Tweaks/Suggestions/Feedback on new models #4!

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The new female draenei models are growing on me a bit more now, but I still really dislike how distorted and wide the mouth gets when it opens.

I could probably live with the bigger eyes if they had their proper glow like the npcs have, but the oversized noses on some faces, excessive mouth deformations during emotes\attacks, the high ponytail being sad and droopy, and the fact that some of the hairstyle\horn combinations leave actual holes in the side of the head if you look at it from the right angle all need to be fixed imo. Also as Tzaraan mentioned female draenei really need more prominent fangs like the old model had.

As far as female draenei posture, run+overall animations(minus some facial expressions), hairstyles(minus high tail) and hair+skin textures go, I think all of these were greatly improved and I really LOVE them post-update, but this is of course just my opinion. Several hairstyles that I wouldn't touch on my draenei characters before are now much more appealing\realistic so that's a definite plus for me.

In the case of the animations(again, minus the facial expressions which get a little too whacky sometimes, specifically the mouth) I really feel like the new animations for draenei are really true to the old ones. I'd say 95% of the new animations for female draenei hit dead on the mark as far as the "same, but better\HD" part goes.

Still hoping we get a blue reply eventually(that isn't complete fluff\misdirection), but I can kind of understand why Bash and the CMs are avoiding the thread for now because this topic in general is pretty volatile and as soon as a blue tag shows up next to a new model feedback thread everyone is going to pile in and start picking apart every word\sentence they post.

Still, it's been pretty much dead silence from blizzard in regard to people's concerns over the new models except for a single post that didn't really do much to reassure anyone of anything. Hopefully they'll throw us a bone eventually. :|
10/18/2014 06:43 PMPosted by Dela
I see some people hoping for a blue response, we have gotten one in a completely separate thread maybe you should add it to the OP Makki

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14881968093?page=3#53

This is probably all we are going to get and their reasoning actually annoys me even more lol


Ok, this is the part that gets me, blue quote...

there's always been some amount of interpretation that's going to happen from person to person as they fill in the quality-gaps, and add their own story and character to any of the looks.


Ok, and here is the issue.

WHY is anyone doing this... This was not their character to be adding their own "story and character" to. These are long established characters with a lore of their own. Was the person adding "their own story and character" to each model a long time player of that particular race/gender? If not then what, exactly, qualifies them to make such sweeping changes to "story and character"?

That really irks me. There is NO room for "artistic license" in a revamp like this, the statement blizz gave was to keep the look and feel of the originals, then basically... someone came in and decided to re-write everything. Want to be artistic and add story and character, create something new!

As an aside, the new loading screens are also awful. Perhaps the entire art team needs scrapped.

Why does it feel like absolutely everything was given 50% effort at best? Perhaps it's because of the sudden influx of new people from their failed project, we ended up with a bunch of people who had no real history with wow and so don't appreciate the nuances of the game/story/characters. Who knows.
I was going to say something in response to the blue "No, really. This is artistic license" cop-out, but I found that I got actually a bit too annoyed. I don't want to post in anger, so I will just respond with this:

"Artistic license" shouldn't be used as a euphemism for "sloppy work". Artistic license is deviating from the original artwork to improve it, giving it character and life it didn't have before. The models we're complaining about are lifeless and flat with a facial structure that is not so much stylized as it is the product of rushed, poor modeling. Artistic license is for the pursuit of an artist's unique vision, not an excuse for lazy textures and unpolished meshes rife with mapping and animation errors.

Whew. Okay. I managed to get that out without blowing a gasket. Anyway. Let me put an excerpt here from a post ages ago on the beta forums to talk specifically about female human hair:

While I do like the human female hairstyles as a whole, I wanted to make a few comments.

    Deeper black. The current black comes off as a dark brown. While I'd love a dark brown option, I really miss not having a colour that's easily identifiable as black.


    More volume. Many of these styles would look a lot better if they were 'fluffed up' a bit. As it is, some look really thin and stringy.


    Short and Simple styles look too similar. Simple has lost its thick, edgy fullness so it has become a near clone of Short (the latter being a faithful adaption of the original style), with the exception of awkward hair at the scalp/fringe.
    http://i.imgur.com/1eQNw1S.jpg


    Raquel is a mess. It needs less volume on the crown and more volume at the bottom. It's great to have a long hair style, but this looks plastic.
    http://i.imgur.com/wCLXqj2.jpg


    Full strays too far from the original. Full doesn't look 'full' at all. It looks lank and limp, as if it's wet hair. The original one had a meticulous elegance. It desperately needs volume as well as fewer messy strands. I actually didn't recognise this one. I only identified it at the barber shop.
    http://i.imgur.com/uTeFhnB.jpg


    Curled is too flat. The original style is very full with the suggestion of being curly. The only thing I disliked was the back with the three unnatural curls, but the front looks great. The style on the beta (though I can see they've tweaked it a bit) is still far too flat. It's missing all the delightful volume that really gave this style a very unique look. As for the back, -please- fill that in. The idea of the three curls there is cute, but all that empty space (http://i.imgur.com/hM3fm2I.jpg) just looks silly.
    http://i.imgur.com/TWcZzf9.jpg


    It's not a bun now, it's a nipple. I really, really hate the way the bun hair looks now. On live, it has a messy elegance -- a simple, full style pulled into a flattering bun with two wisps of hair softening either side of her face. The design of the older hair -- with as few polys as it has -- is simply better than the beta's nipple hair. (And if you wonder why I call it that, look at the hair from the side. >.> )
    http://i.imgur.com/BnGEdj3.jpg
10/19/2014 02:39 AMPosted by Nikeisha
WHY is anyone doing this... This was not their character to be adding their own "story and character" to. These are long established characters with a lore of their own. Was the person adding "their own story and character" to each model a long time player of that particular race/gender? If not then what, exactly, qualifies them to make such sweeping changes to "story and character"?


Well of course we're adding our own story and character to our own player character! Otherwise Snuzz here would just be generic tauren druid #12587302.

That said, what they've done is NOT artistic license.

Google fanart for your favorite celebrity. That is artistic license. They all manage to keep the same features, regardless of skill or style.

Suddenly sprouting eyebrows ten inches above where they should be, changing skin tones, changing lip and eye color, changing noses... those are not artistic license. Those are sloppy work at BEST.
10/17/2014 12:30 PMPosted by Makki
-Wait....where's my skeleton face gone?!! I can't be Queen Skeletor anymore!? ((ex: http://imgur.com/V6JYg9J ))


I believe you have the wrong pic posted here.
Human Male - WHITE HAIR. Pre-patch, I had white hair and a white van dyke beard. Post patch, I have greyish white hair, and a greyish white pineapple beard. If I change it to the van dyke style I had before, the beard is only available in dark grey.
https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/522137984347291648

10/19/2014 05:47 AMPosted by Slade
Human Male - WHITE HAIR. Pre-patch, I had white hair and a white van dyke beard. Post patch, I have greyish white hair, and a greyish white pineapple beard. If I change it to the van dyke style I had before, the beard is only available in dark grey.


I think this is in response to yours and any concerns regarding colours and how they transitioned over. Skin, hair, eyes, all of it, if its different now it's because their archives were limited or something.
https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/523234260832886785

Apologies if this was already posted, but in a way your threads have been acknowledged Makki. Good to see.
I uploaded old/new comparison screenies to descrbe exactly what I see when I switch to the new models.
On the left side is the new model, on the right side is the old model. You can click through the album.

http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/sharandris/media/World%20of%20Warcraft/TaurenFem_zps227ac272.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

First up, my own model for Olumusa.
The eyes are too human like. They lack the roundness you can see in the old model.
I'm not sure what's going on with that smirk, either.
The facial features on the left are more camel/dog like and very "male" looking.

I would suggest keeping the old model, adding more pixels and just smoothing out the sharp corners with the horns and the hair.

Next up: My Orc, known as Vok.
I like what's been done here, as well as with the female Orcs (see Ulsa@Ysera). I've got zero complaint, except the run animations.

My warrior, a human male, is next.
On the left side, the new model shows a much more lean and angular face, the head is borderline conical, and the eyes don't seem to be spaced properly. I prefer the one on the right,

Gnome Female.
On the right, the eyes are too big, and the mouth is turned down. When I went to the barber shop, I had a devil of time working to find a reasonable combination, and it didn't come out to bad. The one on the left looks softer, less "!@#$%y" if you will.

Draenei Male:
On the left, I like the changes here, I enjoy the smoothness. What really put me off was the way he looked while working on him in the barber shop. That ridiculous smirk has got to go.

Draenei Female
I had to really play around with this one, I prefer the image on the right. The lines look better to me and her face is rounder, more appealing to the eye. What gets me is her armory picture and how drastic it looks compared to this side by side:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/Rheava/simple

By and large the running animations just don't work or look right for the species.
My Tauren looks like she's scooping dirt with her hands as she runs.
My warrior looks like he's on his tippy toes.
The Orc run makes him look like he really needs to head for the bathroom.
The Dreanei hooves hit the ground in a staccato step.
The Gnomes run with arms and legs splayed out.

I would suggest returning the run animations to their former patterns.

The last thing I would like to suggest is to allow us to select which characters we prefer the new models on instead of a on click "changes all" setting in the interface. I'd like to keep my Tauren as the old model, and the Orcs as the new.
https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/522137984347291648

I think this is in response to yours and any concerns regarding colours and how they transitioned over. Skin, hair, eyes, all of it, if its different now it's because their archives were limited or something.


That is no excuse. The updates should have been based on what we could see in the game, not some unknown original design that they couldn't implement in classic WoW. If they want new colours, add them as well as the ones we're used to.
10/19/2014 06:34 AMPosted by Sevrael
https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/522137984347291648

I think this is in response to yours and any concerns regarding colours and how they transitioned over. Skin, hair, eyes, all of it, if its different now it's because their archives were limited or something.


That is no excuse. The updates should have been based on what we could see in the game, not some unknown original design that they couldn't implement in classic WoW. If they want new colours, add them as well as the ones we're used to.


I would have just loaded images into the software they use for 3D Modelling and then select the good ol' eyedropped tool...unless those softwares don't have that tool. I love it.

Addons like Mog It let you zoom so far into models you could easily see things like eye colours too ;)
Night-Elf Male Neck Problem

Hello again, I'm back to help posting screenshots comparing the neck/walking issues of the Night Elf Male model.

Here they are:

Neck Problem when standing

http://i.imgur.com/Wys4y43.jpg

This example shows precisely how the head is inclined too forward on the new n-elf model. The old one looks definitely more confident, and not as if my character needs to see the chiropractor... :(

Neck Problem apparently gone when walking

http://i.imgur.com/iI3cHyj.jpg

This second example illustrates the walking, that looks really good on the new model, in my opinion. Compare with the last example, and see how the neck / head looks off when the character is standing/idle, and it gets back to a good posture when he is walking.

I believe that adjustments like these are not a huge thing, on the contrary, simple steps that can make the models look REALLY good indeed.

About the running of night-elf male... yes... everyone must agree, it has to be changed. It is just awful. Pictures are not even necessary...
If it hasn't been mentioned...just found another one, on the draenei female.

This doesn't happen with all mounts, certainly, but if you mount, say, a griffin, and run on the ground, she has a rather uncomfortable-looking rocking motion. Probably has to do with what segment of the running griffin animation they "attached" the draenei to. Remember the old Lich King problem with people wobbling wildly back and forth whenever the drake wiggled its neck? This is the same thing, just on a sagittal plane.
10/19/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Sileas
If it hasn't been mentioned...just found another one, on the draenei female.

This doesn't happen with all mounts, certainly, but if you mount, say, a griffin, and run on the ground, she has a rather uncomfortable-looking rocking motion. Probably has to do with what segment of the running griffin animation they "attached" the draenei to. Remember the old Lich King problem with people wobbling wildly back and forth whenever the drake wiggled its neck? This is the same thing, just on a sagittal plane.


Oh, right.

Speaking of mounts, my gnome sinks into the argent charger's (or whichever the non pally version is) saddle. Her legs are partially consumed by the thing. Oddly enough, the other horses seem to work fine.
Want to add my support, I really hate my human females now, especially the lips and eyes.
10/19/2014 08:22 AMPosted by Ilüvatar
http://i.imgur.com/Wys4y43.jpg


This also looks like another weird case of them tilting the head upwards, like the female night elves.
I just logged in and checked the changes to my various toons. I love the new male dwarf and male tauren changes. But the Human female's face isn't right. All my human female toons look the same now. They all have bugged out eyes and overly contrasty lips that appear to have come straight from Woody or Jessie from Toy Story. Some might think that's important for expression, but I'd argue that it hurts the fantasy aspect of gameplay.

The change takes suspension of disbelief from pretty much effortless to nearly impossible. Yes, the faces were cartoonish before, but in a grown-up sort of way. Now these faces have become cartoonish in a My Pretty Pony way. What used to look human and adult now looks like a kid's toy. Before, it was easy to feel like I was someone in Azeroth. Now it just feels like being in the real world, playing with plastic dolls.

Or, look at it another way... Remember "The Craft of War: Blind" video by Percula? Imagine that having been edited such that Lady Katrina Prestor had the current human female face? The emotional impact of that scene would be utterly destroyed. Instead of having a Noble Lady of Lordaeron in the keep, we have a CG cheerleader. And there would be no credibility to Onyxia's little revlation, either. No matter how cool you make a set of dragon wings, attaching them to a barbie doll will never work.

A less detailed and less expressive face may be more generic, but it has many more RP type possibilities than a very detailed and expressive (but very specifically Toy Story) face. Jessie from Toy Story can be incredibly expressive with her face, but (in my book) can never play parts such as wife, mother, grandmother, mistress, duchess, queen, or empress. Likewise, can you honestly see the current human female faces matching any of these roles? It's not that the new change has no beauty, it's just that it has become an extremely narrow kind of beauty.

It might be good to think of expressiveness as being similar to salt in cooking; it definitely needs to be there, but at some point there really is such a thing as too much. I would like to see human eyes instead of doll eyes with super high eyebrows. And maybe stop after only one or two facelifts.

Please revisit this.
10/18/2014 10:30 PMPosted by Mambypamby
10/18/2014 09:39 PMPosted by Raheya
Please add the fact that when a 1 hand weapon is sheathed on a female night elf in the new model it's a lot higher and it's sticking out now. Compare to the older model where it's hanging lower like a real 1 handed weapon when sheathed. See for yourself and you'll see what I'm talking about.


Here are some pics showing the odd angle of sheathed weapons on Female Night Elfs.

One on the left is Old model - One on the right is new model

http://imgur.com/Wxaqijq

Also here are the weapons when running with speed buff at inn.

http://imgur.com/YWXIFXy

I really dislike the position of the sheathed weapons on the new model. Also they are very stiff and unnatural.


O_____o;; what.......waht this this.......

Night elf rogues suddenly grew tails!!! Yup, that's going up.

10/19/2014 05:01 AMPosted by Incinerater
10/17/2014 12:30 PMPosted by Makki
-Wait....where's my skeleton face gone?!! I can't be Queen Skeletor anymore!? ((ex: http://imgur.com/V6JYg9J ))


I believe you have the wrong pic posted here.


*looks*.....Awww fluck....Okay, hold on, I'll go fix that, gotta find the right picture...Hmmm...where did I put that.....

10/19/2014 06:21 AMPosted by Dela
https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/523234260832886785

Apologies if this was already posted, but in a way your threads have been acknowledged Makki. Good to see.


*faints*
10/19/2014 08:22 AMPosted by Ilüvatar
Night-Elf Male Neck Problem

Hello again, I'm back to help posting screenshots comparing the neck/walking issues of the Night Elf Male model.

Here they are:

Neck Problem when standing

http://i.imgur.com/Wys4y43.jpg

This example shows precisely how the head is inclined too forward on the new n-elf model. The old one looks definitely more confident, and not as if my character needs to see the chiropractor... :(

Neck Problem apparently gone when walking

http://i.imgur.com/iI3cHyj.jpg

[/quote]

Thank you there Ilüvatar!! I was looking into this last night and because the models in WoWhead had a long hairstyle, I really couldn't see it worth a flip. This makes it all the better to prove.

Also, I looooove that transmog.
10/19/2014 09:07 AMPosted by Sibyln
10/19/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Sileas
If it hasn't been mentioned...just found another one, on the draenei female.

This doesn't happen with all mounts, certainly, but if you mount, say, a griffin, and run on the ground, she has a rather uncomfortable-looking rocking motion. Probably has to do with what segment of the running griffin animation they "attached" the draenei to. Remember the old Lich King problem with people wobbling wildly back and forth whenever the drake wiggled its neck? This is the same thing, just on a sagittal plane.


Oh, right.

Speaking of mounts, my gnome sinks into the argent charger's (or whichever the non pally version is) saddle. Her legs are partially consumed by the thing. Oddly enough, the other horses seem to work fine.


Wait what!? Okay, I want pictures, that HAS to be added.

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