Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

Paladin
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@Marlyn, are you running your current spec, with 25 yard range judge or a 15 yard range judge spec?
I think my spec is best for pve healing. Check it out.
01/30/2011 7:39 PMPosted by Lylthe
@Marlyn, are you running your current spec, with 25 yard range judge or a 15 yard range judge spec?


25 yard range Judgment at the moment, although I haven't gotten to test it out in a raid. My old spec (the one I had issues with on Magmaw) was a 15 yard range Judgment spec.

Thank you for the suggestions, everyone :) I guess I have a bunch of things to try out to see which one suits me best.
01/27/2011 11:15 PMPosted by Sarianna
I'm battling with spell choice right now. I had been using FoL when holy shock/WoG were not available (and didn't have a quick HL or DL cast). I realized this burned my mana pretty quickly, so I switched to using primarily HL and DL, almost no FoL. My output was cut nearly in half. Even with the struggle to time my mana cooldowns appropriately I still do more healing with FoL.


I find that if i am using FoL i didnt play very well. What i see is HL and DL end up being better because at 50% health DL should start being casted above that if no heavy dmg is inc HL until HS is open. If a tank is at 100% health in cata you should start casting that HL so it hits as the tank gets hit and if it hits to early you add shield anyway.

Preventative healing is seemingly better than the old wotlk model of cast after hit.
Hi Lylthe,

I am very confused about my Haste level. Was there some sort of ninja hotfix that make us require more haste per cast time reduction (or perhaps a Judgements of the Pure nerf that isn't listed in the tooltip)? I ask this because I was used to my Holy Light going to 2 second cast with Judgement if I had 8% Haste. However, I now have 1111 (8.68%) and if I use my Judgement (maxed out talent at 9% haste increase), I'm still at 2.05 second cast Holy Light...
I'm a little bit hesitant to post this with 4.0.6 coming soon, and with changes to some nitty gritty details, but the socket bonus math needs to be done.

I'm going to start with the easy ones.

If the socket(s) is(are) red fill them with intellect. Free lunch.

If the socket bonus is 20 or more intellect per offcolor gem, use the appropriate hybrid. Free lunch. This is pretty rare though, and is likely only going to occur on the helm.
---------------------------------------------
So I'm going to talk about haste, crit and mastery first. If int gives better throughput for any of these stats, then forgoing the socket bonus is the way to go. If int doesn't, then things are more complicated and I'll need to do more work. At the time of this writing, I have no idea which way the math is going to go.

Assumed Baseline Stats
K=1.32871 (May be subject to change with 4.0.6)
HS K=1.67533 (May be subject to change with 4.0.6)
Paper Doll Intellect=4650
Paper Doll Spellpower = 6600

AFAIK BoK/MoW and Arcane Brilliance(and its equivalents) stack multiplicatively. Flasks and food should add another +390 intellect. Please let me know if I'm missing other significant raid buffs.

So actual "raid buffed" stats are:
Int = 5292
SP = 7677

Avg non-crit, non-mastery spells should hit for:
HL: 1.32871*(4400+0.432*SP) = 10253
DL: 1.32871*(11733+1.153*SP) = 27350
FoL: 1.32871*(7328+0.863*SP) = 18539
HS: 1.67533*(2738+0.269*SP) = 8047
WoG/HP: 1.44425*(2133+0.209*SP) = 5398
LoD/HP/Person: 0.797226*(1066+0.220*SP) = 2197
HR/Unmodified Tick: 1.32871*(683+0.0672*SP) = 1593

What is the throughput bonus of +10 int?
At this level of intellect/SP, across the board, +10 int gives about ~0.0623% increase for most spells. FoL gets a 0.0688% increase while LoD gets a 0.0889% increase.

What is the throughput bonus of +10 haste?
10/128.125 = .078% increase on HPS

For throughput bonuses, haste may be worth shooting for. Does NOT take into consideration int's longevity bonus.

This basically means no conclusion. What this shows is that haste is technically better than int for raw throughput. No big surprise there. However, to get that extra throughput, we need to expend more mana, whereas the int throughput is "free". Blah, blah, blah, back to the old HPM/HPS argument that hasn't been resolved because there's no good conversion modeling.

What is the throughput bonus of +10 Mastery?
10/179.2 = 0.0558 extra mastery or 0.0698% shielding.

At first glance this would suggest that mastery sockets would be worth shooting for, but there's a 30% deprecation factor to include, so 10 mastery = 0.0209%. You would want about +30 mastery per +10 int sacrificed for mastery socket bonuses to be worthwhile.

What is the throughput bonus of +10 Crit?
10/179.2 = 0.0558% chance to crit or 0.0279% throughput

You would want about +30 crit per +10 int sacrificed for crit socket bonuses to be worthwhile.

I still have to think some more before I figure out spirit socket bonuses.
Kind of hard to find someone who knows what their talking about.

Lylthe- Can you give a brief mathematical explanation as to why Spirit is better than Haste? I'm not trying to argue that it isn't, just most people I see are posting things essentially saying "Just cuz". I personally don't have enough math experience to compare the value of spirit to the value of haste (Its extremely easy to forget a math class), though I have a whole theorycrafting document around 4 pages long explaining why Haste > Crit > Mastery. If you want I could post it onto here for maybe some additions to the OP, that section is a bit brief IMO. But I'm getting sidetracked, thanks for reading.
Nycgansta, the problem is there has NOT been a good/fair method to compare haste to spirit. They do very different things and I haven't found a definitive way to compare the stats.

I could project the increased throughput of more DL's to replace HL's and check the "throughput" bonus of spirit. I haven't done this yet and it's something I need to do.

I HAVE shown the mana "savings" of downgrading DL to HL with the throughput bonus of haste. Haste does not give a strong showing with this regards.

However, what we have discussed is a heuristic approach for stat analysis. In normal play (excluding standing in fire and other mechanic fail) when a healer fails (ie someone dies) its because of one of the two following reasons

1) The healer went OOM. This leads to reason #2.
2) Insufficient short term HPS. In other words, incoming damage was greater than incoming healing.

Spirit fixes problem #1. Haste fixes problem #2. Int, crit and mastery work mostly on problem #2, but help with problem #1 as well.

The heuristic reasoning is, because problem #1 more common in Cataclysm than problem #2, we should prioritize stats/spell selection that fix problem #1. That means spirit takes higher priority.

That's the short answer. In reality, the two problems are interrelated. Spamming nothing but HL with HP usage means mana is (almost) never a problem, but will (almost) guarantee HPS will be a problem. Spamming nothing but FoL will mean HPS is (almost) never a problem, but will (almost) guarantee mana will be a problem.

Basically, until we find a compelling and CONSISTENT method to say XXXX mana = YYYY healing, the two stats can't really be compared side by side. This basically means I have to cop out by saying:

1) Spirit to comfort.
2) Haste to comfort.

i.e.

1) Stack spirit until you don't OOM. (within reason)
2) Then stack haste until you don't have people dieing to slow casts. (within reason)
You're missing 5% from raid buffs. An extra 5% brings you to 1.937 sec cast time.

I doubt you're going to find "easy mode" healing, but if you want your spells to be faster (and are ok with and understand the tradeoffs you're making) then keep stacking haste.
12/13/2010 1:15 PMPosted by Lylthe
5% Haste - Moonkin Form, Wrath of Air totem, Shadowform


Dark Intent looks like a special snowflake for 3%/6% haste. You should NOT be getting this buff. I believe it stacks, but I don't know that much about warlocks.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85767
02/02/2011 7:16 AMPosted by Lylthe
5% Haste - Moonkin Form, Wrath of Air totem, Shadowform


Dark Intent looks like a special snowflake for 3%/6% haste. You should NOT be getting this buff. I believe it stacks, but I don't know that much about warlocks.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85767


Here is a guide to Dark Intent from mmo-champion. It will most likely always be used on a DPS, not a healer.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/813759-Dark-Intent-The-Guide-(2010-12-24)
I am honestly a bit confused/worried about this particular statement:
"I would shoot for 774 haste. This is reasonable to get, it will bring your HL and DL below 2 seconds..."

I find this concerning because when I go to compare myself with this suggestion, I have found that I have 1384 haste and my HL/DL is a 2.19 second cast. Perhaps I am missing something, but I would really love some feedback on this particular issue.
02/02/2011 5:13 PMPosted by Andora
I find this concerning because when I go to compare myself with this suggestion, I have found that I have 1384 haste and my HL/DL is a 2.19 second cast. Perhaps I am missing something, but I would really love some feedback on this particular issue.
1) Go find yourself a shadow priest, balance druid or shaman.
2) Find something you can attack. A target dummy works well for this.
3) Have your friend shift into their appropriate form or drop a Wrath of Air totem.
4) Use judgement on the attackable target.
5) Check the cast times on your abilities. Should read: 1.914 sec for HL and DL.
Excellent, thank you for the extremely prompt answer!
Confirmed that Glyph of Divinity is returning 20% mana. That pretty much means its the best for mana returns. That would require 4 DP's to tie and if this isn't fixed in 4.0.6, 4 DP's to win.

This is unexpected behavior, so watch for hotfixes.
It seems a lot of people are confused as to why haste is more important than crit. I'm not sure if it was mentioned as I didn't read all 17 pages worth of posts, but the reason Haste is greater than Crit in terms of stats is because Holy Radiance stacks with haste and you want your haste high enough to get an extra tick off Holy Radiance.

For those who are concerned about the haste/crit comparison, checking out the guide at elitistjerks is usually a good idea.

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110847-holy_cataclysm_holy_compendium/

For those who are interested.

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