Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

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01/05/2011 11:59 AMPosted by Dubalicious
Alright so what's everybody's thoughts on our Tier pieces/bonuses?

Right now my plan is to pass up both the 2pc and 4pc (assuming I have better items to equip) and will probably only use the shoulders. Eventually I will be hoping to have a shot at Heroic Tier items at which time I would guess I will go for the 4pc bonus, but that's a long ways away and could change by the time I have any sort of shot at heroic tier items.

Obviously if you are prioritizing mastery or crit highly in your itemization the tier items are more attractive, but I'm curious what everyone's planning on doing.

I have a dilemma. I want the haste/spirit chest off of Magmaw, but then I would have 3 pieces I could use (helm, pants, shoulders), then one 359 epic to replace (gloves or chest).

We'll see how the rest of the week goes as far as downing bosses goes (we got two down last night), but I might end up skipping tier pieces.

I actually like the tier set bonuses. The 2pc is great for increasing your effective healing from your spam spell, and the 4pc is good for a bit of mana regen after popping our AoE heal, and every little bit helps after spending that much mana. I wish the stats were allocated haste/spirit pieces really make me cry on the inside.
I have been thinking about the tier a lot and Blizzard was very smart about what they did. They knew that Paladins would have a choice between crit/mastery and spirit/haste so the stats are very attractive for the crit/mastery build and the set bonuses are meh, but for spirit/haste build the stats are actually considerably more unattractive than the set pieces for crit and mastery but the bonuses for spirit/haste are pretty amazing. I am personally giving crit/mastery a shot so I am getting the tier pieces, but 5% crit to the spell you are giving priority to for spirit/haste without sacrificing your major stats is huge as well as your 4 piece which makes your holy radiance cost ~6k mana which is also crazy considering you can get up to 2 extra ticks by going haste and if you use it in tune with mana tide with your already crazy high spirit you might actually gain mana from the whole ordeal. I am not a math superstar so my numbers are all estimates if someone would like to check to give a better idea that would be boss.
Okay I just started browsing through this thread. I haven't really played a healing paladin since level 60. So bear with me while I try to read and catch up on all of this. I recently have played in WoLK 70 and 80 a NE arms Warrior. I just came back with the Cata release and rolled a human paladin, now 85 and running heroics. I've been looking at different builds and gear setups.

I may have missed it but is there anywhere in this thread where the break down of the caps are? such as hit and crit and all that... Then I will start getting into more of the priority of stats, which I have been going after int , haste , spr , crit , mastery ...

As I have read it seems to be two groups, for crit and for haste / spr.
01/05/2011 1:39 PMPosted by Dsire
I may have missed it but is there anywhere in this thread where the break down of the caps are?

Sorry Dsire, there are none!

We're healers, we don't care about hit, expertise and all that rubbish.

I suppose there's a spirit cap, which is when we can spam FoL non-stop for 10 minutes (longest fight in Cata that I'm aware of.)

I suppose there's a haste cap as well, 3491 to GCD cap.

I suppose there's a crit cap as well 100% crit (though IIRC, Blizzard caps crit @ 75%).

Which is to say, you will NOT be getting close to any of these caps. Don't even try. Balance your stats per:
1) Spirit to comfort
2) Haste to Comfort
3) 20% raid buffed crit
4) Keep Crit:Mastery = 1:1


Regarding tier gear. I haven't looked very closely at it. Honestly speaking, I don't like how little haste there is (read non-existent), but with reforging it's not that bad. All of it has spirit, which I consider pretty awesome.

The actual set bonuses feel somewhat lackluster, but I haven't really considered the alternatives yet.

2P seems relatively straightforward. It's 2.5% extra HPS and HPM on HL. HL doesn't really take up that much healing in a raid environment. Don't really care either way.

4P bonus looks promising. HR is looking pretty good in raid situations, and this basically says HR costs 1620 less mana to cast (1 spirit ~= 0.5 mp5, 10 seconds). If timed with Mana Tide, HR is costing about as much as HL to cast. In a broader sense, used on CD, we're talking about ~270 mp5 or ~540 spirit on average.

In reality, it's going to be worse, because this is using a strange rotation, and realistically, while we do use HR quite a bit, it's not something we can afford to use on CD.

So I would say

You WANT the set pieces if:
- You use Holy Radiance a lot.
- You like crit/mastery.

You do NOT want the set pieces if:
- You like haste
New changes on PTR:

Paladin (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents) Holy

* Divine Plea now gives you 12% of your total mana over 9 sec, up from 10% of your total mana over 15 sec.
* Light of Dawn base healing has been reduced by 40%, from 1008 - 1124 to 605 - 675.
* Tower of Radiance no longer affects Holy Light.

Nice change to Divine Plea! Now I wonder what's going to happen to the glyph, though. Doubt it'll stay at 5% additional mana...if they change it to 8% I wouldn't mind! :D

The other two are tooltip changes from that hotfix.
01/06/2011 10:00 AMPosted by Dubalicious
The change to DP is pretty awesome. Finding an 8 second window to use it is much more reasonable then finding a 15 second window (pretty much never under normal circumstances)

I would like to see LoD get a slight buff, something like 5-10% or make it scale based on number of targets healed. . . Nothing major, just something to make it not feel SO underwhelming.

It only feels underwhelming. If you look at the numbers you're actually pulling, you get roughly the same healing as a crit 3WoG (on the low end), or a crit DL (on the high end). Let's say 3 out of 5 crit, that's ~39k base healing done (smart, so very little overheal and the most in need benefit first), plus each heal procs PoI (which in turn can crit), the heals and the PoI transfer 50% through the beacon...

You can see that the numbers quickly add up, and even the base 39k healing is an attractive use of 3hp.

If anything, I'd like it if they made it subject to Eternal Glory as well.
01/06/2011 2:05 PMPosted by Císsa
If anything, I'd like it if they made it subject to Eternal Glory as well.

This would definitely make it a more attractive button to push. Every time I press it, I hope for an Eternal Glory proc...only to realize a bit later that it won't happen :(
So I made a big deal about Spell Selection then ended up cutting all of it because of character limitations @_@.

That was kind of silly of me, so here's the nitty gritty details.

Here's the general (i.e. works for all gear) HPS and HPM tables of our spells.
Caveats and Assumptions:

The amount a spell heals for is:
Final Heal = K * ( Base Power + SP Coefficient * Spell Power)
Generally K = 1.06 Divinity * 1.09 Conviction * (1 + 0.05 Seal of Insight + 0.15 Walk in Light)

I also consider the average heal, since I don't want to deal with ranges.

This math ignores RNG in the form of crits, procs and mastery. If you'd like to include crits, multiply K by (1 + Crit%/2). Likewise I ignore mastery. To include mastery, multiply K by (1+Shield%)*P for appropriate spells, where P is the probability a shield will be consumed. Generally P ~ 60%. Procs are somewhat more complicated to consider, but can be statistically modelled.

This math doesn't explicitly consider additional healing from Beacon of Light and PotI. However, since these scale equally with most spells, I ignore them for simplicity.

For instant spells (i.e. HR and HS) I ignore their cooldown. Their "cast time" is the GCD. I do this because this is the only time the spell will be guaranteed to consume. The rest of the time youre "free" to do something else.

I also pretend in the case for HR that the healing is all useful. This is possible to do with HR with proper planning, but is an idealization.

Haste is simplified to the variable H. In general:
H = 1.05 (raid buff) * 1.09 (JotP) * 1.03 (SoL) * (1 + Haste Rating/12812.5)

Holy Shock
K' = 1.7331
Heal = K' * (2738 + 0.269*SP)
Time = 1.5/H
Mana = 1873
HPS = H * 3163.4852 + H SP * 0.3108026
HPM = 2.53349 + SP * 0.00024891

Holy Light
K = 1.38648
Heal = K * (4400 + 0.432*SP)
Time = 2.5/H, Under IoL=1.5/H
Mana = 2107
HPS = H * 2440.2048 + H SP * 0.239583744
Under IoL HPS = H * 4067.008 + H SP * 0.39930624
HPM = 2.895 + 0.0002842 * SP

Divine Light
K = 1.38648
Heal = K * (11733 + 1.153*SP)
Mana = 7026
Time = 2.5/H, Under IoL=1.5/H
HPS = H * 6507 + H SP * 0.639
Under IoL HPS = H * 10845 + H SP * 1.06574096
HPM = 1.6699 + 0.0002275 * SP

Flash of Light
Heal = K*(7328 + 0.863 * SP)
Mana = 6323
Time = 1.5/H
HPS = H * 6773 + H SP * 0.798
HPM = 1.1589 + 0.0001892 * SP

Word of Glory (per HP and glyphed)
K = 1.50202
Heal = 2133 + 0.209*SP
Time = 1.5/H
HPS = H * 2135.87 + H SP * 0.20928

Light of Dawn (per HP per person, estimated)
K = 1.38648
Heal = 640 + 0.1321*SP
Time = 1.5/H
HPS = H * 592 + H SP * 0.1221

Holy Radiance (per tick per person under 8 yards)
K = 1.38648
Mana = 9368
Heal/Tick = 683 + 0.0672 * SP
Tick Time = 1/H
# Ticks = Round(10*H)
HPS/Person = H * 683 + H SP * 0.0672
Total Healing and HPM is non-continuous.
A "Typical" paladin in full Heroic gear:
SP - 5600
Haste Rating - 800 (6.244%)
H = 1.30015351292

GCD -> 1.1537
2.5 Sec Casts-> 1.996

Heal - 9455
HPS - 4736.97
HPM - 4.487

Heal - 7353
HPS - 6373.407
HPM - 3.9259

Heal - 25220
HPS - 13115.95
HPM - 3.5895

Heal -16861
HPS - 14614.337
HPM - 2.6666

WoG/HP - to account for Avg effect of EG, multiply by 1.3
Heal - 3303

Heal/Person - 1380

Ticks - 13
Heal/Tick - 1059
Total Healing/Person - 13771
HPS/Person - 814.519
HPM/Person - 1.4700

Comparing WoG vs. LoD for beacon healing:
WoG+Base Mastery/HP:3633.3
LoD Beacon Heal/HP when hitting 6 people (mastery ineligible): 4140


HPM Table (Best to worst):

HPS Table (Best to worst):

Use LoD with 3+ targets. When hitting 5+ targets, the beacon will be healed for more than WoG (but does not consider mastery). When accounting for mastery, you need to hit 6 targets to be a good beacon heal.

HR beats pure HL in HPM with 4+ targets. At 5+ targets, HR beats even HL with beacon for HPM.
Well done Lylthe, thank you for the useful information. I'm glad the Blood Elves and Tauren are enjoying the Light. ;)
Hi Lylthe, besides the Theorycrafting, do you have any idea how WorldofLogs rank the player? In order to be ranked, dps or hps has to push themselves over 100% limit, which I'm hovering around 90% at 10.5 hps.

I try to research and compare to see what spells they use, what the difference between me and them, and found that on the same boss, the Holly Pally finish around 5 mins mark, we finish around 6 minutes mark, but they use more HS, more HR, more HL (which I found impossible to use due to spike dmg, and if I had no problem with mana, why bother to use HL? In Maloriak fight I casted HL 7 times, and DL 29 times.)

Since in this thread you also list some healing strategy, so I think it'd be great if you can write a bit about WoL ranking. I found that I've learned a lot but just compare my spell usage with them, but who knows, may be WoL ranking doesn't mean anything, what do you think?
01/07/2011 4:35 PMPosted by Nampal
may be WoL ranking doesn't mean anything, what do you think?
May be it matters more whether a boss dies or not. :D
Nampal... don't. Just stop right there. It's the wrong mentality. It might work for DPS if they want to just sit there and blow their wads, but it's REALLY a bad idea for healers to aim for high WoL rankings. There's a reason even in the spam happy days of WotLK we told people to stop meter e-peening, it's the sign of a BAD group, and often a bad healer (aka a heal sniper). EDIT: This is more aimed at "ZOMFG I topped XXXX HPS!!!" I honestly can't say anything against the WoL meter toppers because they got there with kill pulls, so yeah, whatever they were doing worked. I just wouldn't necessarily call it optimal.

*Sigh, but for the sake of veracity, I'll try to explain it the best I can.

As far I understand it, healing ranks on World of Logs are purely based upon high HPS (which is also wrong since they haven't fixed Illuminated healing yet.)

HPS is a function of not only your healing, but your fellow healers, and damage TAKEN per second. To get high effective HPS, there must be a very high amount of incoming damage.

So what does that mean if you want to top WoL meters? You tell your raid to stand in fire, and you tell your fellow healers to stop healing.

EDIT: Let me clarify. I'm not calling the people on the top of the WoL meters bad. I'm not calling their guilds bad either, especially when there's hard proof they're downing end-game bosses.

I AM saying, topping HPS meters is not indicative of a good healer. It meant there was a lot of damage, and that healer managed to step up. BUT, they may not have had to heal that damage because it shouldn't have come in, they may have had to cover for someone else. There's really no good way to say, "This healer is #1" just by meters.
Lylthe, thanks for a great and helpful reply.

Just for clarity's sake, my post wasn't asking: "How do I top WoL ranking?" rather than "How do I improve my skill by learning from top players?". By your post, they're not necessary a top players (could be true, but could be false also) I top healing in my guild by 10% but that means crap. I sad this in mmo-forum, if we progress by downing the boss and don't let people die, everything else doesn't matter.

So now we're cleared on my mentality :), then WoL purely based on HPS? If that's the case, the gears should be taken into account too, and if we let people stand in fire like you said, then HPS would be high.

However, you're saying WoL ranking does matter to DPS class?
In general, more DPS on the meters implies a better player. It's harder to say this at the far extremes (i.e. topping WoL's) because there are things that can make this unfair.

For example, let's say Argolath of Baradin Hold (about as tanky-spanky as I can think of).

In general, if someone is doing a lot of damage, that's a good sign.

Now let's consider an extreme case, 2 healers, 2 Tank, 1 Rogue, and 5 Unholy Deathknights. The healers are chaining defensive cooldowns on the rogue during the fire phase so the rogue is just eating the fire, and the UH DK's are rotating Unholy Frenzy on the rogue.

That rogue's DPS is going to be through the roof. Is he a good player? (Well maybe, if he managed to convince that many ppl to make him look good.)
I would mostly look at their general balance of spell selection for improving your own play. The BEST way however, would be to talk to them about specific situations and good responses :P

For example, at the start I said, don't use CS to build holy power. Well... that's sort of a white lie. Generally, you don't. But on a fight such as Chimaeran, you probably do since you need on demand raid burst healing.

You can also take a look at the gearing strategies. But don't blindly follow them. Gearing is generally done to support a certain playstyle, and without the theory/supporting playstyle, monkey-see-monkey-do isn't going to work.
01/06/2011 8:51 AMPosted by Rayocell

Nice change to Divine Plea! Now I wonder what's going to happen to the glyph, though. Doubt it'll stay at 5% additional mana...if they change it to 8% I wouldn't mind! :D

Not sure if this was stated already, but they changed the glyph to 6% mana return for a total of 18% mana over 9s.
Well !*@!. It looks like conviction is buggy. It's not working when healing others, but it does seem to work when self-healing. I'd like some additional confirmation on this.

Original report here:
01/08/2011 4:41 PMPosted by Lylthe
Well !*@!. It looks like conviction is buggy. It's not working when healing others, but it does seem to work when self-healing. I'd like some additional confirmation on this.

Original report here:

No logs, but at least over the last week (maybe not today? haven't checked) conviction was affecting all heals and massively. I love to see the big crits 40k-50k with DL so I know it's working in the past.
01/08/2011 4:41 PMPosted by Lylthe
Well !*@!. It looks like conviction is buggy. It's not working when healing others, but it does seem to work when self-healing. I'd like some additional confirmation on this.

Original report here:

Tested just now. Works on self, works on party members, does not work on non-party members.

Scratch that. Behavior is intermittent and could have something to do with spell selection or order. It does not seem to be working reliably at all though.

Testing on a party member my HL hits for 10k regardless of stacks.


According to GM this is a known issue, they are actively working on a solution for it, and there is currently no workaround. They will post on the forums when a fix has been implemented.

No comments as to how long it has been broken (I confess I haven't been watching the numbers too closely), but at least as far as I got an answer it doesn't appear to be a stealth nerf.

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