So lets quit complaining...

too much of "this blows! that sucks, and this aint worth a @%@!...!" on these forums.

How bout we start to figure this @%@! out..

whats the best things going for each spec for pvp and pve?? what do you all think.
Im clueless I have been outa the loop for a year untill cata.

But kudo's to you Musclechow your the first person trying to do something proactive instead of complaining.
My mind set is even if they did nerf ret or holy or prot what ever. Just means when you do work harder and end up pwning that random person or out dpsing that mage you prove that your a bad ass player!
Come on now why are you here? Greasemonkey go lay down.
Ill say this. Ret is complicated but ill take complicated over borrin

holy is cool how we can run and aoe heal! we also get a lil offense. so thats pretty cool aswell..

anyone else?
I'm annoyed that our HP dumps only really work with 3 charges. I'm also annoyed that we only have 1 way of constant gen and several 40% variables.

The ramp up time sucks, watching the Inquisition buff timer is annoying while watching for AoE. Not to mention as well as watching for one of our random stockpiles of procs to pop up, needing to pick and choose on the spot or screw yourself over for the next 'X' seconds.

But the main thing, I want to say it's MAJOR...But our seals? Quite frankly I hate them. I can deal with everything being thrown at me, but these damn phenominally craptastic seals need a buff.

And no, before someone comes in saying "QQ, reroll", shove it. Still playing the class, just wish we'd have a bone thrown to us sometime soon.
Ooooo k. Actually, there have been a ton of suggestions. But for my two cents.

Yank HP, and start over.

Combo points cause the ramp-up, one chief complaint. As for the RNG, if not on proc, those skills would either have to be casting, instant, or implemented into the combo system. Making them casting would make it impossible to keep up the combo points and would make the situation worse. Making them instant would make us insanely powerful. Putting them all into the combo system, that would really make us just like Rogues.

Bottom line to me is, they tried to take one design and shove it into another, completely different, design that wasn't made to do what they're trying to make it do. How many other classes have two resources? Two resources, two different designs.

It's like sticking a hammer head on the top of a shovel pole. Can you use it? Sure. Spose some might like having a hammer with a 4 foot grip. But it's going to be juuuust a tad awkward. Not to mention unecessary. Chop the pole back down to size, problem solved. Go back to the drawing board and enhance the original design, stop trying to make it something it's not.
Musclechow, the reason people are "complaining" is not because they are just winers, there is valid reason to complain. So let me address your question first. There really are not many options for holy pally's as it stands after all the nerfs. Let us get a few obvious things out of the way assuming we are talking raid heals for heroics where tanks are hitting over 150K health:

1. HL is completely useless now and should only be used when there is no need to actual heals someone with a purpose, therefore at times when you are just bored. It has an extremely long casting time and heals for absolutely nothing! It is quite frankly a waist of time and I would rather recover all the mana from not casting than casting just to cast and only gaining 50% mana regen while casting.
2. LoD is now totally worthless. Again hitting for 1K - 3/4K is nothing more than a waist of HP. When you can get a heal of 12k-21K and a 30% chance to not consume HP WoG is definitely the way to go. Remember we are dealing with most characters that have well above 30K and tanks that have 150K, what is the point is using three HARD EARNED HP's to waist it like that. In fact, I will take this to another degree and say that you should just go ahead and respec out of this talent, put it somewhere more useful although do not get me started on the holy talent tree. After the nerf it is completely convoluted now and I don't even see much benefit in the higher talents of the tree but now we are forced into 31 points. I actually speced our of LoD.
3. FoL is not as useless as HL and LoD, but just behind. It actually does have a place. When you need a fast heal, and HP is not up for WoG, and HS is on CD (but HS will not really save anyone from anything) FoL is our only option b/c unless you have HS crit proc up and someone is going down attempting a DL will get them kill due to the long cast time. So FoL is viable to keep them from dieing buy us some precious time to use HS or WoG or DL immediately after depending on the situation. Other than that, stay away from FoL because it is extremely mana consumptive for a mediocre heal.
4. HS is again another Terrible heal, but necessary to use at every opportunity to gain HP and in hopes to proc on a crit for a quick DL (NOT HL that would be a complete waist).
5. WoG is used with HP NOT LoD. Use it as soon as possible as keeping three stacks of HP will result in waisting very valuable mana.
6. DL was intend to be a very big heal, ha. Sure blizz ... I will digress from that thought as we are trying to move forward right. DL is our bread and butter heal now. Although it is a long casting time it should be used as the primary heal. It certainly will not bring a tank up in two heals as was promised by Blizz, in fact it heals less than 1/6 of a tank at 150K health so still quite poor but what can we expect, Blizz wants us to struggle now. So it is mana expensive but our only option to actually make an impact heal.
7. Holy Radiance, I am just waiting for this to get nerfed, but as it stands today, its a great tool, but mana costly so it should be used conservatively. I find that when coupled with Wings, it makes for an extremely effective heal. I have a macro to cast wings and HR.

So in summary, Can LoD, HL, use FoL when absolutely necessary. HS, DL, WoG are our bread and butter spells, but don't expect much out of HS, it's only beneficial to proc for a fast DL. WoG is still a very viable heal once we can generate enough HP (make sure to glyph into it also). HR is a great heal when used correctly, during AoE damage.

Moving on, I am finding that Judging every 6 secs helps mitigate our mana struggle a little bit but during heavy damage judging becomes a very low priority. I have also found that I need to get up close to mobs to use CS at every opportunity to generate HP. This works relatively well but also ensure we will take more damage, and this gets a bit confusing b/c we are healing, judging, CS, slow heals with DL, and trying to manage mana. Makes for a very convoluted situation.

In summary, I do see the need to accept the disgrace Blizz has put us in, but at the same time it is difficult to deny the fact that they have chipped away at so much of our heals that at this point we are left with four viable heals, one of which is a joke. So please do not confuse complaints, which there are plenty of people doing this, with a legitimate claim that Blizz has made several mistakes with Holy Pally's and instead of a redesign they are trying to chip away at what we currently have (coming from a software engineer I can relate to this although it is generally NEVER the best option to fix a problem. Instead it is the quickest, most efficient way to cover up mistakes). Sure healing is still viable for Holy Pally's, but at the same time it is quite slow, mundane and disappointing.
too much of "this blows! that sucks, and this aint worth a @%@!...!" on these forums.

But kudo's to you Musclechow your the first person trying to do something proactive instead of complaining.

One, he's complaining. Two, telling people to "quit complaining" and other such related nonsense isn't conducive to a constructive environment.
too much of "this blows! that sucks, and this aint worth a @%@!...!" on these forums.

How bout we start to figure this @%@! out..

whats the best things going for each spec for pvp and pve?? what do you all think.

I like you.

ret pairs best with a caster now, mostly mages IMO, Ret/frost/rsham is looking strong.
From my few arena games played it seems as though ret is better in arena, or maybe i'm more accustom to arena then BG's. My only issue was my resil was low, and well, warriors/casters/feral druids could rip me apart (For the melee, I didn't have sword/board, which helps alot)

playing in the 2k's I didn't see much dispelling other then wings to be honest. I don't think ret is enough of a threat for people dispel zealotry and inquisition. I didn't have inquisition dispelled once.

I'm still confused on what to do with this stupid pet summon in PVP.. I've seen QQing from rogues about how it kept them out of stealth, which I think might be a half decent use for it. Other then that I guess just stack more damage..
Ok im going to look at this from a more PVP point of view and also this is off the top of my head but anyway here goes.

Also Its ok if you dont read all of this i understand and dont nag at me about it being too long or bad spelling.

I think that Holy is leaning just about where it needs to be. The ability to heal and even do some damage. I like the idea of going into battle and crusader striking somone and doing some exorisims. But its missing the ability to heal while doing that. Here is a talent in holy to work with "when a successfull crusader strike hits an enemy from the paladin it heals all party or raid members in the area by 150% (With a cap of course) of the damage dealt." Or maybe "charge to a party or raid member in combat within 30 yards and reduce all damage taken by the target by 50% increasing the paladins heals by 5% and reducing all threat on the paladin and party or raid member by 100% for 10 seconds" yea some of it can be OP but its just off the top of my head. I think with some utility Such as "when the paladin takes damage from a critical strike the damage received heals a party or raid member with the least amount of health within 15 yards by half of the amount recived by the paladin. this can only occur once every 10 seconds." Stuff like that. Would be pretty neat. Giving holy a new way of healing. More like a crappy damage healing when not having to spam heals. Also adding more utility for pvp. And seal of insight......... not really a healer seal if the healer is never needing the main part of the seal.........heals the paladin and gives the paladin mana on some attacks........i say that sucks for a paladin that doesnt melee ever. I say once again add some Utility to it. Instead add "Grants the paladins damaging melee and spell hits to Increase the amount healed to the paladin and all party or raid members by 1% or 2% per charge of insight stacking up to 5 lasts 30 seconds. When you judge with this seal it increases the amount healed by the paladins next heal by 1% per charge of insight And also granting the paladin, party and raid members 15% of there base mana(or equvelent such as rage or focus) This would make paladin healing more up close and personal. And add some more paladin specific healing. Also it would make a seal actually important to have.
Now as for Prot. I think protection needs to be more protective. Such as lets say a spell that does "Places a (enter awsome word here such as prayer or something) on the paladin that Transfers an attack on a party or raid member within 15 yards to the paladin increasing the paladins attack by X% or maybe reducing the damage the paladin receives by X% amount for 30 seconds". Or maybe something like " charge to a party or Raid member currently in combat and reduce the targets threat and damage taken by 50% for the next 10 seconds increasing the paladins damage by X amount or granting a charge of holy power or transfering all threat to the paladin" or how about much ass.............hurray deal crappy damage and slow somone down to normal run speed for 5 seconds woopdy doo. How about........add something useful for tanking in it. or something actually cool for pvp. LIKE "seal of justice grants the paladins melee attacks a chance to deal X damage and place a charge of justice on the target reducing movement speed by 3% stacking up to 5. Judging the enemy reduces the damage dealt by the target and increases all damage done by all party or raid members by 2% for .5 seconds for each charge of justice."thats awsomely bad ass and good for pvp and pve i think. In a nut shell ADD SOME MORE UTILITY!!! like some "PROTECTION" spells

Now for ret..............poor poor ret............ Im a retadin at heart. Just recently let go because i dont want to be a rogue that sucks lol. I like the idea of making something new with Ret but giving us "ramp up" damage is bad......for pvp at least. maybe add some officeive support role spells like paladins are suppose to have such as "When the paladin critical strikes an enemy increase the damage of the paladin by 3% and the critical strike chance of all party or raid members within 15 yards by 1% stacks 3 times. Adding just that crappy 1 % to something we already have makes us more loved. instead of seal of truth dealing crappy damage actually make it support based. or both. "Seal of truth. When the seal is active it grants each melee hit the chance to place a charge on the enemy increasing damage taken by the paladin by 3% and all others by 1% stacking up to 5 times. When you judge an enemy with this seal it deals X damage plus increases the damage of the next attack the paladin and all party or raid members make within 15yards by 1% per charge of truth." That would make it cool. Things like that. If you cant make us do competitive dps at least let us add that damage to others instead lol. Or maybe a talent "Your Crusader strike criticals now also increases the critical chance of you and all party or raid members within 15 yards by 5% for 5 seconds.
Take out seal of righteous..........and as for the auras. They could also use some usefulless. maybe lets see. Devotion Aura "increases armor by X amount and reduces damage by all party and raid membors by X% of paladins health" Ret aura..............really sucks honestly. Give us something more usefull than melee attackers take a usless amount of damage lets maybe make it something like. "All melee and spell attacks on the paladin deal % back to the target as well.(something like 2% or something crappy like that)and all party and raid members get 2% crit rating or haste or damage. Concentration actually kinda cool kinda right where it needs to be. But other members of the party such as MELEE benefit none for this. so how about "35% less casting or channeling time when damaged and increases melee armor penetration by X ammount. Resistance aura does what it needs to. which is add resistance. and crusader aura as well.

Pretty much all i think paladins need is Utility. When i think of a paladin i dont think of some dude bashing something to oblivion i think of an orc warrior when i think of that. I also dont think of them healing everyone super ultimatly either. When i think of a paladin. I think of a support melee caster that can "Heal others up close and in the battle offering spells that heal and attacks that heal other combatents like divine storm lol. Ensuring the survival of the group" OR " A warrior with sword and board offering the defence of his comrads, rushing to the aid of others reducing damage to himself and allies. also with buffs to allies defence and endurence to make his men last longer." OR "A paladin with a large 2 handed weapon offering decent damage that increases over time as well as his comrads. Also with abilities or buffs that increase damage or crit to his allies and himself to make a battle end quicker." A class that people can love to bring to raids and to arena. YES EVEN IF YOUR RET lol. like i said earlyer this is all just of the top of my head so yea no need to say a spell i came up with is OP or stupid. i was just babling. And also i dont care about mispelling i can read it and anyone can read this as well. Im not taking a college placement test it doesnt need to be perfect. Well Chao fellow brothers and sisters of light. Ill check up on this forum to see how this post is doing.
Sooooo..................nothing? no one?

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