BM Kill Command, fix it

Hunter
Seriously Blizz, do you still consider it a Signature shot? Compared to Chimaera shot, for example, it's more expensive focus wise (40 to 35 focus) and it's WAY WEAKER!!! It's simply not worthy using! arcane shot does more damage/focus than KC.
1) Chimera shot is magic damage, Kill command is physical damage, physical damage gets mitigated by armor, nature damage doesn't.

2) chimera shot has a 9 second CD, Kill command as a 6 second CD. Longer CD gets to hit harder than a short CD.

3)at Max level KC will get to benefit from the adaption damage boost.

4) BM pets benefit from invigoration(auto shot crits generate 15 focus instantly) and steady focus, When running the talent blink strikes, your pets basic attacks hit for about 2/5ths of a kill command, 4/5ths of one when your pet has more than 50 focus at the time of cast. Thanks to go for the throat, and steady focus should you take it, you get a lot of "4/5th" Kill command casts from your pet.

5) arcane shot is only more focus efficient when ToTH has proced and is active.
What the drood said

One of the few things that I like about 6.0 BM Hunter is KC, it feels like it's doing a lot more damage than before. Pre-6.0 I was hardly even using it.
I think Kill Command should be scrapped and BM given CS.
As well get rid of Focus Fire and replace it with Aimed Shot. Then make BM pets do equal damage as the other specs and change their mastery to Sniper Training.
Make Cobra shot Steady shot and Get rid of arcane shot and you've solved the problem for BM

Either that or click the MM button. Then you're good. Whichever blizz chooses i guess.
10/27/2014 09:28 AMPosted by Erugan
1) Chimera shot is magic damage, Kill command is physical damage, physical damage gets mitigated by armor, nature damage doesn't.

2) chimera shot has a 9 second CD, Kill command as a 6 second CD. Longer CD gets to hit harder than a short CD.

3)at Max level KC will get to benefit from the adaption damage boost.

4) BM pets benefit from invigoration(auto shot crits generate 15 focus instantly) and steady focus, When running the talent blink strikes, your pets basic attacks hit for about 2/5ths of a kill command, 4/5ths of one when your pet has more than 50 focus at the time of cast. Thanks to go for the throat, and steady focus should you take it, you get a lot of "4/5th" Kill command casts from your pet.

5) arcane shot is only more focus efficient when ToTH has proced and is active.


1) Another reason for Kill Command to be stronger, it will still get mitigated by armor.

2) Agreed. Yet, Kill Command is more expensive, so 40 focus every 6 seconds is more focus dumping than 35 focus every 9 seconds... so, should hit harder (not more than Chimaera, don't get me wrong, but WAY harder)

3) So what? Lone Wolf will buff Chimaera, Aimed, Steady, Auto, and Kill Shot for 30% Increasing WAY BETTER overall damage than 35% to only Kill command, pet's basic attacks and special attacks...

4)That's not the case either. Not talking about the other attacks. These are "fine". especially because all this focus generation you say goes to the pet's bar. Which is not used to pay for Kill Command, that's our's.

5)No, Arcane shot does more damage per focus than Kill command in every situation. Recently did some testing on a dummy. Using a mastery pet for more kill command damage (only buff I had) My maximum Kill Command critical was 21k, and my maximum Arcane Shot critical was 17k.
21000/40= 525dmg per focus; 17000/30= 566,67 dmg per focus! (do the math yourself)
When TotH Procs it just makes AS EVEN MORE powerful compared to Kill Command (17000/10 = 1700 dmg per focus).

And, to top it off, Chimaera Shot Cleaves! Dealing possibly 55K+ crits to BOTH TARGETS (I've done that in raid)

So... Please, fix Kill Command.
10/28/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Devaneiador
5)No, Arcane shot does more damage per focus than Kill command in every situation. Recently did some testing on a dummy. Using a mastery pet for more kill command damage (only buff I had) My maximum Kill Command critical was 21k, and my maximum Arcane Shot critical was 17k.
21000/40= 525dmg per focus; 17000/30= 566,67 dmg per focus! (do the math yourself)
When TotH Procs it just makes AS EVEN MORE powerful compared to Kill Command (17000/10 = 1700 dmg per focus).


Have not tested it myself but I would bet that if this is true expect a Kill Command buff. Also insert obligatory lvl 90 vs 100 comment here. If it is lower at 100 it will be buffed.
10/28/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Devaneiador
1) Another reason for Kill Command to be stronger, it will still get mitigated by armor.

2) Agreed. Yet, Kill Command is more expensive, so 40 focus every 6 seconds is more focus dumping than 35 focus every 9 seconds... so, should hit harder (not more than Chimaera, don't get me wrong, but WAY harder)

Well...

10/24/2014 11:22 AMPosted by Verdash
Kill Command: Give the command to kill, causing your pet to instantly inflict [1.5 * (0 + (Ranged attack power * 1.36)) * 1] damage to its target. 25 yard range.

Explosive Shot: You fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing [(Attack power * 0.429 * 1.08)] Fire damage initially and every second for 2 sec.

Chimaera Shot: A two-headed shot that hits your primary target and another nearby target, dealing 510% Nature or Frost damage to each target.

Assume 1,000 RAP

KC: 1.5 * (RAP * 1.36) -> 2,040
ExpS: RAP*0.429*1.08*2 (or is it 3 ticks? haven't touched Survival since my break...) -> 926.64 (or 1,389.96)
Chimaera Shot: 5,100 (not to mention it cleaves)

Arcane Shot: 110% RAP per 30 Focus (3.667 RAP per Focus)
AImed Shot: 420% RAP per 50 Focus (8.4 RAP per Focus)

You can't just take cast times and cooldowns into account. Aimed Hits that much harder than Arcane (enough to even compensate for the armor advantage Arcane has).

From another thread.

The other thing to consider is BM has a lot of passive damage procs (Focus Fire, Frenzy, Cobra Strikes, +Focus procs, Wild Hunt Basic Attacks etc), and BW is a pretty major CD even compared to Rapid Fire.

It may be some tuning is needed, but BM has its damage more spread out than MM, but that doesn't mean it is lacking damage. BM is about pressure, MM is about nuking.

10/28/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Devaneiador
3) So what? Lone Wolf will buff Chimaera, Aimed, Steady, Auto, and Kill Shot for 30% Increasing WAY BETTER overall damage than 35% to only Kill command, pet's basic attacks and special attacks...

Except BM Mastery is bigger than Sniper Training...and isn't movement restricted

10/28/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Devaneiador
4)That's not the case either. Not talking about the other attacks. These are "fine". especially because all this focus generation you say goes to the pet's bar. Which is not used to pay for Kill Command, that's our's.

But Pet Basic Attacks trigger +20 Focus for us, so yes it does go to pay for KC, while doing damage along the way.
10/28/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Devaneiador
.

5)No, Arcane shot does more damage per focus than Kill command in every situation. Recently did some testing on a dummy. Using a mastery pet for more kill command damage (only buff I had) My maximum Kill Command critical was 21k, and my maximum Arcane Shot critical was 17k.
21000/40= 525dmg per focus; 17000/30= 566,67 dmg per focus! (do the math yourself)
When TotH Procs it just makes AS EVEN MORE powerful compared to Kill Command (17000/10 = 1700 dmg per focus).


That seems amazing to me but I see that you're a mythic BM raider so I assume you know what you're talking about. It seems to make a joke out of the basic BM rotation though. Maybe KC is being balanced around the level 100 adaptation talent, which increases pet damage.

For pvp though I'll just take exotic munitions so in pvp arcane shot seems better even at 100 if what you say is true.
Keep in mind that MM cleave is horrible compared to BM. In fights involving add mobs akin to something like Kargash Bladefist (if I'm remembering it right), BM will probably be more useful for dealing with the add clumps, while MM would be rather lackluster due to low damage output from its Multishot.
10/28/2014 07:22 AMPosted by Devaneiador
1) Another reason for Kill Command to be stronger, it will still get mitigated by armor.


10/28/2014 07:29 AMPosted by Verdash
Chimaera Shot: A two-headed shot that hits your primary target and another nearby target, dealing 510% Nature or Frost damage to each target.

Assume 1,000 RAP

KC: 1.5 * (RAP * 1.36) -> 2,040
ExpS: RAP*0.429*1.08*2 (or is it 3 ticks? haven't touched Survival since my break...) -> 926.64 (or 1,389.96)
Chimaera Shot: 5,100 (not to mention it cleaves)


Nitpicking, chimera shot is not 510% of attack power, its 510% of Weapon damage.

the attack power contribution of the weapon damage from 1k RAP is 1000/3.5=285.71 weapon damage. Unless you can give an assumed weapon damage that is actually similar to the 1000 attack power you assumed in your calculations, we can't get accurate comparisons.

Aimed shot, arcane shot, chimera shot, multi shot, barrage, steady shot, and cobra shot, are all based on our weapon damage (affected by attack power, but still weapon dependent).

Explosive shot, kill command, serpent sting, black arrow, AMoC, glaive toss, pet auto attacks and basic attacks, run on ranged attack power with no contribution from our ranged weapon damage.
10/28/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Asayo
Keep in mind that MM cleave is horrible compared to BM.

Well, comparing Cleave to AOE would be horrible. Beast Cleave isn't really a cleave, it is a supplement to Multi-shot.

Different topic, but I think they should take the bonus damage from Bombardment, and have it apply to the Multi-shot that was used. Something like "You Multi-shots do an extra 15% damage over the next 3 seconds", as a rolling bleed effect.

The Focus reduction would still only apply to subsequent casts.
10/28/2014 08:41 AMPosted by Eurugan
Nitpicking, chimera shot is not 510% of attack power, its 510% of Weapon damage.

the attack power contribution of the weapon damage from 1k RAP is 1000/3.5=285.71 weapon damage. Unless you can give an assumed weapon damage that is actually similar to the 1000 attack power you assumed in your calculations, we can't get accurate comparisons.

I freely admit to doing this off, details like that I haven't had the opportunity to correlate since my break (and yes I thought they had the same scaling, so I thought I was safe.../grumble - reading fail)
The thing with KC to chimera shot is that signatures aren't balanced based on one another, spec damage isn't based on a 1 to 1 comparison, Spec damage as a whole often gets that treatment (when blizzard does its job well), but our damage comes from different sources.

A lot of BM's damage comes from its pet, most of MM and SV"s damage comes from the hunter.

Those pet basic attacks I'm mentioning, are very relevant, more for PVP than PVE. blizz doesn't want to deliberately allow any class to go from being out of combat for an extended period of time to being able to annihilate players.

Going from out of combat to attacking players, a BM hunter will have at least the first 3 pet basic attacks deal double damage, assuming blink strikes is taken, those will hit for 4/5ths of a KC before crit.

In that 6 second window, the BM hunter could get 2 kill commands + 3 basic attacks (about 4 and 2/5th kill commands) plus pet auto attack damage plus arcane shots and a cobra shot or two)

A MM hunter in a 9 second window (CD on chimera shot) could get 2 chimera shots, a couple aimed shots, and a several steady shots.

If KC did as much damage post armor as chimera shot, you would get a ton of burst damage with out even touching BW, and BM would be dominant in PVP just due to getting massive burst by having pet focus pool for really big burst.

Yes, chimera shot will benefit from lone wolf, but both KC and pet basic attacks benefit from adaption, and, the MM hunter running lone wolf won't get the pet's wild hunt boosted basic attack burst.

ATM, MM is getting bigger burst damage (chimera and aimed shot) at the expense of CD, cast time and focus cost, and MM needs rapid fire to keep the aimed shot burst strong while the target is under 80% health. They can't balance KC to match chimera, given how strong pet basic attacks are for BM, its just too much burst BM can line up with out a cast time or line of sight.
Doesn't Spiked Collar still exist in WoD too? Meaning Kill Command has a higher crit chance than Arcane Shot. It throws a wrench into the calculations.

That said, those Damage Per Focus numbers do seem a bit alarming. Blizzard has altered the formula in the past when arcane shot got too close to Explosive or KC. But I haven't seen reports of how it works out at the lower relative gear levels we'll be running at 100. It's possible this won't come up again until a couple patches down WoD.
I wish I could log on to wow and verify what my hunter's attack power is right now, armory says its 400, napkin math (adding all agility up as agility gives 1 ap per point) gives me 1180, *1.05(mail specialization) *1.10(true shot aura)=1362.9 attack power.

Hmm, 1362.9/3.5=389.4 weapon damage.

Take weapon damage range of 376-700, new range is 765.4-1089.4, special shots take the average of the damage range if I'm not mistaken, so thats 927.4 weapon damage for shot calculation purposes.

We also have to account for mastery, both BM and MM mastery affect the damage contributions and balancing.

Some basic spell formula's
Pet basic attack: combat experience*(pet attack power inheritance modifier)*RAP*mastery*blink strikes*WH*spiked collar(1.1)

If MM, remove mastery, if you don't take blink strikes, remove blink strikes. If pet has more than 50 focus on basic attack cast, WH is 2, otherwise, its 1

Kill command: combat experience*RAP*mastery.
Chimera shot: 510% weapon damage *MM mastery percentage if sniper training is up
Aimed shot: 420% weapon damage*MM mastery percentage
Steady shot:75% weapon damage*MM mastery
Arcane shot:110% weapon damage*SV mastery
Cobra shot: 66% weapon damage * SV mastery
Explosive shot:RAP*.429*SV mastery )fire damage initialy and every second for 2 seconds
Black Arrow: RAP*4.4*SV mastery )over 20 seconds.
Multishot: 40% weapon damage*MM mastery *bombardment if active.

Combat experience is 1.5 unless you are BM and have the adoption talent, at which point its 1.85

ID figure out my mastery percentage, but that would require either getting on wow, or me doing more calculation work.

Im not sure if spiked collar affects KC crit wise, or only pet basic attacks/auto attacks.
10/28/2014 09:41 AMPosted by Eurugan
Im not sure if spiked collar affects KC crit wise


Well seeing how other pet passives like command experience (adaptation) affects Kill command , I would assume spiked collar does too.

Looking at my logs, over the course of 14 bosses + all the trash mobs I had like a few hundred kill command cast which ~69% of them were critical hits. My crit % buffed is like ~58% so 58+10 = 68. Seems legit. Almost all overall logs I look at seem to agree.
I just tested it on level 100 beta pvp server with my pvp proc trinket removed. My shale spider's kill command hit the Ironforge raiding target dummy for 8165 physical and my arcane shot hit it for 6337 arcane.

In pvp I see no reason to prefer kill command since arcane shot bypasses armor and I won't have spiked collar since my pet will be cunning for roar of sacrifice. When ToTH procs it seems like arcane shot spam in pvp is the only way to go.
10/28/2014 10:45 AMPosted by Kelleni
I just tested it on level 100 beta pvp server with my pvp proc trinket removed. My shale spider's kill command hit the Ironforge raiding target dummy for 8165 physical and my arcane shot hit it for 6337 arcane.

In pvp I see no reason to prefer kill command since arcane shot bypasses armor and I won't have spiked collar since my pet will be cunning for roar of sacrifice. When ToTH procs it seems like arcane shot spam in pvp is the only way to go.

In PVP, KC helps greatly with pet uptime, and Basic Attacks are significant not only for damage, but for Invig procs.

Plus Focus Fire 92+ (referring to pet uptime/basic attacks, not KC directly)
Why were you not using KC pre 6.0? By far our hardest hitting ability on pull with procs at 587 you could easily crit 1mil. Don't know if trolling or just another misinformed hunter.

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