The Myth of the Sitting Mythical Rogue.

Rogue
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There seems to be this misconception right now that rogues are getting sat in mythic progression. Let's just dispell that notion here.

Midwinter.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Kaowa/advanced
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Vigilate/advanced

Method.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Perfecto/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Noxe/simple

Ascension.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/barthilas/Chuckles/advanced

Rapid Eye Movement.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/tarren-mill/Maxkwlty/simple

Practice.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shattered-hand/Chamze/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shattered-hand/M%C3%ADneo/simple

These are some of the top guilds doing world first mythic progression. Notable regular absence of rogues are paragon, with no rogues and blood legion which seems to use rogues on a fight per fight basis. That Russian guild seem to be employing a mass class stacking strategy.

We can see of the mythic kills that are public that rogues have above average representation for rogues in kills.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6

At the time of this post, rogues account for 8.8%. Which, mind you, appears to over represent our 7-ish percent population.The is not a new behavior, rogues have enjoyed above average representation in hard modes last expansion. So this is normal.

The numbers show combat being very popular, subtlety less so, and Asn bringing up the rear. There's still too little data to make accurate conclusions about dps for mythic because numbers are so low, but as you can see, rogues are not being avoided, even at the time when every little edge counts. Turns out that bringing a variety of specs, skilled players and tons of hours is a fairly successful strategy.

This doesn't mean that rogues don't have any issues at all. But the hyperbole of rogues getting sat in mythic is suitably a myth. Talk about your issues, be specific, and avoid falsehoods to support your arguement. It doesn't do anyone any good. The devs aren't going to fall for it, so why would you expect it to be convincing.

Correction: "that Russian guild" is named Exsorsus, and appears to just not include a rogue in their regular comp, not stack classes. Thank you fiery for your correction.

There is some indication that these world first guilds may not be bring rogues at the same rate as of all the mythic kills listed on warcraftlogs.
It's sad when most pure dps classes are average or worse
This doesn't mean that rogues don't have any issues at all. But the hyperbole of rogues getting sat in mythic is suitably a myth. Talk about your issues, be specific, and avoid falsehoods to support your arguement. It doesn't do anyone any good. The devs aren't going to fall for it, so why would you expect it to be convincing.

Couldn't care less about what the devs think, class is beyond broken, rolled a feral a long time ago.
12/12/2014 02:25 AMPosted by Rînn
It's sad when most pure dps classes are average or worse


Hybrid players don't put any value into the fact that they CAN theoretically tank/heal when the time comes. Of course, they surely put value into it when their off-specs are nerfed (eg, a resto no longer being able to bear up and become immortal) or when it comes to soloing old content (Ret<->Prot).

But in their view, their healing offspec gives them no benefit in combat, so it's totally worthless.

I'm not sure I disagree with them, but then where is the pure class recompense? Just seems like being a pure is a penalty now. Might account for why pures (esp Warlocks) have seen continued decrease in play each year.
12/12/2014 02:43 AMPosted by Burebista
This doesn't mean that rogues don't have any issues at all. But the hyperbole of rogues getting sat in mythic is suitably a myth. Talk about your issues, be specific, and avoid falsehoods to support your arguement. It doesn't do anyone any good. The devs aren't going to fall for it, so why would you expect it to be convincing.

Couldn't care less about what the devs think, class is beyond broken, rolled a feral a long time ago.


Pardon? Just who, exactly, do you think made feral? Have you even consider that, since you rolled feral so long ago, that you just happen like feral better? Because I don't care what numbers feral puts out. It is innately unappealing to me.
Pardon? Just who, exactly, do you think made feral? Have you even consider that, since you rolled feral so long ago, that you just happen like feral better? Because I don't care what numbers feral puts out. It is innately unappealing to me.

I actually prefer rogue gameplay to be honest but I also prefer being rewarded for my efforts instead of being average at best due to "rogues not being familiar with combo points" or whatever Blizzard stated about the rogue community.
12/12/2014 03:12 AMPosted by Burebista
Pardon? Just who, exactly, do you think made feral? Have you even consider that, since you rolled feral so long ago, that you just happen like feral better? Because I don't care what numbers feral puts out. It is innately unappealing to me.

I actually prefer rogue gameplay to be honest but I also prefer being rewarded for my efforts instead of being average at best due to "rogues not being familiar with combo points" or whatever Blizzard stated about the rogue community.


Yeah, that's fine. The point of this post was to refocus discussion. What, specifically, do you find unappealing? What, specifically, would you like to see changed?

Jokes about l2combo are funny (well, for about a day they were), but they aren't exactly going to lead to changes. :)
There are so few people at the gear level to do Mythic, guilds are going to take their best geared and best skilled players.
Rogue dps isn't exactly broken.. the high end outliers in melee are a little OVER-represented. That doesn't change the fact that the class feels clunky at points and isn't exactly enjoyable at others. Honestly at this point they might as well just make Evis/Enven tied to a short CD and remove combo points all together... The class is entirely a melee DoT class. Combopoints and Finishers are underwhelming.
I'm going to start running logs during my raids. Me and the other rogue are destroying 95% of the others in our raid.

Sims for rogues are off. They have been since MoP. We are running over 100% efficiency in raids. Thats with screwing up rotations every once in awhile and not being able to maintain 100% uptime on the boss which are all factored into efficiency. I feel like I'm only around 90% or lower on fights that I top the charts either because I forget to use abilities or mechanics happen screwing up burst or something. Rogues are simming waaaaaaay lower than their actual output.

Edit: to clear up what I mean... If sims are saying I'm at 100% when I'm really only at 85% that means sims have our potential scaled down making us look good in an actual fight. No one is 104% perfect.
12/12/2014 03:48 AMPosted by Nozomoi
melee DoT class


Ever since into my off spec I did find i do have a better burst windows, but i still dont do alot of dmg. The bleeds is what I feel like I only do.
12/12/2014 05:54 AMPosted by Ragdoll
I'm going to start running logs during my raids. Me and the other rogue are destroying 95% of the others in our raid.
Nice job!

I like the armory links above, it can help me know if I'm doing better or not. : )
This is the frustrating thing. Rogues aren't doing bad damage, especially once we get some gear (as usual). The problem is when you compare the damage to other classes that have overblown damage, we look bad. WW monks are without a doubt, OP. Blizzard is sitting on their hands not dealing with the imbalance issues, which is incredibly frustrating because you know they KNOW something is up but aren't fixing it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=90

If you look at the 90th percentile, these are the best players in the game, and look at rogue placement. Something is very wrong.

I honestly feel like Blizzard is unable to balance us to be competitive for PvE without us unbalancing PvP so they are hoping gear fixes it. The only problem with that is there is no point to give your rogues gear if you have WW monks/ferals/hunters when they can output the damage without all that gear.

TL;DR Blizzard needs to fix the classes that are incredibly OP instead of sitting on their hands and we'll be a in much better spot for mythic progression raiding. We'll still have class issues but at least we won't be sitting on the bench like we are now.
The reason WW is so OP is because most of these fights have more than 1 target so they can abuse the spirit pet things they have. That ability needs to have a cooldown with a duration tied to it.

My raid group actually doesn't have a monk in it. But the only monk I was with was in a pug and I still beat him on the butcher (no adds). He whispered me and said I was the first rogue to ever beat him in damage done.
12/12/2014 07:05 AMPosted by Dextar
This is the frustrating thing. Rogues aren't doing bad damage, especially once we get some gear (as usual). The problem is when you compare the damage to other classes that have overblown damage, we look bad. WW monks are without a doubt, OP. Blizzard is sitting on their hands not dealing with the imbalance issues, which is incredibly frustrating because you know they KNOW something is up but aren't fixing it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=90

If you look at the 90th percentile, these are the best players in the game, and look at rogue placement. Something is very wrong.

I honestly feel like Blizzard is unable to balance us to be competitive for PvE without us unbalancing PvP so they are hoping gear fixes it. The only problem with that is there is no point to give your rogues gear if you have WW monks/ferals/hunters when they can output the damage without all that gear.

TL;DR Blizzard needs to fix the classes that are incredibly OP instead of sitting on their hands and we'll be a in much better spot for mythic progression raiding. We'll still have class issues but at least we won't be sitting on the bench like we are now.


Even if by some miracle the devs actually read these forums nothing will get changed. There are still two sides to the coin a.k.a all the stupid self righteous nerds that refuse to see anything wrong with their class, and until we can stand united on something blizz will never give a !@#$ and just chalk it up to back and forth banter.
I like what you are trying to do Aeriwen but I think there are a couple things you are missing.

First I don't think its accurate to say Exsorsus (the Russian guild) is heavily class stacking. They appear to have a base comp and then make modifications on top of that base comp. It looks somewhat like class stacking but their brakenspore comp has 18 players in common with their ko'ragh comp, butcher has 17 players in common with Ko'ragh. That isn't class stacking necessarily, that is basically how most guilds build raid comps and their base comp just doesn't include a rogue.

Second, jumping from talking about top 10 level guilds to all Mythic parses isn't particularly helpful. Already this week Mythic Kargath has been killed by close to as many guilds as killed heroic imperator last week (872 vs 907). WoWProgress data suggests that Brakenspore (45 kills worldwide) is the first major step up in difficulty.

To try and put some numbers on how rogues are doing in top level mythic guilds I've looked at the average number of rogues per boss for all guilds at least 5/7M (13 at time of writing). I would like to do this more broadly but since I'm doing it by hand that would take a long time. Note that for guilds that weren't fully populated on WoWProgress at the time I did this were excluded.

Butcher: 4/60 =>1.33/20
Ko'rgah: 14/260 => 1.07/20
Tectus: 23/260=>1.76/20
Brakenspore: 13/260 =>1/20
Twin Ogron: 16/260 => 1.23/20

Those numbers don't look great, yes they are skewed somewhat by the guilds that are bringing no rogues but there is also Method with skews high bringing 2-3 rogues per boss.

EDIT: Stupid math error had the numbers as about half of what they actually were. We're looking at a bit over 1 rogue per kill on average.
You guys fail to realize that rogues are also the second least played class in the game. I'm also going to make an assumption (I know I shouldn't) that the rogue class has one of the highest population percentages that only pvps. There may just be less rogues available to raid when compared to other classes.
Yes, I ran into the same issue trying to collect data on the top guilds. I mostly wanted to get two different views at the data and the first part is about specific examples of rogues doing mythic progression, by name.

I'll try to correct any flaws. You know me, If I am wrong, I am wrong and I'll do what I can to correct it. But I don't think it is a clear case to say that rogues are being sat. The strongest case to stack is right now for the world first race. For your average mythic guild, I don't think that is the case, which is why included actual data from warcraftlogs to get a broader view.

The question is are rogues being sat in mythic, and I believe including all data on mythic kills to be more representative of player behavior than the world first race. If that make sense.

I'll post a correction about Exsorsus and your observations about the world first race guilds.
Great post Aeriwen, thanks for taking the time to pick through the numbers and share.

I fully expect to see WW monks toned down this month. But mid-patch nerfs are so, so tricky -- especially when we're still barely more than a week into the first raid of the expansion. Designers need to be pretty dang certain about why WW is too strong (for instance, how much is related to boss fight mechanics, how much to specific WW abilities -- and then within those abilities, how much is related to each one specifically -- and how much to WW's potential synergy with other buffs), and then they need to come up with a solution that will throttle WW back a bit in raids without hurting them in other areas, such as PvP and solo play.

So I'm not surprised we haven't seen changes yet. I will be surprised if they don't come at some point in the relatively near-ish future.

12/12/2014 03:29 AMPosted by Kumar
There are so few people at the gear level to do Mythic, guilds are going to take their best geared and best skilled players.

Maybe, but the highest-end raiding guilds also tend to have way more supply than demand when it comes to people banging at the door to get a slot. I actually think it's the lower levels of difficulty that have the most vested interest in taking in players who are simply good at what they do -- and, as importantly, will actually show up prepared every week.

How many guilds do we know of -- or are we ourselves in -- that have to pug one or more players each week just to get a full group, even with the more flexible raid sizes? How many still struggle because one or more players in their group aren't good at their roles, or don't know the fights, or are bad at heeding instructions? I think skilled players are always prized, at any difficulty level.

At the highest difficulty levels, and at the highest levels of performance within those difficulty levels, *everybody* is skilled, everybody is prepared, everybody knows the fights and their role within them. It's at those extremely high levels where class and spec selection *can* become important, particularly given that very-high-end raiders often have multiple classes geared up and ready to go in case they can give the guild an edge in a particular fight.

So to see rogues so well represented in this first week of mythic so far is... good. :)
Thank you, Aeriwen

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