The Feel of Retribution

Paladin
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07/29/2014 01:53 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
That's not exactly a great attitude to have for a raider honestly. You should always be willing to learn and improve yourself.


My apologies, here. It came out a bit harshly, and was more of a jest. I simply have other priorities in life, so I learn what I can when I can, but don't fret too much over the minutia as far as mechanics go.

07/29/2014 01:35 PMPosted by Berith
Maybe ? Different classes cater to different people. You like the slow pace of Warriors, then by all means, play warriors. It will just rub off wrong on people if you come here and ask them to agree with you that Paladins should be played like Warriors. We don't want to play Warriors, hence why we play Paladins in the first place.


I was never meaning to offend the Ret Paladins here. I was merely stating my dreamy, uninformed, personal opinion, and wondered if others felt that way.

And really, it was the question of, does the way Ret Paladins play match up with how, in your own mind, a heavily armored holy warrior (not WoW specific) would play. If I don't think about WoW or its gameplay and imagine a warrior and a paladin on a field of battle, in a fantasy setting... In my mind, the warrior would be fast and brutal, and the paladin slower and methodical. Maybe its just a quirk. Who knows?
07/29/2014 02:14 PMPosted by Aeremis
And really, it was the question of, does the way Ret Paladins play match up with how, in your own mind, a heavily armored holy warrior (not WoW specific) would play. If I don't think about WoW or its gameplay and imagine a warrior and a paladin on a field of battle, in a fantasy setting... In my mind, the warrior would be fast and brutal, and the paladin slower and methodical. Maybe its just a quirk. Who knows?


My AD&D Paladin was a dual wielding fighter in the early 90s. No. I see Knights being very agile with their blades and weapons and being able to move fast is not something that goes against the mythos at all in my mind.

Quite the contrary, I feel a Paladin is more akin to a trained Knight that can show martial prowess and thus dexterity and speed with the precision of his hits, while a Warrior is more akin to a barbarian. Slow, heavy, but very high impact hits that you either dodge or die to.

Sanctity of Battle just feels like the Deity is assisting with your weapon swings and providing urgency and swiftness to guide you in battle. It is very Paladin-feely.
07/29/2014 02:14 PMPosted by Aeremis
In my mind, the warrior would be fast and brutal, and the paladin slower and methodical.


That's actually Blizzard's conceptual difference between fury and arms.. except arms is the one that actually plays much faster.
07/29/2014 02:07 PMPosted by Maegoree
Aeremis, our fast-paced playstyle is really the substance of what a lot of rets complain about their utility. In t16, we are nearly gcd capped since we get quite a few free DS's because of the 4p bonus. This means that in order to use utility you have to sacrifice hp generation since when you need to use it never really lines up with an open gcd.

The other thing our utility requires is a lot of attention to the raid frames. Offhealing (and I absolutely hate that offhealing is considered our utility), and not wasting it, means keeping one eye on the raid frames, one eye on the ground (so you aren't the one taking unnecessary damage and needing that offhealing), all while maintaining your rotation.

If you feel that everything is happening too fast, you really need to make sure you have all this information in easily accessible places. I use IceHUD so I can have a health bar in the middle of my screen (and I like their hp tracker too). I use extraCD to show cd on trinkets. I use clcret to show when things are off cd and to help me get back in the groove of my rotation if I get flustered, however, it's best not to zone in on clcret and it isn't always going to provide optimal usage (or use weak auras so you can organize your dps abilities in a visible spot so you can see when they come off cd). You may already do these things, if so, great. If not I would highly suggest it.

But yes, you do strike the nerve that a lot of rets don't like about our utility - that so much of it is ST we lose dps using it. And by losing Devo in WoD, we are losing our easy utility (or hit it and forget it ability), meaning to justify bringing us, we have to excel in using our ST utility.


So sorry I missed this the first pass through. You've hit the nail on the head with how I feel right now. I CAN do utility things... but it means no HP/DPS gain. So it always feels like a loss at some point. Personally, I get confused sometimes on rotation once I go off and do something else, so it feels like this rythm I've had gets out of whack.

I use HealBot carefully laid out (WoW mouse with extra buttons and most buttons do something) and Weak Auras for bringing info to directly below my toon, or near my cast bar. (I keybind a few things like stuns and such, but thats it). Just still feeling like it hard to look at and process raid team info while also keeping track of Inquisition and other things.
07/29/2014 02:19 PMPosted by Berith
Sanctity of Battle just feels like the Deity is assisting with your weapon swings and providing urgency and swiftness to guide you in battle. It is very Paladin-feely.


Ah-ha!!!! And that is an awesome way to see them. One I never really looked at. My own take was what I called the difference between Arthur and Lancelot. I saw Lancelot as the fighter and Arthur the paladin. In the D&D mindset, your warrior sounds like a barbarian. lol

I can take this to heart now and really re-think my own opinion of paladins. =)

Thanks Berith!
07/29/2014 02:27 PMPosted by Aeremis
while also keeping track of Inquisition and other things.


Do you have any addon set up to assist you in tracking Inquisition and Holy Power?

07/29/2014 02:14 PMPosted by Aeremis
I simply have other priorities in life, so I learn what I can when I can, but don't fret too much over the minutia as far as mechanics go.


Understandable but it's not really a daunting or time consuming task to stay on top of things.

07/29/2014 02:14 PMPosted by Aeremis
And really, it was the question of, does the way Ret Paladins play match up with how, in your own mind, a heavily armored holy warrior (not WoW specific) would play.


Honestly from a pure RP/lore standpoint I've always thought the speedy style of Retribution was kinda odd too. It's not really how Paladins started out being represented in WoW, Human Paladins were created to essentially be heavily armored healers on the battlefield, but then who says Blizzard has to stay true to old interpretations.

All that aside I love the pace of Ret, it's just something you have to get used to.

Or like you mentioned earlier WoW Paladins may just not be your thing.

07/29/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Berith
See, you misquote me, my first point was this :


It wasn't a misquote and no your first point was this.

07/29/2014 11:23 AMPosted by Berith
If his Retribution gear is in the same state as his Prot gear (aka, god awful), then no, he's probably not quite there.


You don't seem to grasp the concept that you can offer advice and critique without being insulting.

There was nothing antagonistic about the opening post, just someone stating their opinion on and experiences with Retribution and asking if anyone shared it.

07/29/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Berith
You still don't get it that I was again simply pointing out the confusion caused by Blizzard with our broken loot tables ? After all my posts trying to point it out..


Yes after all your back peddling posts trying to claim that after people jumped on you for it when you were expecting high fives and reinforcement.

That certainly wasn't the only example of that behavior from you, just the most glaring and defining.

07/29/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Berith
then frankly you haven't been reading many of my posts.


I certainly try not to.

07/29/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Berith
I guess I never helped anyone here.


Oh I'm sure you've helped some, you have the knowledge to do so and usually there's good advice buried behind your mostly antagonistic posts.

07/29/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Berith
It seems you post to attack others on their "Attitude" all the time.


Not really, I just call it how I see it.

07/29/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Berith
Seriously, get over yourself


Oh I did, ages ago.
07/29/2014 02:35 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
I certainly try not to.


You sure seem to know a lot about me for someone who fails to read my posts.

07/29/2014 02:35 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
you have the knowledge to do so and usually there's good advice buried behind your mostly antagonistic posts.


Well, I'll be blunt : your posts are nothing but antagonistic, offering no advice. So at least mine have that on yours ^_^.

Good day, good luck on fixing yourself before calling others out. There's a word for that, but it might be antagonistic for me to point out what it is.
07/29/2014 02:44 PMPosted by Berith
You sure seem to know a lot about me for someone who fails to read my posts.


It only takes a glance every now and then to see that your posting hasn't changed.

07/29/2014 02:44 PMPosted by Berith
your posts are nothing but antagonistic, offering no advice.


Maybe towards you but not in general.

I give advice where appropriate if some of the more knowledgeable posters around here haven't already gotten to it first and call out crap when I feel the need.

07/29/2014 02:44 PMPosted by Berith
Good day


You too.
07/29/2014 10:18 AMPosted by Aeremis
Anyone else think the feeling of Retribution Paladins is off somewhat?
Eh, subjective question. I feel that paladins are in a good spot. Looking back from Vanilla WoW, we've come a long way, going from just being low dps and utility, to middle of the pack to high dps and utility, as well as mechanical adjustments to make gameplay less "faceroll". The only thing I miss, is seals actually being worth something, seeing seals are very paladin-esque, and add more to that "paladiny" vibe.

All in all, I'm satisfied with where ret is right now, and I hope only more improvements are made to the current rendition of it. (hint hint exorcism)
07/29/2014 03:11 PMPosted by Holymez
The only thing I miss, is seals actually being worth something, seeing seals are very paladin-esque, and add more to that "paladiny" vibe.


Not to intrude, but Seals were very much an after-thought, implemented at the last minutes in less than 2 weeks, to give us a more passive combat system so we could concentrate on "battle healing", which never panned out (we ended up as back of the raid healers). In Beta, we had strikes. Crusader Strike was actually our bread and butter ability until very late Beta.

If anything, Seals are based on the concept of the AD&D Cleric. An armored priest that can survive the thick of battle, but only to provide support for more accomplished fighters, not to actually fight the battles himself, with only enough offensive ability to push back foes.

I don't think anyone that really played Vanilla/TBC likes the Seal/Judge system or wants it back. Well maybe those who rolled Paladins to be Priests in Plate (remember that ? Priests in Plate ? #1 forum complaint, #2 being "Cleric OMG!").
[quote="135931467058"]
This unfortunately looks like your typical Male Draenei toon : poorly played.


This is why I cry myself to sleep at night...

In other news, Retribution, to me, embodies the swift vengeance of a powerful deity (or, in this case, the Light which represents the good spectrum of deific power) when wrongdoing or evil works its terrible deeds in the world.

The insidious nature of most evil renders a swift response the most effective, thus, the Sanctity of Battle class feature becomes a lore-wise appropriate representation of that swiftness.

My 2 cp
07/29/2014 10:18 AMPosted by Aeremis
Anyone else think the feeling of Retribution Paladins is off somewhat?

I'm really starting to feel this way, but none so much as after raiding a while with my TG Fury Warrior.

The realization came when, while playing my Fury Warrior, I realized that I am throwing down banners, using Rallying cry, using Vigilance on team members, etc. I'm not only pushing out a good bit of DPS, but really providing a utility to my team.

Now, to counter my own argument, I said to myself, "Aeremis, don't be silly. You've got Hands to Protect, to provide Salvation, and to Sacrifice for your teammates. You can Hand them the Light or speak Words of Glory to heal. You can bring a near dead teammate back to full vigor in emergencies. Your Devotion can cast an Aura to lessen the burden of healers and teammates when things are really bad, as well."

But... thinking on it some more... I only do these things when times and targets are planned or called. On my Warrior, I'm scanning the raid to see when I can give a boost here and there. I've even jumped in to Defensive Stance to help a fallen tank, willing to Die by the Sword if I have to.

And then it hit me. My warrior allows me TIME to do this. For half of the time, I'm hitting a few basic attacks to build up rage. The when Colossus Smash comes off cooldown, I open up and rip into the enemy with hard-hitting attacks for a few seconds. Then.. back to basic attacks and attention moved to other things. Over all, I'm doing damage about right where I should considering iLvl, (Both a tad low on my team, but still gearing)

Now... On this toon, my beloved Ret pally, I am over 50% haste and 50% mastery when buffed. My attacks are a ceaseless. Always an attack popping up to use. BUT... I have to monitor Holy Power, and keep up Inquisition. Don't want to waste Holy Power, but need to two extra for when Inquisition is about to come down. Gotta make sure Execution Sentence goes off at the right time while GoAK is up. Art of War proc... gotta use it. And everything is happening FAST! I've got bars and timers, auras and icons to show me everything that is going on and making sure timing at breakneck speeds is accurate. Also, this still doesn't put me at DPS levels near the warlocks, warriors, or hunters. Close... but I ain't winning any contests.

So... guess who barely gets time to check his own health.... At this point I just hit HoL when it procs. Hope it helped me. No time to check... Inquisition is about to go down, and AW just came back up.

Maybe it's just me, but doesn't it seem fury warriors should be more specialized toward constantly hammering on the opponent? Fast and critical seems like it should be their motto. Less time to think about the team. More time spent wickedly carving up their opponent, and defending themselves while in the thick of it.

I just feel like my Ret. Paladin should be wielding a large mace, landing slower but heavily damaging blows to the enemy. And then having time to scan his team and surroundings, and providing a bit of protection and succor where it is needed.

Wouldn't we be better off as Mastery/Crit? Make Fury Crit/Haste?

Does WoD alleviate any of this? I would just really appreciate a hybrid/utility class with some time for utility.
Believe it or not, I agree with some of what you're saying but posting this here won't get you many friends.

Retribution paladins probably SHOULD hit harder and less frequently while Fury should NOT be the spec of huge spikes in damage (i.e. Fury's secondary stat priority would be Haste>Crit>Mastery and Retribution's would be Mastery>Crit>Haste), but I don't see Blizzard overhauling 3 melee classes at this point. Arms warriors seem to be getting most of the redesign juice. I just don't think they are going to really change retribution's overall design much and I'm ok with what they've done so far aside from the loss of Devotion Aura...
Yay! I love threads filled with irony!
07/29/2014 04:21 PMPosted by Galuda
Retribution paladins probably SHOULD hit harder and less frequently


When I see something like that, Paladin is far from my mind. I see Barbarian.

Heck, I still believe Paladins should be able to Dual Wield, or do Shield/Sword DPS, not use 2 handers.
Guys, more rage please, i just started the popcorn
07/29/2014 04:47 PMPosted by Berith
When I see something like that, Paladin is far from my mind. I see Barbarian.

Heck, I still believe Paladins should be able to Dual Wield, or do Shield/Sword DPS, not use 2 handers.
I'm curious why you would say this...

The original Paladin hero in the RTS game used a huge 2-handed hammer and had one of the slowest base attack speeds in the game (but one of the most satisfying thuds when it connected). Uther the Lightbringer and Arthas (before he acquires Frostmourne) all wield huge 2-handed hammers during the human campaign.

The Burning Crusade cinematic features a draenei paladin. He's also using an exotic 2-handed bludgeoning weapon.

Even most of the artwork on wowwiki seems to imply paladins are associated with large blunt weapons... although I'm sure you can find artwork on google with them wielding almost anything so this is a moot point. I honestly believe the paladin class was based off the old 1st and 2nd edition D&D cleric class, but the strict "no edged weapons" restriction would be impractical in a MMORPG.
No edged weapons was always a hilarious thing in D&D.

Gygax thinks that it's better for paladins to cause their enemies great suffering and lifelong debilitation than actual dying quickly.
07/29/2014 08:18 PMPosted by Galuda
I'm curious why you would say this...

The original Paladin hero in the RTS game used a huge 2-handed hammer and had one of the slowest base attack speeds in the game (but one of the most satisfying thuds when it connected). Uther the Lightbringer and Arthas (before he acquires Frostmourne) all wield huge 2-handed hammers during the human campaign.


You're thinking of the Knight unit. Frankly, never really got into the whole "2 handed hammer" Knights and Paladins of the Warcraft II thing. Just really doesn't feel like what Knights in usual fantasy settings are. It's more akin to Conan the Barbarian than to what Paladins usually are.

07/29/2014 08:18 PMPosted by Galuda
The Burning Crusade cinematic features a draenei paladin. He's also using an exotic 2-handed bludgeoning weapon.


And the way they've portrayed Paladins as basically Clerics for a long time (a lot of us old timer AD&D guys remember the Cleric, the plated priest that couldn't use edged weapons because of his faith, didn't get multiple attacks per turn, and was basically gimped melee with crappier spells than a Magic-User, and none of us really liked the class) is a sore point for a lot of Vanilla/TBC players.

I still don't feel the 2 handed hammer is a Paladin thing. It feels barbaric.

07/29/2014 08:18 PMPosted by Galuda
I honestly believe the paladin class was based off the old 1st and 2nd edition D&D cleric class, but the strict "no edged weapons" restriction would be impractical in a MMORPG.


Finally you get it!

But most of us Paladins don't associate with that. We think it's awful. Long live the Holy Avenger +5.

The thing is, the WoW Paladins is 2 things :

- It is a Cleric. The Clerics of Northshire, trained by the remaining Knights of Stormwind and the Knights of Lordaeron in martial techniques to help them survive on the Battle field. These guys are what Holy Paladins represent.
- The actual Knights. Great fighters with very good martial prowess, trained in channeling the light by the Clerics of Northshire, to assist their comrades on the battle field with protective spells and offensive abilities able to smite the undead. This would be the Retribution/Protection Paladins.

07/29/2014 08:41 PMPosted by Cayse
No edged weapons was always a hilarious thing in D&D.

Gygax thinks that it's better for paladins to cause their enemies great suffering and lifelong debilitation than actual dying quickly.


The limitation was for Clerics, Paladins could use edged weapons. Heck, one of their abilities only triggered when they had a Holy sword in hand (dispel aura).
07/29/2014 09:09 PMPosted by Berith
Finally you get it!

But most of us Paladins don't associate with that. We think it's awful. Long live the Holy Avenger +5.

The thing is, the WoW Paladins is 2 things :

- It is a Cleric. The Clerics of Northshire, trained by the remaining Knights of Stormwind and the Knights of Lordaeron in martial techniques to help them survive on the Battle field. These guys are what Holy Paladins represent.
- The actual Knights. Great fighters with very good martial prowess, trained in channeling the light by the Clerics of Northshire, to assist their comrades on the battle field with protective spells and offensive abilities able to smite the undead. This would be the Retribution/Protection Paladins.
I think we've kinda beat this to death. My original question was why you felt paladins should be able to dual-wield. Historically, that's never really been a fighting style I associated with European knights.
I personally have no problem with a paladin wielding a big 2-handed axe or 2-handed sword.

Barbarians are associated more with axes than other 2-handed weapons. The sword is seen as a more civilized weapon, but still a pure instrument of war. And the hammer... well, I'll get to that in a second.

07/29/2014 08:41 PMPosted by Cayse
No edged weapons was always a hilarious thing in D&D.

Gygax thinks that it's better for paladins to cause their enemies great suffering and lifelong debilitation than actual dying quickly.
It's like that line Odin uses in the first Thor movie about Mjolnir. The hammer has the power to create and build... or destroy. So it's an ideal symbol for a class that's built around the mythos of protecting and uplifting the innocent. Sure, you can use axes to cut down trees but they seem to be more a brutal war weapon associated with slaughter. Garrosh is closely associated with an axe and for good reason.

Be honest, if you see a guy walking down the street with a 20lb sledge hammer, you probably won't give it a second thought. You see a guy walking down the street with a 20lb sword (especially unsheathed), you're going to be a bit more concerned unless he's part of a parade.

07/29/2014 09:09 PMPosted by Berith
You're thinking of the Knight unit. Frankly, never really got into the whole "2 handed hammer" Knights and Paladins of the Warcraft II thing. Just really doesn't feel like what Knights in usual fantasy settings are. It's more akin to Conan the Barbarian than to what Paladins usually are.
I was referring to Warcraft 3, the last RTS made before the MMORPG came out. The Knight unit uses a sword and he's mounted. The paladin unit uses a hammer and is not mounted. Conan the Barbarian does not use blunt weapons. Axes and swords, yes... blunt objects, not so much. I used to collect Conan the Barbarian - I can probably count the number of times he's used a blunt weapon on one hand over the course of 10+ years of comics I've read.

Or better yet... google 'conan the barbarian' and count the number of pictures on the images tab that shows him with a blunt weapon vs an edged weapon. Conan has traditionally been a bastard sword kinda guy.
07/30/2014 06:13 AMPosted by Galuda
My original question was why you felt paladins should be able to dual-wield. Historically, that's never really been a fighting style I associated with European knights.


I had something written up, my browser ate it. Gist of it : AD&D, Warrior sub-classes, only way to do decent damage. Dual wield.

07/30/2014 06:13 AMPosted by Galuda
The Knight unit uses a sword and he's mounted. The paladin unit uses a hammer and is not mounted


You're really really confused if talking about Warcraft II : Tides of Darkness here and there's no point in continuing any discussion with you until you get informed.

http://www.computerhope.com/games/games/pictures/war2.gif

The sprites of units didn't not change when you upgraded their class, only the portrait. And look at the Knight/Paladin sprite. It is mounted and has a Hammer. The Warcraft II Knight is a hammer wielding unit.

Like I said, that is moot, I don't feel that was a right choice and I don't think it fits the class Mythos. I don't know why you try to keep shoving Warcraft design decisions at me when I specifically told you multiple times that I personally do not agree with the design philosophy. It looks like a Cleric. We don't like Clerics. Did you like Clerics ?

07/30/2014 06:13 AMPosted by Galuda
Conan the Barbarian does not use blunt weapons. Axes and swords, yes... blunt objects, not so much.


2 Handers. My point stands.

07/30/2014 06:13 AMPosted by Galuda
Barbarians are associated more with axes than other 2-handed weapons. The sword is seen as a more civilized weapon, but still a pure instrument of war. And the hammer... well, I'll get to that in a second.


2 handed Swords are blunt weapons and do crushing damage. Or don't you know your history ? And Conan. The Barbarian. Sword. Your own words.

2 handers are Barbaric weapons. 1 handed blades are more fit for the Knight mythos.

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