What the Meta Feels Like

Arenas
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12/15/2014 12:19 PMPosted by Jao
12/15/2014 12:08 PMPosted by Arkiz
This should not happen, and thankfully I don't think it will.


The way I saw it, he meant that missing your kick causes a global, but it remains an instant on-use cooldown.


Oh. Well I'm not sure how that would work. MS --> .5 second later kick = 2 second global? I could be missing something though.

One design thing we need to be wary of is the tendency to try to nerf things by adding costs / downsides. Costs and downsides generally work only when they punish failure. Chaos bolts huge lockout vulnerability works like that: huge cost and downside if you fail, but it feels good anyway because if you succeed you don't pay those costs.

Making interrupts more expensive / punishing or whatever is different. We could for instance make kick cost energy, but then the rogue has to think about whether the energy is worth the kick. That might seem cool, but in practice it is generally still going to be worth kicking anyway (if we tune it so that it's not then we broke the game). As a result you get a situation where the rogue kicks just like before but instead of being an unalloyed bonus when he lands one it feels kind of meh.

Keeping the game feeling clean in this sense makes it more fun. So I am against adding resource / GCD costs to kick. Success needs to be unambiguous. Kicking should be unambiguously good. Maaaybe you could do something like kick costs 20 energy but if you land it you get it back. Still seems like a bad idea though. The intuitive downside of missing should be that you missed.

/steps down from soapbox.
12/15/2014 09:33 AMPosted by Absterge
Nothing like juking both kicks, getting 8sec kidneyed, then gouged, then having to juke both kicks once again ^-^


^^^^^
12/15/2014 11:26 AMPosted by Gaudrik
New post every day saying the same thing. Don't you people have better things to do?


The same could be said to you, considering you seem to be reading these same posts every day.
12/15/2014 12:03 PMPosted by Lokthen
12/15/2014 10:46 AMPosted by Wutangrza
Yes, but lining an affliction lock is a whole lot less useful than lining a mage. You're still going to be rotting. Affliction does so much spread damage that current healer throughput has a very difficult time keeping up other than rdruid.


Also disagree. Affliction has FOUR throttles on dot damage.

Haunt
SB:Haunt
Malefic Grasp
Dark Soul

Without at least two of the four rolling, your dots hit for absolutely nothing and are outhealed by passive healing (go try it; I know I have. My baseline dots are outhealed by a hunter's spirit bond)

With all 4 up, the damage is unreal and no healer can keep up. That seems to be an issue to me. I would rather have meaningful dots and less throttles dealing constant pressure to be honest. But to my previous point, you can LoS until the dots fall off (not that they last a long time except for agony).


Right, but who you SB:Haunt isn't as important as just being able to SB:Haunt. You spread pressure, then dark soul SB:Haunt and you've got amazing single target damage and all of a sudden your spread damage is going crazy too.
12/15/2014 12:36 PMPosted by Wutangrza
You spread pressure, then dark soul SB:Haunt and you've got amazing single target damage and all of a sudden your spread damage is going crazy too.


So 2/4 throttles up (and 3/4 up on one target), just like I said. You understand that dot dmg is pretty much non-existent until you have those throttles up and running? Dark Soul has a cooldown. SB: Haunt requires half our shards. Etc.

EDIT: I'm not saying the damage is bad. I'm saying there's more to it than just dot targets and watch them die. And it's perfectly viable to LoS the warlock, given that when he has no LoS to you, he can't put dots on you. And since he has poor mobility, that is an easy goal to accomplish.
Dude affliction is fine. I just don't see it. Yes the spread damage can be scary when everything gets rolling but that is working as intended. You like all a lock has to do is spam instant dots and profit. If you don't have haunt and drain soul up passive healing like spirit bond out heals your dots. Recoup will out heal it. Affliction is fine.
12/15/2014 09:13 AMPosted by Stoik
. I think it just pairs well with bursty classes right now, but don't the top players still play sub?? Pika, pshero, nahj ?

I play sub rmp on my main and combat on my alt that's higher than my main, but fluctuates a lot based on my ques whenever I play RMD instead of real OP comps like ret rogue/rld. Though i'm at the point that I might just sellout and play RLD for freelo.

Pika is the only rogue consistently sticking to sub who's had any success on the US ladder. As sub you and everyone on your team can't make a single mistake or you auto loss even if the enemy team makes 20 per minute.

On EU the top rogues are sub, but there's only 1 rogue on the front page from the lack of combat over there.

Combat is overpowered and outshines sub in a lot of match ups especially vs rets/holy paladins.

In this meta HLPala, combat rld, ret dk mw monk (ret support +1min cocoon imba), ret lock sham/mw monk, scleave (dk lock hpally/monk) and ret combat rogue priest are far too strong from good cooldown trading value and not being able to die.

Punching a brick wall over and over again till someone on your team randomly dies isn't fun.
12/15/2014 01:19 PMPosted by Nahj
In this meta HLPala, combat rld, ret dk mw monk (ret support +1min cocoon imba), ret lock sham/mw monk, scleave (dk lock hpally/monk) and ret combat rogue priest are far too strong from good cooldown trading value and not being able to die.

Punching a brick wall over and over again till someone on your team randomly dies isn't fun.


Glad to get input from you.

I don't keep tabs on the EU ladders at all - is smokebomb popular there too? Have queued into so many different teams playing it this past week.

I agree w/ the Cocoon thing - maybe it only incurs a 55sec CD when it's used on ourselves? I really need it to survive, but I can see how if I'm not being trained, it is probably too strong.

12/15/2014 01:19 PMPosted by Nahj
Pika is the only rogue consistently sticking to sub who's had any success on the US ladder.


Is he playing with Mageiden?
12/15/2014 01:36 PMPosted by Jao
Is he playing with Mageiden?

mageiden played combat rmpala with generic.

Paladin is best healer for rogue mage this patch/meta. 30 sec forbearance and freedom glyph are way too strong. Mages are very weak right now and sub has a lot of bad match ups particularly against both ret and holy paladins.

Though combat is a lot stronger cooldown value wise against paladins to be able to carry a mage, but at that point why isn't the rogue just fotming a real comp if they are already selling out to play a boring spec.

Even pika jah and starship tanked as sub rmd to way inferior players. Most of pika's success this season from what I've seen/heard was rogue boomkin priest (pre nerf to boomkin) and some rdruid thug cleave.
Wait, where are the nerfs to frost DK damage or survivability?
12/15/2014 01:56 PMPosted by Yesene
Wait, where are the nerfs to frost DK damage or survivability?


They do die. I mean, paired with a hybrid in 2s, it takes longer than it probably should. But you can work through their defensives pretty easily.

Damage wise, there is an issue. Either they need less uptime or we need to be healing for more, because the damage is too high.
This isn't a black and white melee/ranged issue. As you admit, there are melee who are in pretty much the same state as mages--namely monks, warriors, enhance, and to a lesser extent, ferals. Meanwhile, locks, boomkins, and hunters are all doing great. So we have a clump of melee doing great, and a clump of ranged doing great.

So seems to me, target the problem specs and buff up the underperforming ones. Don't screw up the balance by making general changes to all melee, i.e. tinkering with interrupts or giving all ranged more mobility. You do that, and we'll be right back in pandaria with caster cleaves and god comp. completely dominating for the entire xpac.
12/15/2014 02:29 PMPosted by Anbhogo
namely monks, warriors, enhance, and to a lesser extent, ferals.


I mean, on the ladder and in my experience, Warriors are better than even Ferals in 3s. And the ladder would support me in saying that. You're middle of the pack and -dare I say it- balanced. Even though your rotation as Arms is just a complete joke - wish something was done about that.

12/15/2014 02:29 PMPosted by Anbhogo
Meanwhile, locks, boomkins, and hunters are all doing great


AFFLICTION Locks are doing well. Hunters are doing great because of Rets. Boomies though? They're dropping quickly off the ladder. The ones that are high got there pre-nerfs.

12/15/2014 02:29 PMPosted by Anbhogo
You do that, and we'll be right back in pandaria with caster cleaves and god comp. completely dominating for the entire xpac.


In MoP, a skilled God comp could look at a War, Deep/Blanket, force trinket/wall, and then turn to his partner and force at least one defensive in a PoM polly.

They aren't even capable of doing 1/4th of that damage, outside of a Prismatic Crystal that you choose to sit in because you yolo'd your trinket on something.
Your complaints about Melee might be relevant regarding Rogues/Rets (unpeelable pressure--> high uptime), but a broad nerf across the board for Melee or buff for Wizard mobility would crush the already hamstrung WoD Warrior. Our DPS is medicore outside of cleave comps, and with the removal of SS dispel, have no true single-target oriented spec that still brings some utility to the team.

We are also currently THE most susceptible class to snares--no other class has as little recourse or are rendered as devastatingly useless by snares than the Warrior. We have all of one snare-break in our toolset outside of trinkets on a minute CD. This is bladestorm (assuming you didn't take Avatar, which would be 3 minutes), and would be used as a snarebreak at the expense of a CD that could otherwise be used for a burst setup.

Rogue? Just Burst of Speed (spammable, just costs a GCD)
Ret? Emancipate (spammable, just costs a GCD)

Snares are trinket worthy threats for Warriors in WoD--the thought of using a Trinket or major offensive CD as a snarebreak is a laughable notion for most other classes who can continue to provide something to the fight in the form of either ranged attacks or support abilities.

Take a look at the 3v3 Leaderboards. Warriors aren't particularly well represented, despite being THE single most represented class across all live-realms.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3#page=1

There's all of 6 Warriors in the Top 100--most of these are Rank 1 players who have always been on page one of the leaderboards--now relegated to Page 2. The last Top 100 Warrior is ranked at 98, and is literally within 2 points of being bumped off the rankings, leaving only 5 Warriors securely placed in the Top 100.

Still think ALL melee need to have their efficacy reduced?
12/15/2014 03:05 PMPosted by Lanikk
Rogue? Just Burst of Speed (spammable, just costs a GCD)


Does not remove them from snares. Most rogues running Step anyways. They play with Hpallies for freedoms, and have a healer prioritizing them for dispels.

12/15/2014 03:05 PMPosted by Lanikk
There's all of 6 Warriors in the Top 100--most of these are Rank 1 players who have always been on page one of the leaderboards--now relegated to Page 2. The last Top 100 Warrior is ranked at 98, and is literally within 2 points of being bumped off the rankings, leaving only 5 Warriors securely placed in the Top 100.


Don't look at top 100 ever. It's super inaccurate.

Try searching over 2200s. You're equal to DKs, and only slightly less represented compared to Rets (the top melee at the moment).

Also, if you check the original post, I didn't say anything about blanket nerfs to melee. I presented an either-or scenario. But there are broad-issues in the game creating gross imbalances between casters and melee generally.
Jao, this was an excellent post. I honestly think another part of the issue is that in this meta burst casters aren't just getting few opportunities to burst, they're doing pretty bad overall damage. This is leading to melee feeling EXTREMELY comfortable pushing all the way in 100% of the time.

Last expansion melee had to be very careful pushing in as even 10s of CC on their healer could spell trouble with mage/lock/spriest burst.
12/15/2014 03:18 PMPosted by Jao
Does not remove them from snares. Most rogues running Step anyways. They play with Hpallies for freedoms, and have a healer prioritizing them for dispels.


you mean they cant break roots, they break snares all the time.

12/15/2014 03:18 PMPosted by Jao
Don't look at top 100 ever. It's super inaccurate.

Try searching over 2200s. You're equal to DKs, and only slightly less represented compared to Rets (the top melee at the moment).

Also, if you check the original post, I didn't say anything about blanket nerfs to melee. I presented an either-or scenario. But there are broad-issues in the game creating gross imbalances between casters and melee generally.


Warriors are mid pack, but we need some slight buffs to utility and survival and we will be a good spot.
12/15/2014 03:26 PMPosted by Sadar
Jao, this was an excellent post. I honestly think another part of the issue is that in this meta burst casters aren't just getting few opportunities to burst, they're doing pretty bad overall damage. This is leading to melee feeling EXTREMELY comfortable pushing all the way in 100% of the time.


Yeah agreed. I mean, I like the idea of less burst, and making it harder to also heal.

But melee uptime ruins that ideal.
12/15/2014 03:35 PMPosted by Ezyo
Warriors are mid pack, but we need some slight buffs to utility and survival and we will be a good spot.


...you're doing fine as a spec. There are just better melee specs that need to be brought back down to earth.
12/15/2014 12:16 PMPosted by Bigwoof
I don't think having kicks be on the GCD is a good idea for a couple reasons.
1st - GCD length for some classes is quite long, especially at the start of an xpac.
2nd - it would make juking interrupts harder. Currently you can gauge how fast a player likes to kick during an arena, adding the GCD would add a sense of RNG to this mind game that works against the caster.
3rd - missing a grounding or termoring late because of GCD isn't fun and I don't imagine that it would be with our kicks either.


So, using a GCD isn't worth the 4+ seconds lockout?

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