Three Sheets of Paper

Hunter
This is how it feels to the three hunter "specs" now

In Mists hunters specs were like three sheets of paper, different colors but the same size and shape and with the same talent stickers stuck to each of them

In WoD, to differentiate the specs we took some scissors to the paper and cut holes in each one, and then kept the same amount and types of stickers.

Oh and then that didn't work, so the marks paper now can't move, survival just gets crumpled, and bm got taped back to its original form...

NAILED IT!
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
the marks paper now can't move

Marks can now always move.
I think the only papers you have been dealing with are rolling papers. :P

MM new playstyle...I dont like it. Doesnt mean its bad or gimped, I just dont like it. I see MMs doing fine in 2/3/bg's all day. Great. The spec works and it does have some huge dmg. Its not broken.

SV. Feels pretty gimped right now, but I think thats due to MXstrike being so hard to come by, and we are missing our leveling perks. SV is still completely viable in bgs and arena, it just takes a little more setup and pre-planning on kill windows. The mobility and the sustained dmg are fun.

BM...dont play it. I hear/read good stuff about it.

IMO, SV is gonna be a great pvp spec at 100. I also think alot of other classes who are MXstrike reliant will be good. I believe they will be pleasant surprises and surpass most of the strong classes right now. There will be alot of disappointed re-rolls, who re-rolled solely off of 6.0.2/3.

I see so many threads talking about "rerolling X for WoD" or forecasting succcess/failure for the entire expansion off the pre-patch. Thats so short-sighted.

Blizz wanted distinction between the 3 hunter specs. They did it. Mission accomplished. Now its up each one of us to pick the playstyle we like best.
11/03/2014 10:55 AMPosted by Maryjäne
I think the only papers you have been dealing with are rolling papers. :P


Haha made me lol nice.

11/03/2014 10:55 AMPosted by Maryjäne
Blizz wanted distinction between the 3 hunter specs. They did it. Mission accomplished. Now its up each one of us to pick the playstyle we like best.


Agree with this. There is enough of a difference that now when I get bored I can jump to another spec and it feels different enough.
Imagine if the "core" hunter was turned into the following.

- Focus Generator
- Focus Dump
- Focus Cooldown
- Concussive Shot
- Distracting Shot
- Tranquilizing Shot
- Aspects
- Traps
- Deterrence
- Disengage
- Master's Call

Now, I am sure I am missing a few, obviously the pet management abilites, but consider this the "core hunter" package.

Now, what did BM bring?
- FG: Cobra Shot
- FD: Arcane Shot
- FC: Kill Command
- Unique Spec Ability #1 - Focus Fire
- Unique Spec Ability #2 - Bestial Wrath
- Specialization Passives & Procs

Do similar for MM and SV, and you get the same results as your analogy, but it isn't as negative as you make it out.

Each spec shares a common core, and builds on top of that. Rather than having to use all these different tools in conjunction, the specs are a bit more focused.
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
In WoD, to differentiate the specs we took some scissors to the paper and cut holes in each one, and then kept the same amount and types of stickers.


heh.

yea. that's what bothers me most about all this change... the intention was to make each spec feel more unique, but all they did was just remove abilities rather then making spec unique abilities.

such a joke.
11/03/2014 11:35 AMPosted by Adroi
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
In WoD, to differentiate the specs we took some scissors to the paper and cut holes in each one, and then kept the same amount and types of stickers.


heh.

yea. that's what bothers me most about all this change... the intention was to make each spec feel more unique, but all they did was just remove abilities rather then making spec unique abilities.

such a joke.


Totally agree. It feels like a half baked pie.
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
the marks paper now can't move,

Not true. They can move for several seconds at a time without losing anything from Mastery.
11/03/2014 02:42 PMPosted by Kuwilei
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
the marks paper now can't move,

Not true. They can move for several seconds at a time without losing anything from Mastery.

So if it moves too fast, friction causes it to ignite?
Honestly not a comment about dps or anything, numbers will change. More about how all three specs, marks specifically just feels utterly boring to play, and none of them actually feel unique. They each have a niche but its muddied together because anything fun or cool about hunters belongs to the class and the specs are incomplete without the talent rows that give skills.

I know that no class rotation/priority is built without talents in mind, but most of the hunter skill talent rows, while individual skills are pretty cool, clearly belong to the specs and desperately NEED to be replaced for specs to feel unique. honestly level 75, 90 and 100 talent rows are all a problem and need to be fixed.

Level 75: BM is a master of beasts. Make murder of crows baseline for BM only and it should replace kill shot as an execute, like an execute DoT. Stampede, also clearly BM, should just be BM's long cool down or just be unique to them.

New Level 75: Blink Strikes, Adaptability/Lone Wolf, (insert 3rd talent)

Level 90: These talents should just be called Bloat row, because it's all they add when taken with the other rows. If the 75 and 100 rows are fixed these can work fine. Maybe Glaive toss could fit into SV, but I can give it a pass.

Level 100: Exotic Munitions is exactly what MM is missing. change the name to custom ammunition, and make it MM only; it goes well with the master marksman theme, they would have their own special ammos. Bonus points if you make aimed shot interact with it like Chimera used to with stings. Keep new Chimaera shot as is, its the only defining feature MM has. Focusing Shot could honestly go to MM or just be dropped.

TL;DR- Hunter specs need identity! Radically alter level 75 and 100 talent rows. Give BM Stampede and Murder of Crows. Give MM Exotic Ammunition w/ Aimed shot interaction.
11/03/2014 03:05 PMPosted by Pandamage
Level 75: BM is a master of beasts. Make murder of crows baseline for BM only and it should replace kill shot as an execute, like an execute DoT. Stampede, also clearly BM, should just be BM's long cool down or just be unique to them.

So..where does Bestial Wrath fit in? BM doesn't need 3 CDs... (Bestial Wrath, Focus Fire and Stampede).
11/03/2014 03:07 PMPosted by Verdash
11/03/2014 03:05 PMPosted by Pandamage
Level 75: BM is a master of beasts. Make murder of crows baseline for BM only and it should replace kill shot as an execute, like an execute DoT. Stampede, also clearly BM, should just be BM's long cool down or just be unique to them.

So..where does Bestial Wrath fit in? BM doesn't need 3 CDs... (Bestial Wrath, Focus Fire and Stampede).


I could never suggest removing the iconic hunter ability, and since blizz already wanted to remove Focus fire (because it sounds marksmany) I would say we give some glory back to Bestial Wrath. Merge it with FF, have it actually mean something when pressed again.

I won't even try to give balanced numbers but I imagine it would be something like

"Bestial Wrath: Sends you and your pet into a rage, consuming all frenzy stacks on your pet, restoring X focus to pet and grants X% increased haste/damage per stack and all shots cost 50% less focus for 10 seconds"

It's a lot but its pretty much what is done now with 2 buttons. Tweaking would be needed certainly, but every in this combined version is like pressing BW and FF at the same time on live
11/03/2014 03:26 PMPosted by Pandamage
I could never suggest removing the iconic hunter ability, and since blizz already wanted to remove Focus fire (because it sounds marksmany) I would say we give some glory back to Bestial Wrath. Merge it with FF, have it actually mean something when pressed again.

You mean like the level 92+ perk that gives us +AP? Because BW is worth something now on its own. And if you tied it to Frenzy stacks, you could never open with it. That is a significant downside.

And it is "Focus Fire", as in, hunter/pet focusing on a target, how more BM could you be?
11/03/2014 03:33 PMPosted by Verdash
11/03/2014 03:26 PMPosted by Pandamage
I could never suggest removing the iconic hunter ability, and since blizz already wanted to remove Focus fire (because it sounds marksmany) I would say we give some glory back to Bestial Wrath. Merge it with FF, have it actually mean something when pressed again.

You mean like the level 92+ perk that gives us +AP? Because BW is worth something now on its own. And if you tied it to Frenzy stacks, you could never open with it. That is a significant downside.

And it is "Focus Fire", as in, hunter/pet focusing on a target, how more BM could you be?


I am pretty sure that +AP perk is tied to FF not BW, but either way your right both are worth pressing on their own currently, and will continue to be as they are now.

I only offered a way to reduce the CD usage from 3-2. Yeah you could no longer BW on pull, but you could stampede on pull. Other solutions are keep the buffs un-linked, where the damage increase portion happens without frenzy stacks but the haste is still dependent, then you could still use on pull.

Either way, that is a solvable issue. And also this 3 CD's isn't too much because you can do everything i just said on live right now. the only difference is really it stops others from using stampede and there would be a new talent, in it's place (hopefully a passive one) that defines the hunter class, not the BM spec
i knew this guy wasn't a hunter.
I love the new MM. We hit hard and slow, just like a sniper, and its only going to get better with Lone Wolf.
I think what they have done to the specs is really good. each one now has its own feel, they cant just the same spec with different 1min CD's and a different 6sec CD. At First I did think MM was dull but playing it in PVP is really fun.. trapping a clothie for that 100% crit and then doing aimshot + Chaemira (twin headed dragon attacky thing) is really neat.. its like 40k damage, but its not overpowered because it takes about 5 secs to get just another aimshot off.
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
This is how it feels to the three hunter "specs" now

In Mists hunters specs were like three sheets of paper, different colors but the same size and shape and with the same talent stickers stuck to each of them

In WoD, to differentiate the specs we took some scissors to the paper and cut holes in each one, and then kept the same amount and types of stickers.

Oh and then that didn't work, so the marks paper now can't move, survival just gets crumpled, and bm got taped back to its original form...

NAILED IT!

Here's what's wrong with your analogy. In MOP, hunters had the blandest specs in the game: all three specs were basically the same, from the shot rotation to secondary stat priorities to the feel of every spec. This was not a good thing because it felt lazy and underdone. No DOT snapshotting, the same focus dump for every spec, boring masteries that passively boosted damage, a simplistic shot priority system with high priority proc shots, free movement in just about every situation, and with the exception of Bestial Wrath, not much in the way of buffs to optimize your damage.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11836533975

Now the specs are very different from each other because WOD is just continuing when Cataclysm started (a complete overhaul of the hunter class), but you're not looking at the complete picture. You're thinking "damage, damage, damage," while I'm thinking about how the specs feel. You can always buff damage, but for now, the specs feel just right. BM feels like BM, but the others are worth looking at.

Depending on which spec was top DPS at the time, MM and SV used to feel redundant when put up against each other because they were basically the same spec, only one depended on physical damage while the other hinged on elemental damage, and for the first time since Classic, they no longer feel like lesser copies of each other.

For example, you say MM can't move, but it has the full mobility of a hunter; however, it's at its most optimal when played like other casters: choose your positioning carefully, don't move until you've unleashed the big hitters, and keep movement to a minimum. Its secondary stat priority is set up in such a way that you can pile on crit if you prefer mobility, or go for mastery if you think you can take full advantage of Sniper Training. Some tend to complain because of the lack of an instant shot with no CD, but I feel that much of the gameplay challenge behind MM is keeping an eye on Sniper Training and balancing its maintenance against the long cast time of Aimed Shot and the sometimes-urgent need to move ASAP. If Arcane Shot were allowed, then the player would only stand still long enough to gain Sniper Training, pop off a few Arcane Shots, and start moving again. If you liked hunters back in Wrath, then you're probably going to love MM.

Personally, I think the spec needs a DOT along the lines of Piercing Shots and something akin to Armor Penetration, but right now, it feels like something new and something out of Wrath at the same time. (And Sniper Training was a SV talent, too.)

SV is gimped for now, but only because the secondary stat it does need - Multistrike - is in short supply at the moment, and while it looks to be weak for WOD, no WOW expansion has ever survived a week without being patched upon release, so this may change. Otherwise, the feel of the spec hasn't changed at all: lots of mobility, lots of leeway for on-the-fly decision making, instant shots and DOTs, consistent damage (maybe too consistent), and fairly simple gameplay that appeals to newbies and experienced players alike. I'm not sure I approve of the lack of an execution move, but it would have been nice if SV had a passive that gave its DOTs more damage as the target's life hit a certain threshold.
11/03/2014 11:35 AMPosted by Adroi
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
In WoD, to differentiate the specs we took some scissors to the paper and cut holes in each one, and then kept the same amount and types of stickers.


heh.

yea. that's what bothers me most about all this change... the intention was to make each spec feel more unique, but all they did was just remove abilities rather then making spec unique abilities.

such a joke.

Actually makes the specs, if not classes, easier to balance out - after all, every class and spec went through ability pruning, not just hunters. Also, it wasn't the amount of abilities that made the specs different, but how the core abilities defined the specs. I mean, I wasn't sad to see Serpent Sting go from a baseline ability to SV-only: without Essence of the Viper, it made no sense for a MM or BM hunter to even use it.
11/03/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Pandamage
This is how it feels to the three hunter "specs" now

In Mists hunters specs were like three sheets of paper, different colors but the same size and shape and with the same talent stickers stuck to each of them

In WoD, to differentiate the specs we took some scissors to the paper and cut holes in each one, and then kept the same amount and types of stickers.

Oh and then that didn't work, so the marks paper now can't move, survival just gets crumpled, and bm got taped back to its original form...

NAILED IT!

Here's what's wrong with your analogy. In MOP, hunters had the blandest specs in the game: all three specs were basically the same, from the shot rotation to secondary stat priorities to the feel of every spec. This was not a good thing because it felt lazy and underdone. No DOT snapshotting, the same focus dump for every spec, boring masteries that passively boosted damage, a simplistic shot priority system with high priority proc shots, free movement in just about every situation, and with the exception of Bestial Wrath, not much in the way of buffs to optimize your damage.

Now the specs are very different from each other, but you're not looking at the complete picture. You're thinking "damage, damage, damage," while I'm thinking about how the specs feel. You can always buff damage, but for now, the specs feel just right. BM feels like BM, but the others are worth looking at.

Depending on which spec was top DPS at the time, MM and SV used to feel redundant when put up against each other because they were basically the same spec, only one depended on physical damage while the other hinged on elemental damage, and for the first time since Classic, they no longer feel like lesser copies of each other.

For example, you say MM can't move, but it has the full mobility of a hunter; however, it's at its most optimal when played like other casters: choose your positioning carefully, don't move until you've unleashed the big hitters, and keep movement to a minimum. Its secondary stat priority is set up in such a way that you can pile on crit if you prefer mobility, or go for mastery if you think you can take full advantage of Sniper Training. Some tend to complain because of the lack of an instant shot with no CD, but I feel that much of the gameplay challenge behind MM is keeping an eye on Sniper Training and balancing its maintenance against the long cast time of Aimed Shot and the sometimes-urgent need to move ASAP. If Arcane Shot were allowed, then the player would only stand still long enough to gain Sniper Training, pop off a few Arcane Shots, and start moving again.

Personally, I think the spec needs a DOT along the lines of Piercing Shots and something akin to Armor Penetration, but right now, it feels like something new and something out of Wrath at the same time. (And Sniper Training was a SV talent, too.)

SV is gimped for now, but only because the secondary stat it does need - Multistrike - is in short supply at the moment, and while it looks to be weak for WOD, no WOW expansion has ever survived a week without being patched upon release, so this may change. For now, though, it plays much the way it does now: lots of mobility, lots of leeway for on-the-fly decision making, instant shots and DOTs, and consistent damage (maybe too consistent). I'm not sure I approve of the lack of an execution move, but it would have been nice if SV had a passive that gave its DOTs more damage as the target's life hit a certain threshold.


This is Pandamage on my hunter, see I am one!

Anywho I completely agree with you dps has nothing to do with my stance, numbers change. My original post was, poorly, alluding to the fact that in MoP they were very same-y and . But WoD revisions didn't actually ADD anything to make each spec feel different or exciting/fun, it just kind of cut spells from each one and called it finished (ie; arcane, kill shot,). And at the same time kept 2 and added a 3rd talent row that every spec gets the same skills from, lone wolf excepting. check out my second post for specifics but the short version is down below.

Looking at the specs, sure SV has the most flavor and numbers aside is the strongest flavored/themed kit. One could look at the skills and say this spec is themed around nature "spells", traps and explosive shot; it's theme tracks through it's skills.
BM is pretty solid theme wise; Obviously a "master of beasts", and has skills built around empowering/commanding beast pets and being one with the beast so to speak; as a focus dump arcane shot is serviceable but Murder of Crows and Stampede should be baseline. MoC as an execute, and stampede as a long CD(it's not just that they fit so well into BM specifically, but they make no sense in the other specs; like a fire mage casting frostbolt).
Marks is a mess in it's current state I think we can agree on that. I really love the theme they set out for with MM; themed around positioning, a more tactical sniper, taking aim and unleashing a few big carefully aimed shots methodically. I like the new mastery as a concept and the Chimaera Shot (odd name but ill let it slide) like shooting 2 arrows/bullets at once, but what makes up the rest of the rotation? 2 (or 3 with focusing) shots that are take aim and fire. That's it. I said earlier Exotic Munitions (custom munitions for flavor) should be MM specific, and I would love it to interact with Aimed shot, like old chimera did with stings.

TL;DR- Talents are the source of most Hunter issues flavor wise. They mix spec identity because they are either too perfect for a spec, and/or are just adding the same buttons to the rotation of each (level 75 row). Marks is by far worst off. You can describe both our main focus generator and spender as take aim and fire. I am aware if you break down any class far enough any cast time spell is take aim and fire, but for marks it isn't broken down, that's just what we do...

Check out my second post focusing on talents that should be rolled into individual specs,
11/03/2014 03:50 PMPosted by Pandamage
I am pretty sure that +AP perk is tied to FF not BW, but either way your right both are worth pressing on their own currently, and will continue to be as they are now.

Poor wording on my part, yes it is tied to +AP. BW is worth it on it own, it was FF (as is) that was sometimes a penalty if you used it at the wrong time.

11/03/2014 03:50 PMPosted by Pandamage
Either way, that is a solvable issue. And also this 3 CD's isn't too much because you can do everything i just said on live right now.

Right, but it costs them a talent point, this way they would be replacing it with something else.

And by comparison, SV would have only Black Arrow as a spec specific cooldown, and MM Rapid Fire. BM already has an edge in the CD department, even if FF is "combo point" based.

Personally, as a talent, I hope they reconsider allowing pet's to use specials under Stampede (for aura's/buffs, duration can be as long as Stampede, rather than the normal duration).

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