Ret Pladains:Right where we need to be.

All the chat about how we are a needed "support" class now is well and good.

But let's not forget that by the end of January or sooner most folks will be in ilvl359 gear and healers will likely have figured out how to handle heroics again.

At that point any "support" ret paladins will just be lame pansies being carried by the rest of the group and in need of being shoved over the side pronto...
Obligatory thread stating (class) and/or (spec) is perfectly fine where they are now, plea stop whining (don't forget to misspell whining!), etc. Often a poster of another class and/or an alt.

Obligatory thread stating (class) and/or (spec) is the worst it has ever been, is ruined forever, etc. Often a poster of another class and/or an alt.

Obligatory thread stating (class) and/or (spec) could be 'fixed' with these 'simple homebrew custom changes I made up by myself'.

Obligatory post response in said threads defending, attacking, flaming, complaining, and otherwise going around in circles.

Obligatory post response in said threads demeaning OP and all other posters involved.
FYI, Blizz is on record as saying that there will never be a pure "support class" in WoW. We sacrificed a great deal of our own defense and survivability as Ret in the promise that our damage would be more sustained and consistent. So far, only half that equation has gone through.

OP, at least learn how to spell "Paladin" before claiming we're "perfectly fine".
"I thank you for a post regarding the nature of this thread Laxus, however I think you would be surprised at how different its going to be come raid content. If heroics are this hard for healz its going to much worse in the near future for them. There may come a day soon when if you're not helping out with healz and you have the power to, you may get bumped rather than just looking at your dps. Why get a 3rd healer for some of those fights where a third could be used to great effect, get a Paladin that knows how drop a heal here and there."

For the love of God, it's spelled "heals" NOT "healz".

There will NEVER be a time during raiding when a ret paladin is bumbed from a raid for not healing (unless a boss is almost down, and so are the healers). Maybe for not interrupting, bubbling, or repenting, or neglecting the other tools available for a paladin.

I do agree that it would be cool for ret paladins to have a viable off heal besides LoH (which definitely can turn the fight around), but the way it is now, you're going to go oom way too fast, and our AoE heal does such a weak heal in ret gear that it's not going to make a huge difference outside of 5-mans. If you want to heal, that's fine, but in ret gear, you're not going to have the mana to do what your were placed in the group for, and that's DPS.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you may be able to help keep a healer up from time to time, but it's not something that you're going to be brought to a raid for.
How come every person that starts a post like this ends with "Deal with it or quit"

F**k you buddy I'll complain if I want to.
There's 3 options. Damage Healer Tank.

There's 3 forums, Damage Dealing, Healing, Tanking

Where do we fit in?

I use Holy Radiance about every time it's off cooldown. Same with LoH's. You might say that you've "saved" a raid with these from time to time. But, if you had been say , a mage, and were pulling more aoe dmg and more aoe cc, you probably wouldn't even have been in the situation to start with. Or a hunter with his traps, or a warlock with their soulstones, pets, and candy, or a rogue with his stuns and interrupts etc....My point is that virtually all dps classes have utility they can bring to the raid now whether that's in the form of CC, small heals, or just plain defensive abilities that help a healer's mana.

I'm not complaining about dps because frankly I don't have a dps problem. I just loathe to see people claim we're a dps/heals spec because that is completely untrue. These last changes took away our ability to spam instant flash heals, nerfed our cleanse, nerfed our freedom, took away our little shield, and consolidated our buffs and auras so less pallys are needed per raid. If blizzard's intent was to make us dps/utiility, that's a strange way of doing so.
idk about you but WoG heals for about 9k with 3 holy power... most people have over 100k health unbuffed. So if you think about how much it costs to cast a weak heal like that why even bother?
Ikelleraek there is no such thing as a support spec in this game. If you find you are off healing as ret then 1) your healer is not geared enough for the encounter, or too many DPS are standing in fire, and 2) you are not doing the role you were selected to do. The boss would die quicker if you were DPSing rather than healing so the healer would be under less stress.

As much as you might like there to be support roles in this game at the moment they simply do not exist.

In fact it has gone so far that after 8 seasons of finishing last or almost last blizzard finally realized that there was no role for a defensive DPS hybrid in the game. Well they have said there is no role for one, we assumed that meant we would be fixed for PvP with a standard set of offensive tools in exchange for most of our defense, in reality it turned out that blizzard simply intended to remove ret completely from PvP.
I derided some idiot a few weeks ago for trying to promote Ret as a "support spec". Don't get me wrong, I love being able to offheal, I did my first heroic last night and was using my heals liberally. What I do not want is for my DPS to be kept low just so I can heal more often.

If I queue as a DPS, I expect to be a full-fledged DPS, not some godawful "whack the enemy but be expect to drop back and heal" mishmash.
You know,I do rather like being the unofficial support class.

Repenting an additional mob at the start of combat to lessen pressure,giving a quick Salvation to the healer if he needs it,and WoGing/Sacrificing/LoHing the tank right as he's about to die to save the group,really does feel better compared to simply killing everything in sight.

But then I get booted from the group for not pulling enough DPS on trash. :(
You are correct OP. I hit 85 on the second day of the expansion and spammed heroics with a disc/dktank/feral/random and Zealotry is amazing for defensive use.

Pop Holy Radiance, Zeal, Cs---WoG-cs---Wog---cs-WoG and let the healer regen. LoH the tank when he gets sub 30% or w/e the fight requires. You even have 3-4 Flashes depending on if you fit a Judgement for mana back in there. You should always keep the mana return buff up on your healer while doing Zeal offensively or defensively (esp defensively).

We used this many times and won many first attempts at heroic bosses. When you're in greens/normal blues an offhealer will be your saving grace against heroic bosses such as the last boss in Lost City.

Ret Paladins must understand....we do competitive dps if you understand our priority system and manage it according to the situation. However, dps doesn't matter at all if you wipe. As a ret, if you did not heal and someone died because the healer was oom...the wipe could have been avoided by your heals. You caused the wipe. Your heal buttons do not disappear because you specced ret. If you specced ret because you want to dps alone roll a dps-only class.

We sacrifice a lot of our damage to provide a decent amount of heals in a tight spot. Get over yourselves and learn how to play our class.

When your gear level is equal to the difficulty of the content then you can full time dps and shine. I've done 11k+ on single target mobs before in 5 mans. Our dps is not bad. Understand these:

HoW > Exorcism > 3HoPo TV > CS > Judge > Holy Wrath > Consecration.

Str > 961 Hit rating (8%, 6% only required for normals)> 26 Expertise ( 10 from glyph) > Haste (cs) > crit > mastery > int.

Starting a fight with Judge ---CS---HW----CS will 75%+ of the time give you HoPo for Inquisition. Your ramp up time is about 8 seconds max after contacting the boss if you get no procs at all.

We ARE DPS primary and HEALER secondary. We can dps full time and wipe because someone screwed up or we can dps most of the time and win because we healed when things go wrong.

It's your choice. If you pick wrong I'll simply defeat more bosses than you and have better loot.
we don't have enough flexibility to properly fill a support/dps with the tools they gave us, we fit that role much better in WoTLK with the old version of AoW.
I'm basically a noob...

But saying that if you make a heal in a tight spot and that you should not be doing that because there is not enough dps or the healer is not doing his job right.

That's like saying that you help someone else to not have a accident, when you shouldnt, and be minding your business when you had the tools and the way of doing it (preventing the accident). And rather that you should let the accident happen since its the driver fault or whatever.

If you have a tool... and you can use it to do something good why not use it?

I understand, and agree to the point saying that it must be someone who is not doing his job right....

but if you are right there... why not toss a heal if that will help you not wipe?
Jornak there is a huge difference in throwing the odd HL on yourself during a running out phase or a LoH on the tank or healer and what the OP is suggesting which involves edging a lot closer to a proper support role.

I have been raiding since early TBC and I can count up the number of times my off healing has saved a raid without needing to take my socks off. In fact in my experience it is more common for you to find that if it is that close a fight and you decided to go off healing the wipe will come with a boss close enough to death that if you had been performing your proper role then it would not have been a wipe.

And remember that a lot of the time our off heals are not helping anyway. The healer knows someone is in trouble and probably has a big heal in the pipeline. Your piddly little HL or WoG probably did nothing useful but too away rDPS.
Ret is stupid right now end of story. As prot I out dps any ret palladin and heal more. Also in pvp I top any ret pallys dps as prot soooooo there is something definately wrong with ret and needs to be fixed immediatly.

3 holy power, templars verdict = 15k crit
3 holy power, shield of righteous 25k + avenger shield 15k crit pretty stupid eh?

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