How did the High elves survived?

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10/20/2014 10:26 PMPosted by Cælia
Honestly, I haven't read Blood of the Highborne.

The issue seems to be that whether or not Lor'themar personally approved, some people still feel that he's responsible because he was supposed to be in charge at the time. Of course the Magisters could have easily claimed "Kael'thas said it's cool, bro" and gotten away with it. They never shed too much light on the extent of such treatment, because they're forever stuck in BC land, it seems. >:(


It's mentioned in BotH that Lor'themar "didn't condone" some of Rommath's methods, but couldn't do anything about them because Rommath spoke with Kael's full approval.

Given Lor'themar himself dealt with dissension with exile instead of magical mind control, it's probably safe to say this was one of said methods.

Though good luck having this conversation with Mother Teresa the death knight.
I noticed that a lot of people mentioning the fel corruption of the blood elves in so far as the green eyes. Aside from the fact that they did use fel crystals to maintain the cohesion of the city, you need to remember than when Arthas resurrected Kel'thezud that completely altered and corrupted the Sunwell. All those in proximity to it would have been affected by it's taint, that was why Kael'thas chose to destroy it.
10/21/2014 12:21 AMPosted by Carmageddon
Why do people write as if consuming magic from animals is a terrible thing, but consuming their flesh and blood isn't?

Unless you are a strict vegan, there is nothing at all wrong with what the Blood Elves did. And if you are a strict vegan, you should have a problem with all the races, since they all eat meat.


I have actually had that exact thought several times when viewing this general topic.

Helves wont tolerate the blood elves eating meat magic but are fine with humans and dwarves eating regular meat?
10/21/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Erhedel
Again it's a very slippery slope; what if you're in a pinch and you don't have a mana wrym? What then? Do you siphon off a person, or a demon against their will and treat them like mana batteries?

Only Kael's BElves in Outland (15%) drained from anything other than small vermin. The ones in Silvermoon have a strong moral objection to draining from more than small vermin, not to mention a demon or another person.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070104192719/http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/encyclopedia/338.xml
    Even so, the prince's relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael'thas' agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons. Yet, as their hunger grows, blood elves--particularly those in Outland--are becoming increasingly inured to the things they must do in order to obtain more magic.
The High Elves learned that the Blood Elves were literally sucking magic out of people and objects. They were disgusted and refused to take part in it. Many succumbed to their now fel-fueled Sunwell, thus they had green eyes. Even the structures in Quel'Thalas went from blue to red because of the fel magic. High Elves refused to succumb to fel magic or suck magic out of living beings, so they were exiled out of the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas. If I can remember, it was mentioned that Vereseea took a large number of High Elves to the old Dalaran site and helped the Kirin Tor rebuild the city.

The Silver Covenant was formed due to the large population of High Elves within Dalaran, and the faction is kinda an army for the Kirin Tor. The High Elves went along with the Kirin Tor Mages who attacked the Isle of Thunder.

There are still plenty of High Elves in Stormwind, were in Theramore, and just all around in Alliance bases as most of the living High Elves stuck with the Alliance after exile.
10/22/2014 03:51 AMPosted by Thandorel
The Silver Covenant was formed due to the large population of High Elves within Dalaran, and the faction is kinda an army for the Kirin Tor.
The Silver Covenant was formed for the sole purpose of hatred and bigotry.

Dalaran begged Silvermoon for help when it was about to be blown out of the sky by Malygos. Due to Garithos, the BEs had not returned to Dalaran when it was rebuilt, and Dalaran was losing the Nexus War without their support.

Aethas Sunreaver returned to Dalaran with other BE idealists and saved the city. The High Elves in the city were enraged that BEs had been ALLOWED to save them from death and formed the Silver Covenant to do everything possibly to screw the BEs and oppose them in all things. Eventually the Silver Covenant got the excuse they had been waiting for and boy did they go nuts slaughtering those BE civilians.

http://wowpedia.org/Silver_Covenant
10/20/2014 07:41 PMPosted by Cælia
That being said, I do not approve of brainwashing. However, my guess would be that the protesters were either being violent, significantly disruptive, or inciting rebellion if they were banished/brainwashed. How else are you supposed to deal with or punish people in this scenario?


WoW mind control isn't brainwashing as it has only ever been shown to have a permanent effect when used by beings of immense power, like the old gods or the Lich King. And even then, permanent really should be in quotations.

As for the riot inciting protestors in Silvermoon. They were mind controlled by a simple priest and it's very likely that their reaction, much like when Sully was mind controlled by Anduin Wrynn, was snapping out of it once they'd obeyed the command and being angry and a little embarrassed. Which is a sight better than being arrested or beaten by the mob of Blood Elves who were heckling them for their naivety.

10/21/2014 10:54 PMPosted by Juibloc
Helves wont tolerate the blood elves eating meat magic but are fine with humans and dwarves eating regular meat?


Yeah, it's confusing but not unsalvageable. In my headcanon I like to imagine that the High Elf schism was a political move by Kael'thas' remaining rivals in order to gain control of Silvermoon while he was out of the picture. It was only superficially about the consumption of mana from living creatures, but because a significant portion of the populace found adjusting to the new state of life to be repugnant or gross, it became a focal point of the opposition.

An organized opposition whose maneuvering made it difficult for the politically naive Lorthemar Theron to accomplish what he needed to. So they were banished when it became a choice between risking civil war or sending that portion of the population away.
10/20/2014 03:04 PMPosted by Mystaerica
Is that why he brainwashes and mind controls dissidents?


Making deliberately ignorant claims as always... why doesn´t this surprise me coming from you?

For starters:

1. Even if he´s acting as Regent Lord, apart from some administrative and political liberties he still had to obey Kael´s input. You read Blood of the Highborne (or so you said... honestly lately I´m doubting you were honest about it); you as well as I know Kael by means of his representatives (in this case Rommath) had absolute power and autorithy to make the final decission on all issues involving the kingdom (remember when Rommath said to Liadrin he couldn´t "deal" with Galell because he "must leave shortly to deliver a report to His Highness in Outland on the status of their negotiations -the ones with the Horde btw-"?).

Considering how pragmatic and ruthless Rommath (and apparently Kael´thas) could be, Lor´themar´s decission of expeling those dissidents from the kingdom could have perfectly saved their sorry @sses. Heck even the mind control and brainwashing to accept the alliance with the Horde -which btw at the end only made people acept said alliance and move on with their lives, nothing else- seem minor in comparison with the death penalty Galell got by merely killing a "lowlife" and making the belves´government "seem weak and out of control".

They could have been given the death penalty had Kael desired it. and you know what? It would have been perfectly legal... morally wrong yes, but legal.

Besides my claim clearly mentioned Lor´themar´s personality. In the cannon sources, it is quite clear he´s portrayed (thank god with some measure of consistence) as a kind if strict man (heck even Liadrin says he´s hopelessly optimistic). Do you honestly think a despotic tyrannt would have cared for the rangers of Quel´lithien? Or the lives of his subjects post Sunwell? or the destiny of their bodies in SoO?

Stop trying to follow Seebach´s example and project your personal life on a game character. He´s no "evilest tyrannt ever" no matter how much you want to pretend he is.
Double post but whatever...

WoW mind control isn't brainwashing as it has only ever been shown to have a permanent effect when used by beings of immense power, like the old gods or the Lich King. And even then, permanent really should be in quotations.

As for the riot inciting protestors in Silvermoon. They were mind controlled by a simple priest and it's very likely that their reaction, much like when Sully was mind controlled by Anduin Wrynn, was snapping out of it once they'd obeyed the command and being angry and a little embarrassed. Which is a sight better than being arrested or beaten by the mob of Blood Elves who were heckling them for their naivety.


Or getting Galell´s treatment (coughcoughcovertlyassasinatedcough). As I mentioned before it would have been a nasty and morally wrong move, but Kael by that point had all the credibility of the majority of the people and the legal power to make them seem as dangerous traitors of Dar´khan´s caliber, and getting them killed.

I sustain my headcannon: Lor´themar saved them by means of negotiating their expulsion of the kingdom (outside they at least had a chance to survive by their own and live by their own moral codes. Inside their safety couldn´t be guaranteed).

10/22/2014 04:17 AMPosted by Dorcy
Yeah, it's confusing but not unsalvageable. In my headcanon I like to imagine that the High Elf schism was a political move by Kael'thas' remaining rivals in order to gain control of Silvermoon while he was out of the picture. It was only superficially about the consumption of mana from living creatures, but because a significant portion of the populace found adjusting to the new state of life to be repugnant or gross, it became a focal point of the opposition.

An organized opposition whose maneuvering made it difficult for the politically naive Lorthemar Theron to accomplish what he needed to. So they were banished when it became a choice between risking civil war or sending that portion of the population away.


I approve of you headcannon, is quite interesting tbh.
10/22/2014 03:51 AMPosted by Thandorel
The High Elves learned that the Blood Elves were literally sucking magic out of people and objects. They were disgusted and refused to take part in it. Many succumbed to their now fel-fueled Sunwell, thus they had green eyes. Even the structures in Quel'Thalas went from blue to red because of the fel magic. High Elves refused to succumb to fel magic or suck magic out of living beings, so they were exiled out of the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas. If I can remember, it was mentioned that Vereseea took a large number of High Elves to the old Dalaran site and helped the Kirin Tor rebuild the city.


You should have read the post above yours. The high elves learned no such thing because the blood elves weren't doing it. In fact, the only people "literally sucking magic out of. . . objects" were the high elves, the ones who were exiled and the remaining ones from the Alliance Expedition to Outland under Alleria; both groups drained a limited supply of artifacts and stored magic to try and stave off the hunger. And the structures in Quel'thalas went from blue to red because Silvermoon was mostly destroyed and then rebuilt by Rommath and his magisters. Had nothing to do with fel magic (which doesn't change paint schemes) and everything to do with the embrace of their new name of " blood elves" and a thematic palette swap in their architecture. You aren't going to try and argue that use of the color red is a sure sign of evil or the demonic, are you?

[quote[There are still plenty of High Elves in Stormwind, were in Theramore, and just all around in Alliance bases as most of the living High Elves stuck with the Alliance after exile.[/quote]

Kindly don't use the RPG as a source. Significant high elf populations outside Dalaran and some scattered lodges is, at this point, a matter of fanon and not canon.
10/22/2014 03:51 AMPosted by Thandorel
The High Elves learned that the Blood Elves were literally sucking magic out of people and objects. They were disgusted and refused to take part in it. Many succumbed to their now fel-fueled Sunwell, thus they had green eyes.

Silvermoon was indeed rebuilt with fel magic, but only a small elite knew about its use and put it into the Burning Crystals. The general population didn't know they were sucking fel magic out of the ubiquitous crystals (which had been in Silvermoon and green since its founding).

https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/status/433059417437650944
    Did BotH imply that BE knew Illidan's teaching and his association with Kael, but didn't know the "green crystals" were fel?
    Blood elves didn't know what they were absorbing. This'll be covered more in my Kael story.


10/22/2014 03:51 AMPosted by Thandorel
Even the structures in Quel'Thalas went from blue to red because of the fel magic.

10/22/2014 10:34 AMPosted by Scryll
And the structures in Quel'thalas went from blue to red because Silvermoon was mostly destroyed and then rebuilt by Rommath and his magisters.

Quel'Thalas was retconned to be red as seen as the founding of Silvermoon in the manga. Also, the ruins from the Scourge invasion are red.
10/22/2014 10:34 AMPosted by Scryll
Kindly don't use the RPG as a source. Significant high elf populations outside Dalaran and some scattered lodges is, at this point, a matter of fanon and not canon.


OMG Scryll so, my covertly-not-so-sane dream of having the remaining stubborn Helves (A.K.A. Silver Covenant + Hinterland whats-their-faces ones) as puny little inconveniences with 0 importance on the story from now onwards may become true? Yes?
10/22/2014 11:26 AMPosted by Alexielangel
as puny little inconveniences with 0 importance on the story from now onwards may become true?

This is the part where go into the Violet hold, find a Sunreaver civilian, and:

/kick
/point
/laugh
/spit
10/22/2014 12:21 PMPosted by Mystaerica
This is the part where go into the Violet hold, find a Sunreaver civilian, and:

/kick
/point
/laugh
/spit
Is Jaina still running her huge Gulag/Concentration Camp for civilians, women, and children?
10/22/2014 12:21 PMPosted by Mystaerica
This is the part where go into the Violet hold, find a Sunreaver civilian, and:

/kick
/point
/laugh
/spit


Meh you may do so, that will teach the idiots the hard lesson about "rebounds".

Serves them right. That will teach them what happens when people trust again other people that have betrayed them once... what happens when people forgets their own dignity and go back like lapdogs to the side of other people that only looked at them as tools to dispose.

10/22/2014 04:35 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Is Jaina still running her huge Gulag/Concentration Camp for civilians, women, and children?


Doubt so, Kalecgos may leave her otherwise... and apparently her mary sue powers don´t cover emotional fragility towards hubbys
10/22/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Lucifael

Serves them right. That will teach them what happens when people trust again other people that have betrayed them once... what happens when people forgets their own dignity and go back like lapdogs to the side of other people that only looked at them as tools to dispose.

[/quote]

I'd imagine it is pretty mutual in human-elf relations. Remember, the elves first serious interaction with humans was using them as a stick to beat back the trolls. When the second war rolled around, the elves at large were content to let the demon-crazed horde wipe out humanity- until the war showed up on their doorstep.

Then they did the same with the Scourge. Human problem- until it about wiped out their entire population.

So, yeah, the elves weren't exactly an abused giving tree.

The moral of the story is, side with dwarves and avoid these problems.

Heck, if things had played out differently and we had Orc warriors backed by Dwarf fire power and construction know how, and Gnomish tech? We'd be playing World of Peacecraft.
10/22/2014 05:27 PMPosted by Caedmun
I'd imagine it is pretty mutual in human-elf relations. Remember, the elves first serious interaction with humans was using them as a stick to beat back the trolls. When the second war rolled around, the elves at large were content to let the demon-crazed horde wipe out humanity- until the war showed up on their doorstep.

Then they did the same with the Scourge. Human problem- until it about wiped out their entire population.

So, yeah, the elves weren't exactly an abused giving tree.


Exactly

So the High Elves Mother Teresa the death knight like so much to pretend were as beings pure as snow and the human mages of the council are no better than the belves. Both sides of the coin were guilty of the same thing: using other to propel their own agendas. And got their own butts kicked on their own time thanks to said allies... Real politiks I suppose

However, the Sunreavers had a special mention on idiocy for ignoring the almost death penalty given by the same people short of 10 years before WotLK. Rommath was right at the end. Aethas better look for a nice shelted cause when the Grand Magister will learn of his little stunt, he may know how´s like to be a fried chicken.

10/22/2014 05:27 PMPosted by Caedmun
The moral of the story is, side with dwarves and avoid these problems.


Dwarves were as useful as dirt too... the moral of the story is ally with the one race that will give more benefits to you... and be aware of the eventual treachery.

10/22/2014 05:27 PMPosted by Caedmun
Heck, if things had played out differently and we had Orc warriors backed by Dwarf fire power and construction know how, and Gnomish tech? We'd be playing World of Peacecraft.


Uhh you don´t mix stupid people with anger issues with irresponsible absent minded drunks and technnology nerds with a propension to ignore safety measures and expect things to go right...
10/22/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Lucifael

Uhh you don´t mix stupid people with anger issues with irresponsible absent minded drunks and technnology nerds with a propension to ignore safety measures and expect things to go right...


I didn't even think of that.

Now it is elevated from "really good idea" to "THIS CAN ONLY END WITH PURE AWESOME!"

EDIT: You also forgot to add "with a penchant for firearms" to the dwarf bit.
10/21/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Erhedel
Again it's a very slippery slope; what if you're in a pinch and you don't have a mana wrym? What then? Do you siphon off a person, or a demon against their will and treat them like mana batteries?


How is that any different from plain old eating them? Isn't that the same kind of slippery slope? What if you're in a pinch and you don't have any food?
10/22/2014 11:48 PMPosted by Carmageddon
10/21/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Erhedel
Again it's a very slippery slope; what if you're in a pinch and you don't have a mana wrym? What then? Do you siphon off a person, or a demon against their will and treat them like mana batteries?


How is that any different from plain old eating them? Isn't that the same kind of slippery slope? What if you're in a pinch and you don't have any food?


isn't the slippery slope a Logical Fallacy?

I mean it is a Logical Fallacy... Slippery Slope (also, the Domino Theory): The common fallacy that "one thing inevitably leads to another." E.g., "If you two go and drink coffee together, one thing will lead to another, and soon enough you'll be pregnant and end up spending your life on welfare living in the projects," or "If we close Gitmo, pretty soon armed terrorists will be on our doorstep!" as per http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm

your general idea that eating magic animals will lead to some kind of magic vampirism is like saying eating a cheeseburger will lead to cannibalism.

even if that was the truth, the blood elves were never in that position because they could always summon a demon to feed on like the Highbourne did in Diremaul. the blood elves never had to cannibalize their society, just use a new source of food.... which was abundant.

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