Effect of Lone Wolf on MM PVP: let's complain

Hunter
10/05/2014 07:21 PMPosted by Festysmell
Complain all you want but lone wolf was not put there for pvp purposes.

Its pretty clear.to me it was put there for raids and even 5 mans.

Both top players and beginners can use it. I cant count the number of times I have seen beginner hunters accidentally send their pet across the map to aggro a whole room and then the dumb tank instead of just letting the pet die, jumps in and wipes the whole raid. Or when tanks like to take shorcuts in 5 mans and a hunter forgets to dismiss his pet b4 jumping off an edge and his pet runs down the ramp to meet him aggroing everything on the way?

On the other end of the spectrum, think about how much easier it would have been to do things like solo the belts on Heroic seigecrafter? I hated having to dismiss my pet between each belt and paying a heavy penalty when i either forgot or didnt have time (I learned it was better to dismiss anyway, the dps loss was so bad). Or how about how your pet cant get to the engineer on garrosh? Or the pathing issues on Mag? There have been pathing issues every expansion, but with lone wolf those are a thing of the past!

so I dont really care the effect on PVP, it was not meant for PVP. Anyone who does not like lone wolf obviously dosn't raid enough to understand how badly it is needed to keep your dps reliable in any situation/boss fight.


I see ppl say this about H Siege all the time but don't understand what the complaint is. I never had a pet despawn issue doing belts. What is causing problems there? The only time I ever had an issue was when I moved from belts to platform. Pet would sometimes despawn if I was kiting the laser and didn't pull him off the boss. Maybe I just got lucky, Bc it didn't happen much.

For the lone wolf conversation, I think you need to accept a reality here. You wanted a petless hunter. You got one. The fact that your getting any benefits from the pet at all is amazing. I'm sure they'll make some adjustments but don't expect to have all the perks of having a pet when you take the talent to get rid of it.
10/06/2014 08:23 AMPosted by Enikka
I see ppl say this about H Siege all the time but don't understand what the complaint is. I never had a pet despawn issue doing belts. What is causing problems there? The only time I ever had an issue was when I moved from belts to platform. Pet would sometimes despawn if I was kiting the laser and didn't pull him off the boss. Maybe I just got lucky, Bc it didn't happen much.


If you are soloing belt, you have to dismiss your pet before getting off the belt every time, or else its respawn on the ground is delayed enough that you are further delayed come the next wave of weapons for you to destroy on the belt. If you are disengaging onto the belt, it can take up to 15-20 seconds for the pet to warp up to the belt while on passive, enough to screw you over if you don't have enough CD's or procs to deal with a weapon while the pet is gone. To counter this, you got to either use the rotation strat, and have 2 people alternate belts, as using the pipe causes the pet to despawn and respawn automatically, or you dismiss your pet after each weapon is destroyed and then resumon the pet when you are on the belt again.

Its manageable, but its still a pain to deal with.
Anyone who is just saying oh it's not for pvp is being ridiculous. There is simply no reason it can't be for pvp as well. Make spirit bond and master's call still work without the pet. I'd even be okay having to dismiss the pet after mc. It's not OP at all.
I'm used to people killing my pet in pvp regardless of my spec, I guess they presume that I'm BM and haven't big red kitty'ed yet or something.

It's healer, pet, then whatever.
06/24/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Arte
The problem is it's a talent, you aren't supposed to give stuff up, it's supposed to just be a boost. Hate to also compare but locks do get altered talents when they go petless.

This

Lone Wolf is just better suited as a Glyph (potentially with an adjustment for Master's Call to work on the Hunter's target).

Let MM/SV have the BM Talent, there are a few times when a super pet for them would be useful even. (Solo/Small Group, Fights with high pet up time, low Hunter uptime, etc)
Tosan was playing MM lone wolf on his livestream last night. He liked it, and he also like the "casting" playstyle that MM has on beta. Which isn't real surprising, considering that he plays a lot of mage.

Hope they make the other two specs (or at least one of them) viable for those of us who don't like to cast.
10/06/2014 11:04 AMPosted by Verdash
06/24/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Arte
The problem is it's a talent, you aren't supposed to give stuff up, it's supposed to just be a boost. Hate to also compare but locks do get altered talents when they go petless.

This


I would love a link to a blog, forum post, interview, et al where someone at Blizzard stated that they would never create any talents with a gain/loss mechanic.
10/06/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Mizuko
I would love a link to a blog, forum post, interview, et al where someone at Blizzard stated that they would never create any talents with a gain/loss mechanic.

Pretty sure they haven't, but there hasn't been very many talents that actually have trade offs (beyond not having this other talent) built into their function.

Even the Mage 90 talents are not "trading away" functionality for a mild gain, and those are the closest you will see beyond GrimSac and Lone Wolf.

Glyphs, on the other hand, have been heavily into "lose some, gain some" since implemented (yes there are some strict "be better" glyphs, not claiming that).

But taking all of that out, what sounds better:

Talents as is

vs

All 3 specs getting Adaptability, Lone Wolf becoming a Major Glyph (MM, SV only).
10/06/2014 12:04 PMPosted by Verdash
But taking all of that out, what sounds better:

Talents as is

vs

All 3 specs getting Adaptability, Lone Wolf becoming a Major Glyph (MM, SV only).


Talent as is, as a personal preference. Having some talents that are just a boost is fine, but all of them being that way is homogenized and boring. Trade-offs make the choice more interesting and impactful.

Additionally, it stems the tide of the obfuscation and homogenization of spec identity by keeping a pet-boosting talent exclusive to BM. Again, as a personal preference, I'd rather not see more steps toward making this an amorphous blob of a 1.5 spec class.
10/06/2014 11:11 PMPosted by Mizuko
Talent as is, as a personal preference. Having some talents that are just a boost is fine, but all of them being that way is homogenized and boring. Trade-offs make the choice more interesting and impactful.

Just differing opinions then. To me, Talents should be clear cut improvements on your character (potentially not as good as the other 2 choices, scenario depending). Glyphs should be where "trade off" adjustments go.

And MM/SV don't have to get Adaptability, it was just a "lazy way" of handling the shifting of Lone Wolf to a Glyph. As I mentioned though, it wouldn't be completely useless for MM/SV, but would be a fairly niche talent for those 2 specs.
Honestly as someone who has PVPed on the Beta (I am sub-Garbo tier beware) and has lost to some pretty damn good hunters I can confirm that in reality the bonus damage from Exotic Munitions isn't mess-around town, and that if you for some reason decide to let A MM free cast Focusing Shot you're donezo. Especially with the MoC reset changes. You aren't getting out of execute range the way that leaves you alive. I can't tell yet but on occasion is almost seems like the changes to TotH were a buff to MM. Wow so pressure, very crit, much bleed. The rapid fire crit works in tandem with Aimed and Focusing/Steady as well.

This is more about the fact that IMO as a general guideline I think that the other two talents will be stronger to the point that there isn't a way to really 'fix' LW. It's just a reversal of GoSac. Pet spec takes the talent, Non-Pet specs avoid like the plague.

That being said aside from the obvious RoSac, MC, and Spirit Bond, people tend to forget about the Animal Bond glyph, the fact that Exhilaration is half as strong (Weak already), and intimidation will be useless. Which isn't really too scoffable.
Spirit Bond Should work with the last tier talent for a Class
When Lone Wolf is active you should be able to still use Master's Call

in other words "Lone wolf makes a MM hunter lose the pet's ability to put more damage on the target/Roar of Sacrifice/Intimidation/Spirit Bond and Master's Call." should not be the case & it should not make hunters lose anything & only gain stuff since it is a last Tier talent
06/22/2014 12:40 PMPosted by Khuen
Back when Ghostcrawler was around and they nerfed GoSac on Locks he said something like "You are a pet class, you should be punished for not having a pet".

If that was more than just his own personal opinion then be glad they aren't taking more away from you when you chose it.

You are trading complexity for simplicity. Complexity should have an edge over simplicity. That is why most passive talent options are not as ideal as active ability choices (i.e. Blink vs Murder)
To anyone that says lone wolf is useless, you obviously aren't thinking about Rapid Fire.

DPS is irrelevant to good burst. As it stands, MM's burst is godly, and Lone Wolf makes it even better. You don't need to do the most optimal amount of damage over a long fight- you just need to do a lot of damage at the right time. For this, Lone Wolf is superb.
11/20/2014 02:07 PMPosted by Drillgorg
DPS is irrelevant to good burst. As it stands, MM's burst is godly, and Lone Wolf makes it even better. You don't need to do the most optimal amount of damage over a long fight- you just need to do a lot of damage at the right time. For this, Lone Wolf is superb.


This is a very true statement but what people want is the Lone Wolf damage increase PLUS all the utility of having a pet. There has to be a trade off for dropping your pet otherwise everyone will be running Lone Wolf and no one will be running Exotic Munitions.
at OP, you don't seem to be getting the picture here. Lone wolf was designed to be a pve talent. It is in fact the biggest dps increase of all 3 choices as MM or sv when raiding. also as someone else said having lone wolf doesn't stop you from calling out your pet to get your master's call or self heal. the only thing is dismissing your pet is the annoying part to regain the lone wolf buff. I've tested lone wolf in pvp. and it just requires too many wasted globals doing non harmful spells. If you're playing a hunter at lvl 100, you where intended to be using Exotic Munitions: frozen ammo in pvp by default to further increase your kiting capilities while keeping the pet for it's utility. and you where meant to go lone wolf/iron hawk/post haste/crows/binding shot.

basically what I"m saying is, why in the world would you want to use an unviable spell to begin with such as indimiation as a sv/mm hunter anyways, binding shot is on a shorter cd and stuns multiple targets, not just one. and why would you want CTHC or narrow escape anyways in pve. not like you'll be needing to root anything or you'll be going out of your way to do so since you want to be standing still to maintain sniper training, and the shortened cd on disengage is really unessesary in pve as you don't need to use it that often, and in pvp it's even a viable option because rooting in pvp or breaking roots with postehaste is WAY more utility. also regarding spirit bond, you don't want that anyways in pve, you'd be using iron hawk by default since you already have healers healing you.

Also regarding soloing things with lone wolf, its not hard, kite like how hunters where meant to kite, you can keep concussive shot 100% uptime and have cheetah up with glyph since hawk is baked in. meaning you can run faster then you where intended to run and aren't punished when hit and your mob runs slower. and utilitize your traps and binding shots when you have more then one enemy, and just camo stealth after combat if you're low to regain health before pulling your next few mobs. also if you plan to mongo stand still and maintain your sniper training and get hit the face, you'll most likely kill the mob before it kills you even if it's a bigger mob meant to be handled by a tank or multiple players.

I agree that yes. choosing lone wolf does limit your talent choices, but those are choices you won't be choosing regardless for pve as it was intended to be a dps increase for PvE.
The problem with the lvl 100 talents is one is suited for PvE (LW) and one is very much suited for PvP (EM)

The talents were not very well thought out, any hunter that raids without LW will be shooting himself/herself in the foot b/c they're missing out on a 30% increase to the core abilities, LW + Killshot is a deadly combo and you must be blind to be willing to pass that up.

Also we shouldn't be punished for 3 talents in EACH tier when we pick LW, we're basically getting limited options for choosing one talent, blizzard has been at the balancing game for years and still does not know how to balance it properly, we HAVE BM talents as MM/SV, all in the all it's basically a max/min game to play something you don't like just to be effective.

SV and MM talents should change just like how Shadow priests talents change on spec, and how all of the Warriors talents change on spec, this was a poorly implemented and lazy design to shove this down our throats.

We would like choices between each talents at 100, not which one is the most effective based upon a given scenario.
Lone wolf is for pve.

Stop trying to make it into something it is not. You guys cried so badly to get a petless hunter; now you are crying because you have one. Just be quiet already.
12/04/2014 10:56 PMPosted by Urian
YEAH I WANT 30% DAMAGE INCREASE WITH NO REPERCUSSIONS!


The repercussion in pvp is you don't have your pet to do damage while you're cc'd or out of los and you can't keep people in combat with it

I think losing ROS is fair enough, but there's no reason spirit link shouldn't work

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