Rogers ISP, WoW, and you!

Technical Support
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BrianI: In all conversations I've had with Rogers agents on the forums, they maintain they're in contact with Blizzard, but as soon as I ask for the name of the Blizzard employee, and their department, all communication with them ceases.
03/18/2011 8:16 AMPosted by Ressie
BrianI: In all conversations I've had with Rogers agents on the forums, they maintain they're in contact with Blizzard, but as soon as I ask for the name of the Blizzard employee, and their department, all communication with them ceases.


Sadface.

Unfortunately, if they really are 'talking to us', they aren't in contact with the department they need to be. I know I have made this offer many times in the past, but they can email us at forumtech@blizzard.com and a rep will put them in contact with the right people. I have been checking that email address many times a day for the past 3 months, but, alas, nothing ever arrived from them.
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03/18/2011 8:16 AMPosted by Ressie
BrianI: In all conversations I've had with Rogers agents on the forums, they maintain they're in contact with Blizzard, but as soon as I ask for the name of the Blizzard employee, and their department, all communication with them ceases.


I'm an American but perhaps I can take a stab at this.

Does Canada have some sort of "false claims/advertising" or "no BS" law regarding telecoms? I know in the U.S. we have the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) & FTC (Federal Trade Commission) to complain to and that Comcast (a rather large and pervasive ISP here in the States) was successfully sued when they were traffic shaping and LIED about it.

Bear in mind I fully support ALLOWING companies to traffic shape as bandwidth/infrastructure and maintenance all costs real money and current P2P traffic is mostly in the form of ILLEGAL COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT that does exactly what Rogers says, but flat-out lying about doing so could be grounds for a complaint to your local township/city/provincial or even Federal equivalent to our FCC.

In short, if they for some reason WANT to shape/slow/deny gaming traffic that is (and should ALWAYS BE) their right as a private company but LYING about it is a problem. They can choose to shape your (or my) game traffic You can choose to let them know how you feel about such actions and take your business elsewhere.

I remember when Blizzard brought up their RealID-real name fiasco even though they are a US-based corporation they were facing a subpoena before the Canadian Parliament for violating Canadian privacy statutes.

Surely if a local telecom is violating a truth-in-representation statute similar action could be taken?

__________________________________________________________________________________
FIXING-Disconnections, Lag, Log-In Issues
Connection/Latency Issues of all types Come One, Come All
All day 24/7
Just see my mega-thread
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020824261
03/18/2011 8:20 AMPosted by BrianI
BrianI: In all conversations I've had with Rogers agents on the forums, they maintain they're in contact with Blizzard, but as soon as I ask for the name of the Blizzard employee, and their department, all communication with them ceases.


Sadface.

Unfortunately, if they really are 'talking to us', they aren't in contact with the department they need to be. I know I have made this offer many times in the past, but they can email us at forumtech@blizzard.com and a rep will put them in contact with the right people. I have been checking that email address many times a day for the past 3 months, but, alas, nothing ever arrived from them.
________________________________________________
Account and Technical Services || Tues - Sat 645 - 1545 PST
Not seeing a resolution on the forums? Contact a Support Rep directly! - http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/contact.html

Tigers love pepper... they hate cinnamon.
Let me know how I'm doing! :) - http://www.surveymk.com/s/RMW9Y6X


Not trying to be flippant, but did you check the SPAM folder?

__________________________________________________________________________________
FIXING-Disconnections, Lag, Log-In Issues
Connection/Latency Issues of all types Come One, Come All
All day 24/7
Just see my mega-thread
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020824261
03/18/2011 8:33 AMPosted by Drunkinhik
Not trying to be flippant, but did you check the SPAM folder?
That earned a smile, but not quite a laugh. :)
________________________________________________
Account and Technical Services || Tues - Sat 645 - 1545 PST
Not seeing a resolution on the forums? Contact a Support Rep directly! - http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/contact.html

Tigers love pepper... they hate cinnamon.
Let me know how I'm doing! :) - http://www.surveymk.com/s/RMW9Y6X
Drunkin, Canada has the equivalent of the FCC, the CRTC.

I already have a complaint against Rogers with the CRTC regarding packet shaping/throttling gaming traffic (complaint WAS WoW/SC2, but now will include other games as well!), which they have to respond to by the 22nd.

Per CRTC policies, no ISP can throttle/shape time-sensitive traffic, such as gaming, VOIP applications, audio/video, etc, without prior permission from the CRTC. As far as I know, no ISP has that permission.

I know that the CRTC has slapped Rogers with a $10 million false advertising penalty for one of their cellphone carriers, however I don't know if/how much CRTC would care about Rogers lying to their customers in this manner.

I'm beginning to draft a page with proof of their shaping, however I really can't do much until I see Rogers' legal team's response to my complaint, and whether they admit to the shaping, as they have done on their community forums. Everything is on hold until the response in 4 days.

Its easy to find my complaint if you know where to look (DSLReports site -> Rogers forum, OpenMedia.ca website), however due to it having my email address I haven't posted it here.
Drunkin, Canada has the equivalent of the FCC, the CRTC.

I already have a complaint against Rogers with the CRTC regarding packet shaping/throttling gaming traffic (complaint WAS WoW/SC2, but now will include other games as well!), which they have to respond to by the 22nd.

Per CRTC policies, no ISP can throttle/shape time-sensitive traffic, such as gaming, VOIP applications, audio/video, etc, without prior permission from the CRTC. As far as I know, no ISP has that permission.

I know that the CRTC has slapped Rogers with a $10 million false advertising penalty for one of their cellphone carriers, however I don't know if/how much CRTC would care about Rogers lying to their customers in this manner.

I'm beginning to draft a page with proof of their shaping, however I really can't do much until I see Rogers' legal team's response to my complaint, and whether they admit to the shaping, as they have done on their community forums. Everything is on hold until the response in 4 days.

Its easy to find my complaint if you know where to look (DSLReports site -> Rogers forum, OpenMedia.ca website), however due to it having my email address I haven't posted it here.


Perhaps I was a bit unclear, in the U.S. this MIGHT MIGHT be grounds for a breach of contract-type tort under our legal system.

You contract for a SERVICE, in this case internet access which is a service. The contract states that BY CANADIAN LAW they cannot packet shape or otherwise slow access to non-P2P data streams.

Informally poll the rest of the Rogers (and perhaps even Bell.ca folks) on here and other forums, and create a group that could pursue a class-action tort against those companies.

Hey even Blizzard's legal eagles could get in on the action with a joint restraint of trade suit.

"Rogers & Bell.ca's policies are causing us to lose customers and is preventing us from engaging in lawful commerce with Canadian citizens. Worse they are lying about it and we have the records to prove it"

Honestly consider how many customers Blizzard has lost due these issues since patch 4.01 in October of last year. Lawsuits tend to work A LOT faster than government bureaucrats .

As far as posting your responses from the DSLReports site, you can just blank out your email address when you repost it here.


EDIT: To the good Blues who post on here. Could you get your nice website code-monkeys to fix the INCREDIBLY IRRITATING bug where when you post links and then edit said post you get <a href> and </a> tags screwing up the web address.

This has been an issue since the launch of the new forums last November.
__________________________________________________________________________________
FIXING-Disconnections, Lag, Log-In Issues
Connection/Latency Issues of all types Come One, Come All
All day 24/7
Just see my mega-thread
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020824261
Drunkin: Class actions don't really happen here due to pretty much all ISPs having arbitration clauses in the contracts we sign. We make an Internet-related complaint, it gets dealt with. It doesn't, we complain again or drop it. Or we go over their heads to a member of parliament via twitter. Yes, seriously. Via twitter. http://twitter.com/TonyClement_MP

See all the UBB stuff that TonyClement's posted. ;)

CRTC:
Commission staff is in receipt of the attached customer complaint regarding the operation of Roger’s Communications Inc. (Roger’s) Internet traffic management practices (ITMPs) applied to its Internet services using cable modems.

Commission staff notes that in paragraph 125 and 126 of Telecom Regulatory Policy 2009-657, Review of the Internet traffic management practices of Internet service providers, 21 October 2009, the Commission determined that ITMPs that result in a noticeable degradation of time sensitive audio or video traffic require prior Commission approval under section 36 of the Telecommunications Act.

In view of this regulatory requirement, Commission staff requests that the response specifically address the customer’s allegation that the Rogers ITMP incorrectly identifies time sensitive traffic generated by inter-active games as P2P traffic, subjecting such traffic to the ITMP and rendering the games unusable.

Commission staff requests that Rogers provide a response to this complaint by 22 March 2011, with a copy to the complainant.


My complaint was an email in response to another ITMP complaint, where a Rogers customer stated that Rogers was throttling not only the upload (which is allowed), but the download as well (which isn't allowed). That complaint was wrapped upby the CRTC stating they were fine with Rogers' response stating it was the upload choking the download, despite them throttling the upload.

I snipped off the unimportant parts at the end.


I'm writing to you today in regards to Rogers' letter dated yesterday, February 14, 2011 in which Mr. Thompson states the issue with slow P2P downloads is the application itself, and NOT their throttling practices. To be blunt, it’s a pack of lies.

How do I know this? Because I've been affected by this (along with MANY other Rogers users) because Rogers' filters are picking up several very low bandwidth-intensive games incorrectly as P2P activity. Provided these games are fully patched, they can play on a dialup connection with minimal issues, and uses approximately 100-200MB of your monthly cap (as stated by a game manufacturer employee, on the game's public forums). It’s really not that much considering a single Netflix video in HD is 4GB. These games are time-sensitive applications (such as VOIP is), and like any time-sensitive application will lose connection if throttled, which is why they aren't supposed to be throttled. There are even now reports on the Rogers section of DSLReports.com of Rogers throttling Skype, a VOIP application.

Essentially if the upload were throttled, Rogers users would have difficulties sending chat in-game (along with many other issues popping up), and other users wouldn't see these Rogers' customers activities. If the download were throttled, we'd be seeing increased latency in-game (ie, a delay in game actions, making it more difficult to actually play) and disconnections. Unfortunately we can't even see the throttled upload, as the throttling on the download causes a disconnection to the applications way too quickly, and in many cases, it’s an instant disconnection as soon as you connect to the game server. Add to this, running a VPN (which encrypts/masks your traffic so Rogers can't see what it is, so can't tell that it should be shaping it) allows the game to run with no problems.

Since November (approximately the same time as Justin McKillican complained to the CRTC regarding download speeds in P2P applications being throttled) users have been complaining to Rogers about disconnections and latency increases, making gaming in World of Warcraft and Starcraft 2 impossible to do during peak periods (which just happens to be when Rogers shapes traffic). Unfortunately, nothing was done because Rogers Tier 1 Tech Support workers refused to open service tickets to actually look into the issue, and to add to this, they vehemently denied Rogers was throttling/packet shaping at all to customers, despite the ITMP stating (at the time) they did indeed throttle P2P uploads.

A Rogers PR employee admitted to mistakenly throttling non-P2P connections on the DSLReports website back in October:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24994463-

As you can see from responses, their throttling is not just limited to upstream, but also affects downstream (download speeds). Since October however, it’s not been fixed.

Rogers employees on their own forums have been stating that these games use P2P to run, which is why they're being throttled, and that the game manufacturer needs to change the game. Add to this, Rogers employees have been telling us gamers to disable any P2P, wait 10 minutes, and try the game again. (For the record, these games do NOT use P2P, never have and never will.) I see this as a CLEAR indication that they're knowingly throttling up/down stream of the entire connection while P2P is active, whether it really IS active, or they just think it is.

I don't use P2P at ALL, and yet I'm still affected by this issue because Rogers sees my gaming traffic incorrectly as P2P.

Also, why is it that users who were on Rogers (who throttles), and switch to Teksavvy Cable (using Rogers lines, but doesn't throttle) can suddenly play the game with absolutely NO problems, when previously the user couldn't stay connected to the game for more than 5 minutes at a stretch.

With everything stated above, it’s clear that Rogers is throttling the downstream of the entire connection when P2P is active. They're lying about it to their customers, they're lying about it to the CRTC.


Obviously Blizzard can see something wrong with the incoming flow of packets for Rogers customers. Otherwise they wouldn't still be attempting to contact Rogers.

Also, using wireshark, we can see multiple duplicate ACKs & ACK requests (upstream and downstream), which clearly shows they're throttling both.
Thankfully, I just received an update that your ISP should be in contact with our Network Operations Center on Monday. Unfortunately, I will not be available to post anymore updates, but I am sure another forum representative will keep things current.

My fingers are crossed for you all. :)
________________________________________________
Account and Technical Services || Tues - Sat 645 - 1545 PST
Not seeing a resolution on the forums? Contact a Support Rep directly! - http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/contact.html

Tigers love pepper... they hate cinnamon.
Let me know how I'm doing! :) - http://www.surveymk.com/s/RMW9Y6X
Heh.. I sent them another nice Private Message on their forums immediately following your message here from 4 hrs ago..


Thank you Brian for all you've done for us.. Its very appreciated.
Heh.. I sent them another nice Private Message on their forums immediately following your message here from 4 hrs ago..


Thank you Brian for all you've done for us.. Its very appreciated.

It has been my pleasure. :)
________________________________________________
Account and Technical Services || Tues - Sat 645 - 1545 PST
Not seeing a resolution on the forums? Contact a Support Rep directly! - http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/contact.html

Tigers love pepper... they hate cinnamon.
Let me know how I'm doing! :) - http://www.surveymk.com/s/RMW9Y6X
I wanted to take a moment to thank both Brian and Reesie for all their work on this issue.
I'm waiting to see what the 22nd of March brings but have already contacted teksavvy if the issue isn't resolved by the end of the month.

I wouldn't have known the truth about whats been happening if it weren't for both of you.

I hope that everyone who has been reading these threads will take a few minutes to fill out the survey under Brian's signature and let Blizz know how much we appreciate him and Reesie.

Ally
Thank you for all of your kind words. I know that I wasn't able to offer much in this particular case, but I tried to do all I could over the last 6 months.

The real heroes here are the regulars and MVPs, fighting for everyone in ways that we never could. Thank you, one and all, for all of your blood, sweat, tears, and broken keyboards. They are the ones who deserve all of your accolades and appreciation. They are the ones who truly make this the great community that it is.

/bows humbly.

o/

-42
________________________________________________
Account and Technical Services || Tues - Sat 645 - 1545 PST
Not seeing a resolution on the forums? Contact a Support Rep directly! - http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/contact.html

Tigers love pepper... they hate cinnamon.
Let me know how I'm doing! :) - http://www.surveymk.com/s/RMW9Y6X
Much loves to you, Brian, from the CSF gang. :)
It was great providing support with you, Brian! You're a very intelligent man and did what you could for this game's players. Rogers is a stubborn bunch, and I'm sure your working with them made at least some progress. Rome wasn't built in a day, after all!

We'll catch you around, Brian. Best of luck to you!
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Actually, all of us regulars knew about it and were helping the best we could with getting the problem narrowed down. (and suffering thru Ressie's rants in IRC...=D)
03/19/2011 9:32 AMPosted by Cupcaké
Actually, all of us regulars knew about it and were helping the best we could with getting the problem narrowed down. (and suffering thru Ressie's rants in IRC...=D)


*coughs*

>.>
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For live support, http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=wowtech
03/19/2011 9:33 AMPosted by Ressie
Actually, all of us regulars knew about it and were helping the best we could with getting the problem narrowed down. (and suffering thru Ressie's rants in IRC...=D)


*coughs*

>.>
________________________________________________
Technical Support MVP
For live support, http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=wowtech


<3

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