to intercept you?

But the argument would be Lone Wolf is supposed to increase your damage by 30% but you're paying the price of losing a pet, a steady heal, and mobility. That's a steep price to pay in its current state... pets do quite a bit of damage when they're active anyway...
ATM lone wolf, for single target situations, is close to a 5% dps boost, as pets make up 20-25% of MM and SV"s single target damage, 20% when we have the legendary procs boosting our dps, and the buff is just making up for the lack of pet damage.

Considering lone wolf prevents you from losing most of the pet damage in PVP(via having the pet not present), there is a trade off in you are trading mobility and healing for the inability to have said single target damage taken away. However, I do agree that spirit bond should work, the big reason being MM and SV pets get ignored mostly in PVP, unlike BM pets that get tunneled. Intimidation, blink strikes, and fervor all lose some power with lone wolf (intimidation and blink strikes flat out don't work, fervor loses the pet's focus gain from fervor). Back before stampede replaced lynx rush on the WoD talent tree, hunters would have been pigeonholed into AMoC when running lone wolf.
That's actually a good point... If you choose Lone Wolf... you have less options for talent tiers... is that what Blizzard is going for? One of the big points of this expansion is to eliminate things in the game that do not allow for customization.... look at the reasoning for removing reforging. By pigeonholding MM hunters into a couple talents per tier... it's effectively eliminating the freedom to choose whichever ability appeals to you most.
Blizzard seems to have no problem with this. I feel blizzard should alter the two affected talents and make them do something else if Lone Wolf is chosen, it seems silly otherwise.
I think it's a pretty interesting talent, sure it goes a little against the grain but the concept of a pet-less hunter is one which has been talked and discussed about on this very forum since well... forever? Besides, it's not as though the talent prevents pet use altogether, it just provides a modest damage increase while our pet's inactive(as well as a select raid wide buff); summoning a pet to use freedom or roar of sacrifice isn't forbidden, and all things considered it really wouldn't be all that much of a burden to do so.
In theory you could technically still use spirit bond and play side by side with your pet during situations where a passive heal is deemed beneficial and just dismiss your pet in situations when the heal is unnecessary. Fortunately the other top tier talents don't appear to be all that game breaking so even if our 'lone wolf' up time is low it would more likely still pull out ahead of the other two depending on its utilization, but perhaps its a little too early to make such a statement.

While it would undoubtedly be more convenient if the mentioned pet abilities could be utilized without our pets being active I personally believe that such leniency would defeat the purpose of the talent; blizzard is offering a choice to the hunter community and like all real choices this one has both pros and cons, but fortunately for us the consequences are few in number and the list of cons shortens to one the moment we summon a pet into battle to presumably save our tookus. The one con of course being that our 'lone wolf' talent is wasted while our pet's active.
Having said all that I would love if this talent also gifted us hunters a one or two minute CD that could be used to instantly dismiss our active pet so this 'lone wolf' talent could be more easily utilized in the way I've described; that would make for some very interesting play.
Considering that pets have had pathing/AI issues in the past, can be killed in PVP and by some PVE mechanics, and can lose up time when swapping targets, Lone Wolf could under the right circumstances be too good.

Just seems like they want it to be a double edged sword where you're trading pet management and the utilities pets bring for not having to manage a pet and losing said pet's utility. That or it might just be Blizzard's way of telling us that maybe we should just keep our pets after all.
Back when Ghostcrawler was around and they nerfed GoSac on Locks he said something like "You are a pet class, you should be punished for not having a pet".

If that was more than just his own personal opinion then be glad they aren't taking more away from you when you chose it.
Lone wolf has been terribly thought out by blizzard based on its lack of synergy with the rest of the "talent tree" for MM and Survival.

Actually, I think I am being overly critical on my opinion of them.
Based on Blizzards new idea of pruning and removing button bloat, I think this all works perfectly into the class.
Lone wolf allows for another button to be freed up, I don't know what for...but it's there.

If all these current changes to hunters go live...we will have a surplus of extra places for keybinds. I have to assume these extra buttons are going to be for macros such as.

/cower
/e asks Mr. %t, to please not kill him!!!

/run
/e runs to the hills, runs for his/her life!!!

/cry
/e is tired of losing to every class in game because "ability pruning" destroyed the class!
06/20/2014 04:22 PMPosted by Kolacz
That's actually a good point... If you choose Lone Wolf... you have less options for talent tiers... is that what Blizzard is going for? One of the big points of this expansion is to eliminate things in the game that do not allow for customization.... look at the reasoning for removing reforging. By pigeonholding MM hunters into a couple talents per tier... it's effectively eliminating the freedom to choose whichever ability appeals to you most.


Locks get a huge health bonus when they choose soul link and sac their pet. It says nothing at all about this happening but it happens. I expect the hunters who choose this talent in combination with the other to receive some sort of benefit also or else lol @ hunters being locked out and locks receiving zero penalty.

I'm not even exactly sure how it works but new players are literally given zero info about warlock soul link working w/o a pet. When I made my lock, I was like well I'll never get this talent with this one I guess. Then I looked at armories of these warlocks who picked both and I was like wtf? Then my friend told me about it and I was like uhhh ok.
I also forgot to mention that MM hunters who choose lone wolf in pvp will also be losing out on Roar of Sacrifice... A lifesaving ability. I feel like losing that ability let alone is the price to pay for not having a pet as it is a direct pet ability... but abilities like intimidation and master's call the Hunter casts himself and should still be able to be utilized...

As of right now... Lone wolf makes a MM hunter lose the pet's ability to put more damage on the target/Roar of Sacrifice/Intimidation/Spirit Bond and Master's Call. On top of losing Scare Beast/Scatter shot/Silencing shot/Pet CC/Chimera Heal.... So Lonewolf is useless in PvP in its current state...
06/22/2014 03:44 PMPosted by Kolacz
I also forgot to mention that MM hunters who choose lone wolf in pvp will also be losing out on Roar of Sacrifice... A lifesaving ability. I feel like losing that ability let alone is the price to pay for not having a pet as it is a direct pet ability... but abilities like intimidation and master's call the Hunter casts himself and should still be able to be utilized...

As of right now... Lone wolf makes a MM hunter lose the pet's ability to put more damage on the target/Roar of Sacrifice/Intimidation/Spirit Bond and Master's Call. On top of losing Scare Beast/Scatter shot/Silencing shot/Pet CC/Chimera Heal.... So Lonewolf is useless in PvP in its current state...


Same could be said about focusing shot. SInce you cant move while you are casting.

Exotic Ammunitions is pretty good though so there is that
06/22/2014 08:16 PMPosted by Renrashin
Exotic Ammunitions is pretty good though so there is that


I was really looking forward to playing petless in pvp but without sac alone, that is impossible, not to mention freedom and spirit bond--especially with the heal not being affected by battle fatigue. But yes, at least Exotic Ammunition looks good. Passive conc shot + dmg or a nice constant dot, please and thank you. Guess Zeke will be sticking around after all.
Unfair? Not at all. Its a CHOICE you make. You get extra damage and give up other stuff. I dont see the problem.
The problem is it's a talent, you aren't supposed to give stuff up, it's supposed to just be a boost. Hate to also compare but locks do get altered talents when they go petless.
I reserve the right to Necro this thread in Beta and when it goes Live.
06/20/2014 04:10 PMPosted by Kolacz
In the current state of WOD patch notes and tweets by Blizzard, if a hunter uses Lone Wolf, then they won't be able to benefit from Spirit Bond or Master's Call. Anyone else think it's a little unfair to have a talent that cancels out another one? yes there are other options... exhilaration and iron hawk, but I'd rather have an endless passive heal because it's so much better. If we are going to have talents, we shouldn't have to worry about having one cancel out another.

Without Master's call, MM hunters in pvp will have limited options to keep a melee at bay - especially after losing scatter shot, scare beast, and the pet cc that was so valuable to MM hunters.

Solutions? I'm thinking spirit bond should still work if Lone Wolf is active... after all... it is your spirits bonding. Master's call could be used and your pet spawns for a second just to intercept you?

But the argument would be Lone Wolf is supposed to increase your damage by 30% but you're paying the price of losing a pet, a steady heal, and mobility. That's a steep price to pay in its current state... pets do quite a bit of damage when they're active anyway...


Then don't take that talent? WOuldn't the other two be much more solid choices instead of choosing to gimp yourself to not use a pet?
06/25/2014 05:06 AMPosted by Azureia
Then don't take that talent? WOuldn't the other two be much more solid choices instead of choosing to gimp yourself to not use a pet?


The other talent is even worse imo. Exotic Amunitions is awesome though and should be the go to choice atm.
All good reasons aside:

This wouldnt be the first talent that cancels out other talents/abilities.

The general consensus on blizzards part has been "then don't choose those two"

I'm iffy on the whole thing tbh, I'm liking where hunters are going for the most part. I WAS worried, but when you see what they are doing to other classes I kindof had a sigh of relief that hunters are staying true
06/24/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Arte
The problem is it's a talent, you aren't supposed to give stuff up, it's supposed to just be a boost. Hate to also compare but locks do get altered talents when they go petless.


30% more damage is a boost! Also, you can blame all the masses of inexperienced and even some vets for such a talent even existing. I remember seeing tons of posts saying stuff to the effect of, "I wish I didnt have to worry about a pet, omg"

Lastly, I dont think when it was designed ( no matter how much people think it wasnt thought out ; opinions ) I dont think pvp was in mind. Losing an ability such as master's call for example. Not exactly pvp friendly.
Complain all you want but lone wolf was not put there for pvp purposes.

Its pretty clear.to me it was put there for raids and even 5 mans.

Both top players and beginners can use it. I cant count the number of times I have seen beginner hunters accidentally send their pet across the map to aggro a whole room and then the dumb tank instead of just letting the pet die, jumps in and wipes the whole raid. Or when tanks like to take shorcuts in 5 mans and a hunter forgets to dismiss his pet b4 jumping off an edge and his pet runs down the ramp to meet him aggroing everything on the way?

On the other end of the spectrum, think about how much easier it would have been to do things like solo the belts on Heroic seigecrafter? I hated having to dismiss my pet between each belt and paying a heavy penalty when i either forgot or didnt have time (I learned it was better to dismiss anyway, the dps loss was so bad). Or how about how your pet cant get to the engineer on garrosh? Or the pathing issues on Mag? There have been pathing issues every expansion, but with lone wolf those are a thing of the past!

so I dont really care the effect on PVP, it was not meant for PVP. Anyone who does not like lone wolf obviously dosn't raid enough to understand how badly it is needed to keep your dps reliable in any situation/boss fight.

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