Cataclysm PvE Holy Paladin Theorycrafting

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How did you calculate the state weighting? I'm finding that it takes +30 crit/mastery to replace +10 int and I'm not happy with my haste/spi calculations yet.
I wrote up a big ol' reply post but I just don't feel like it matters any more. I've apparently got vastly different views on the importance of efficiency and the value of HPS vs HPM and Longevity.

I think I am just going to back out of posting here. I seem to get more negative feedback on my contributions (or attempts to contribute anyway) than positive.

Safe journeys and good fortune. :D
Will be updating the first few posts over the next few days for 4.0.6 changes. I don't believe there are any fundamental changes to our playstyle, but many of the coefficients, spell costs, etc. have changed.

You stated that 774 haste rating will bring HL and DL under 2 secs but it doesn't for me.
I have over 800 and it's still over 2 secs. (2.27secs)
Were you calculating raid buff when you said 774 haste?
So how much haste are u getting with raid buffs?
@Osony, please read: for details on haste, specifically the cast time section.

Bah, still strange and undocumented behavior with 4.0.6.

The glyph of Divinity still returns 20% even with 4.0.6, not the listed 10%. That means its still comparable with the new Divine Plea glyph. You're going to need 4 pleas/fight for it to beat Divinity. I thoroughly expect this to be hotfixed. And by past behavior, I also expect Blizzard to do so w/o posting anything. /sigh

Regarding the K multiplier, I think this is how K works now:
Normal K = (1 + .05 SoI + 1.10 WitL) * 1.06 Divinity * 1.09 Conviction = 1.32871

I honestly have no idea if the self-healing from Divinity multiplies or adds, or where it would go. If I had to GUESS: Self-healing Divinity K = (1+.05+.1)*(1.06+.06)*1.09 but that's purely speculative.

Conviction currently does not update the in-game tooltip, but it IS working. I don't feel like redoing my 50 data samples then back derive the coefficient test again to confirm it multiplies. It used to multiply and I'm going to assume it still does.

Conviction also no longer procs off Holy Radiance ticks.

Here are the updated spell costs and coefficients. Largely unchanged except for the listed changes.

Spell Statistics
Holy Shock
Instant, 6 sec CD
1873 Mana
2740 Avg
SP Coeff: 0.2687
Modified K by Crusade:
HS K = (1 + .05 SoI + 1.10 WitL + 0.3) * 1.06 Divinity * 1.09 Conviction = 1.67533

Holy Light
2.5 Sec
2342 Mana
4400 Avg
SP Coeff: 0.4321

Divine Light
2.5 Sec
7729 Mana
11733 Avg
SP Coeff: 1.15295

Flash of Light
1.5 Sec
7023 Mana
SP Coeff: 0.8629

Light of Dawn Per Holy Power Per Person
640 Avg
SP Coeff: 0.131938

Word of Glory Per Holy Power, Unglyphed
2133 Average
SP Coeff: 0.209
AP Coeff: 0.19799
Word of Glory is a funny spell. It's got an attack power coefficient portion, but my in game testing suggests that it is NOT multiplied by K. Not really significant except to rets and prots.

WoG Heal/HP = (2133 + 0.209*SP)*K + 0.19799*AP
K = (1 + .1 WitL + .05 SoI + .1 WoG Glyph)*1.06 Divinity *1.09 Conviction = 1.44425

Holy Radiance Per Tick Per Person and under 8 yards and 6 or less people
Instant, 30 sec CD
9368 Mana
Base Range: 684
SP Coeff: 0.067008

Haste adds ticks. EJ did all the math for me!

Protector of the Innocent Per Talent Point. PotI's kind of strange. There's a lot of rounding going on, so this may be inaccurate (but should be within 5%)
934 Avg
SP Coeff: 0.018294

How does the nerf to LoD affect it's value against WoG for healing throughput (not including Eternal Glory).
3+ Targets use LoD. Old math already accounted for LoD nerf.

3+ Targets use LoD. Old math already accounted for LoD nerf.


I mean the "no longer transfers through beacon" nerf.
Whoops, missed the Hotfix notes. Eh, then LoD's just an AoE heal. The old 3+ criteria still works.
I suppose something I posted earlier sort of falls under Holy Paladin theorycrafting. Basically, myself and a holy pally in my guild did testing to map out the boundaries of where Light of Dawn can hit. What we found is that Light of Dawn is not a cone at all, but rather a rectangle approximately 10 yards wide or so, extending for approximately 28 yards from the paladin (we could never get a LoD heal to land on a target 30 yards away).

Here's the thread discussing it. In the 2nd or 3rd post there is also a link to someone else's testing done back in December that concluded the same thing.
Thanks for the info Bravehearth. I'll update the LoD info with your research along with some other edits I have planned.
We have been screwing up on the crit value needed to keep Conviction up. Lylthe's theorycraft says we need 18.5% to keep it up, so we have been going with 15% unbuffed, as that would give u 20% with the 5% raid crit buff...
Problem is, we have been forgetting the rest of the raid buffs that raise our crit: 300int from flask, 90int from food, Kings/Paw, Arcane Int.
Someone feel free to do the exact math there. I am gonna guestimate from my own paper dolly with just shy of 15% crit, that gets to just shy of 22% crit in raid. We are actually safe with 12%-13% crit unbuffed, once all raid buffs are actually in the picture.
What this means for me? I can reforge that piece of gear I unforged, back to crit to haste, trying to get my crit a little closer to 15%. I will still have over 14.5% crit, and I wont be worryin @ Conviction fallin off! =)
1.7 second cast time HL/DL, I'm comin for u!
Another note. I took a point out of EG and put it into BL... Wow, just, wow, best thing I ever did for PvE.
Problem is, we have been forgetting the rest of the raid buffs that raise our crit: 300int from flask, 90int from food, Kings/Paw, Arcane Int.
Someone feel free to do the exact math there. I am gonna guestimate from my own paper dolly with just shy of 15% crit, that gets to just shy of 22% crit in raid. We are actually safe with 12%-13% crit unbuffed, once all raid buffs are actually in the picture.

( ( 300 + 90 ) * 1.05 ) / X = ( 100 / 0.17 )
X = ~0.70

( ( 300 + 90 ) * 1.05 ) / X = ( 110.25 / 0.17 )
X = ~0.66

I'm not sure if Lylthe's 0.17% crit from 100 int is before or after kings/mark, so I did both for you. Either way it looks like raid buffs contribute ~0.68% to crit.

Also, Arcane Intellect increases mana pool (and spell power) which only effects regen (Divine Plea and Replenish).
Plus the crit from ur personal int, I logged out in OS gear, so cant check that now, but i think that makes up the remaining crit i was surprised to have.
Regardless, 13% crit unbuffed should be plenty sufficient to keep up Conviction in a raid setting =)
So assuming and using everything that I have learned as a Holy Pali is it correct to assume that the following spec is accurate and viable to raid with?

Currently I have 14.40% Haste which un-buffed brings my cast time of Holy light to a 2.12 second cast which I still would like to see as a flat un-buffed 2 second cast. As well my "Mp5" while outside of combat is 3116 which during combat translates to roughly 2100. My mana pool entirely un-buffed is at 83607, with all these stats I find my heals are extremely efficient without ever having to use FOL. Only using divine light as a filler for an emergency heal, or placing it in my rotation to help heal something other then a tank when Infusion of Light procs (a 30k heal on a .83 second cast is absolutely beautiful).

As long as I constantly use my judgement mixed with the tactical placement of CDs not only do i have enough mana to heal through raid encounters but my heals seem to be doing more than other healers who out gear me. I feel that paladin healers are actually one of the strongest healing classes right now even with the haunting past of increases of mana costs and nerf of our Tower of Radiance talent.

Overall when speccing or gearing my toon I like to use the following guide:

*Find plate gear with spirit and haste already on it.* (Most important values IMO)

-If you have piece of gear that includes green writing with Critical strike or mastery rating reforge the highest stat to either spirit or haste, always reforge mastery first since its probably about as useful as a hunter melee dpsing.

-Spec should benefit you, your mobility and ability to heal in a way thats more beneficial to your raid and yourself. Running up to judge takes as much time as casting a divine light or holy light which may not seem much at first, but every ten seconds when you find your moving to be within range of a tank kiting a boss around a room it really will add up. Not to mention fights that require a certain /range check due to de-buffs or special boss abilities i find the extra range with judging useful.

Lastly, with the spec i linked at the top of the page I am curious if this could likely be the latest and greatest spec to raid with. I am never Divine lighting my Beacon, not to mention never using Flash of Light makes it seem like Tower of Radiance really is a wasted talent. Regardless of how I feel personally about it though, feedback on the subject really would be appreciated.

Above is the armory link to my Paladin so no one gets confused by the rogue posting this, please excuse the PVP gear it is not optimal but for now is the most beneficial for me since I am obviously in the process of still gearing up. It may look confusing and like a hot mess but when it all comes together it meshes well.
So it seams to me that mana regen is needed more then ever. I'm a fairly decent healer but had a bit of trouble at the start of cata. So as a paladin healer you have to slightly change your play style. These are my thoughts:


in that order. Use word of glory at every chance. Get used to building up holy charges. Very effective way to help conserve mana. Use judgements on every cd.
use wings and divine plea together and use them early in case you need it again. Use mana gaining trinkets when you can.

I preffer spirit over haste and crit because.....if you run out of mana....your screwed. I also like the mastery. Leaving a bubble for 20+% of every heal means you don't have to heal as much.

This is just what works for me. Make sure you glyph and spec for your play style.
Hope this was a little helpfull.
Moving some nitty gritty details off front page:

Spell Crits
Paladin heals that crit heal for 150% their normal heal. If you wish to average in the effect of crit, take your total crit %, divide in it half, and that's how much extra healing you will
do. If you have 18% crit, then on average, you will heal for 9% more.

Each spell crit will give you a stack of Conviction or refresh it if Conviction is already at the maximum of 3. You want roughly 20% total crit to keep it from falling off.

Mana Regen
Spirit Regen = 0.001 + Spirit * sqrt(Int) * BASE_REGEN * 5
BASE_REGEN @ 85 = 0.003345

In Combat Regeneration (in mp5)= 5% Base Mana + Spirit Regen*0.5 + Raw MP5
The 0.5 is from Meditation
The only raw MP5 source I’m aware of is Blessing of Might and its equivalent abilities, which provides 326 mp5. Base Mana @ 85 is 23422. If you want to see this number, get naked, mouse over intellect to see how much your int is adding and subtract that from your current mana pool.

Closed Form Solution
ICR (in mp5) @ lvl 85 with Might = 1171+396+0.0005+.0083625*Spirit*sqrt(Int)
ICR = In Combat Regeneration

To determine the relative value of adding 1 additional mp5, take the partial derivatives:
dICR/dSpi = 0.0083625*Sqrt(int)
dICR/dInt = 0.00418125*Spirit/Sqrt(int)

With my current stats
1 spirit ~= 0.587 mp5
1 int ~= 0.122 mp5

Cast Time
Cast Time = (Base Cast Time - Direct Cast Time reduction) / [ Haste Source 1 * Haste Source 2
* ... * Haste Source N * Haste Rating ]

First, 100% haste does NOT mean everything is instant cast. It means you cast 100% more spells, or your cast time is cut in half. That's why we divide. Direct Cast Time reductions are any sources that reduce the cast time of a spell in seconds, not %. The only sources that apply to this that I can think of off the top of my head are Clarity of Purpose and 4PT10. Because this applies first, I say Divine Light and Holy Light have a 2.5 sec cast instead of 3 sec - 0.5 sec due to Clarity of Purpose for brevity.

Haste sources stack multiplicatively. If you have 5% haste from raid buffs, use 1.05 in the
formula. There are 3 sources of haste that matter to us. 5% from raid buffs (shaman, balance
druid, shadow priest, destro warlock), 3% from Speed of Light and 9% from judgements of the
pure. At level 85, 128.125 haste rating means 1% haste.

So as an example, at 3491 Haste Rating, for Divine Light, the cast time is:
(3 - 0.5 (Clarity of Purpose)) / [1.05 (Raid Buff) * 1.09 (Judgements of the Pure) * 1.03
(Speed of Light) * (1 + 3491 /12812.5(Haste Rating) ] = 1.667 seconds

The Global Cooldown is the time you must wait between using abilities. This puts a minimum
"cast time" on all spells, even instants. It's base time is 1.5 seconds and can be reduced to
a minimum of 1.0 seconds for spells with haste, this won't work for melee abilities like
crusader strike. To bring the GCD to 1.0 seconds, you need 3491 Haste Rating, which we won’t
be seeing for a LONG time.

Spell Power
As of now Blizzard tooltips are accurate. To the best of my knowledge, healing works as

Final Heal = K * ( Base Power + SP Coefficient * Spell Power)

K is total of all % base increases. The only weird part for the coefficients is that some
stack additively and others multiply. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to which
multiply and which add. So what the @#$% is K?

As best as I can tell:
Normal K = 1.06 (Divinity) * (1 + 0.05 Seal of Insight + 0.15 Walk in Light) * 1.09

(Conviction if present)

The Glyph of WoG adds, so:
K WoG Glyphed = (1 + 0.05 Seal of Insight + 0.15 Walk in Light + 0.1 WoG Glyph) * 1.06

(Divinity) * 1.09 (Conviction if present)

Crusade adds as well:
K Holy Shock =(1 + 0.05 Seal of Insight + 0.15 Walk in Light + 0.3 Crusade) * 1.06 (Divinity)

* 1.09 (Conviction if present)

I don't know if Avenging Wrath and the self healing from divinity add or multiply.

Base Power is the random range that a heal may have. This is the primary source of variation in your heals. It's why you sometimes see a 10k non-crit heal vs. a 10.6k non-crit heal.

SP Coefficient is the spell power coefficient of a spell. The idea behind it was so a 1.0 sec
cast heal doesn't catch up to a 2.5 sec cast heal as your gear increases, because the 2.5 sec
cast will have a high SP Coefficient. The actual number is fixed by Blizzard and doesn't
directly correlate to cast times, but that was the idea anyways. Note that the SP Coefficient
is CONSTANT relative to haste.

Spell Power is the number from your paper doll in game.

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